RE: UK (finally) registers millionth electric vehicle
Discussion
Nomme de Plum said:
stavers said:
Not sure what EV you have but my 308 diesel estate cost me £1875 over the same distance (I did closer to 30k miles but have worked out the per mile cost and then factored it for 8k). Considering that included a set of 4 Michelin tyres that doesn't seem a huge additional on-cost to not have an EV on the drive - especically since I can't have a home charger and the boot is bigger than most EVs I've looked at.
If I was only doing 8k I'd go back to my 308 GTi which was about £2200 for that mileage (again, including tyres). But it's horses for courses.
I'll never have an EV on drive but I can see the appeal. The big thing for me is that we're being forced in to them to appear 'green' when we refuse to tackle the actual route causes of overpopulation & consumerism.
We do not have overpopulation but consumerism is a slightly different issue. If I was only doing 8k I'd go back to my 308 GTi which was about £2200 for that mileage (again, including tyres). But it's horses for courses.
I'll never have an EV on drive but I can see the appeal. The big thing for me is that we're being forced in to them to appear 'green' when we refuse to tackle the actual route causes of overpopulation & consumerism.
The CO2 into the atmosphere has been produced until recently by a small minority of the global population. Surely we can hardly deny other developing nations a better standard of living including eduction and healthcare.
When anyone will, be able to buy a shiny new ICE up to 2035 and also buy used thereafter I fail to see how you can reconcile that with being forced into EVs. I trust you understand that emissions cause damage to peoples health and especially children's brain development.
Guybrush said:
CO2 isn't even a problem, in fact we need more of it. There's only a tiny 0.04% in the atmosphere and 97% of that is there by natural causes. If there's more, the planet will green quicker, but if our climate cools (as it has done before by natural causes), then CO2 will be absorbed by the oceans and greening will reduce (i.e. plants suffer). However, if the planet warms naturally (as it has done before by natural causes), then CO2 will be released by the oceans. (This is how natural cause deniers try to fool people, by saying " look, the planet's warming and CO2 is increasing", when the warming (or cooling) comes first with a lag of about 800 years for CO2 concentrations to increase or reduce respectively.)
There is a climate science thread where you can take your assertions and see how long they hold up. If I need some further clarification I discuss with mate who has Physics and Meteorology degrees. Nomme de Plum said:
bodhi said:
I've spent some time in a standard i3 and didn't find it a hoot unfortunately - on faster roads it felt downright dangerous at times with dodgy suspension and skinny tyres - and have no wish to drive one ever again.
Can't help thinking the Cooper SE would have been more fun if they'd left the shared components where they are in the i3 - mainly having the motor driving the rear wheels.
I've driven a few EVs now and whilst they are perfectly pleasant, I always preferred the drive home in one of my ICE cars. Can't say I'd be in a hurry to add to the 1 million people who've bought one on the driving experience.
I've driven a few now and clearly the stand out one is the Taycan 4S I had. It handled well and went like a rocket. Can't help thinking the Cooper SE would have been more fun if they'd left the shared components where they are in the i3 - mainly having the motor driving the rear wheels.
I've driven a few EVs now and whilst they are perfectly pleasant, I always preferred the drive home in one of my ICE cars. Can't say I'd be in a hurry to add to the 1 million people who've bought one on the driving experience.
I love my i3s but will change the springs and damping at some point. I do't have an issue with the tyres which in anywise are wider on the s but understand Goodyear are a better option. The EV is faster and quieter than an equivalently powered ICE and the low CoG and polar moment makes a big difference to handling.
With a few exceptions the car industry has become very lazy when it comes to performance cars. The general approach just being to throw more horsepower at things. The EV sector has been particularly obsessed with HP in the past and only recently seems to have realised range and speed to charge matter more to most people.
I was watching a review of the MG4 X power on fully charged last night and was very surprised that the reviewer Jack Scarlett seemed to share my sentiment. He concluded that loads of horsepower and straight line speed was a bit pointless and didn't make a car fun. He compared it to some weird looking little 356/Nissan Figaro looking EV which he said just nailed fun.
I'm looking forward to the Ioniq 5 N possibly nailing it but I still fear they've just chucked a load of horsepower into the formula when just adding the fun bits to the current model would have been perfect.
J4CKO said:
I mean, if EV's were the norm, would anyone invent piston engines ? imagine that design meeting "we have developed a powertrain thats noisier, a third as efficient and burns oil based fuel which produces various unpleasant emissions, and even better its got loads more moving parts that slop around in yet more oil !, It even has at least five final drive ratios to make the most of the narrow power band."
Agree that does make ICE sound very very silly.However, the scene you painted did make me think of the scene in Madmen when he pitched his idea for the carousel to Kodak. Imagine saying all you've posted above and signing off with "and this is how it sounds..." a large screen at one end of the darkened room then plays cinematic advert for the R8 V10 in full Dolby Atmos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suRDUFpsHus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XflP9D53slY
It does make me wonder what will become of the likes of Ferrari & Lamborghini in our EV future. Will they really be able to charge as much for a product that is marginally quicker than some family saloons and has a motor/battery that will probably never fire those emotions in anyone? Luxury brands will still be luxury but there's a reason a Quartz Rolex or Omega isn't worth much.
Edited by nunpuncher on Wednesday 7th February 18:50
Nomme de Plum said:
We do not have overpopulation but consumerism is a slightly different issue.
The CO2 into the atmosphere has been produced until recently by a small minority of the global population. Surely we can hardly deny other developing nations a better standard of living including eduction and healthcare.
We have both, overpopulation and consumerism.The CO2 into the atmosphere has been produced until recently by a small minority of the global population. Surely we can hardly deny other developing nations a better standard of living including eduction and healthcare.
The truth is that it's just totally impossible for the billions living in the developping countries to reach just half the level of the wealth we have in western europe. The burden on climate and ressources would be tremendous.
About china, still room to grow:
"On 28 May 2020, Li Keqiang, the Premier of China, said that "China has over 600 million people whose monthly income is barely 1,000 yuan (USD 140)"
About demography
In nigeria alone (210 millions habitants, X4 in 50 years), there are more births than in the whole europe (740 millions habitants including russia). Pakistan alone has almost as many births as europe (6.3 millions vs 6,8). Projected Pakistan population in 2050, 367 millions (vs 80 in 1980)...
260 habitants per km2 in 2021 in Pakistan vs 107 in france for example.
ICE cars are evil but kerosen fueled planes are totally ok it seems:
"Airbus forecasts that demand for passenger traffic will grow annually by 3.6% (2019-2042 CAGR - Compound Annual Growth Rate) over the next 20 years. Airbus forecasts a demand for 40,850 new passenger and freighter aircraft deliveries over the next 20 years"
"India’s Union Minister for Finance and Corporate Affairs Nirmala Sitharaman has announced that 100 additional airports will be developed in the country by 2024." (2020)
Edited by blistacompact on Wednesday 7th February 21:35
V 02 said:
The Taycan is considered one of the best to drive cars today full stop, let alone best to drive EV, that’s some high praise.
As it should when the average Taycan costs over £100k and it’s billed as a sports saloon.I’ve not driven one but they say its depreciation is nearly as fast as its acceleration.
.
stavers said:
Not sure what EV you have but my 308 diesel estate cost me £1875 over the same distance (I did closer to 30k miles but have worked out the per mile cost and then factored it for 8k). Considering that included a set of 4 Michelin tyres that doesn't seem a huge additional on-cost to not have an EV on the drive - especically since I can't have a home charger and the boot is bigger than most EVs I've looked at.
If I was only doing 8k I'd go back to my 308 GTi which was about £2200 for that mileage (again, including tyres). But it's horses for courses.
I'll never have an EV on drive but I can see the appeal. The big thing for me is that we're being forced in to them to appear 'green' when we refuse to tackle the actual route causes of overpopulation & consumerism.
I've done 9,000 mile in my EV over the last 12 month. If I was only doing 8k I'd go back to my 308 GTi which was about £2200 for that mileage (again, including tyres). But it's horses for courses.
I'll never have an EV on drive but I can see the appeal. The big thing for me is that we're being forced in to them to appear 'green' when we refuse to tackle the actual route causes of overpopulation & consumerism.
Excluding tyres it's cost me £335. That's electricity, an MOT and a brake fluid changes (no servicing required).
If I include tyres, then it would be £1,335. But, for context, those were all Michelin Pilotsport S, so £250 a tyre.
If I compare that the last 12 month of having a BMW 330i, that cost £4,480. That included servicing, extended warranty, VED, set of tyres and fuel.
Nomme de Plum said:
monkfish1 said:
simonrockman said:
Mafioso said:
Surely nobody in their right mind actually buys an EV? I assume most on the road are fleet vehicles or leased?
There is something magic about EVs that turns even the most dedicated car nut into an accountant. Watch this thread, and even on Pistonheads, it will be about cost per pile, BIK, residual value.
There will be nothing about low centre of mass, torque, or driving pleasure. And this is Pistonheads not Money Supermarket.
As they say there are none so blind.
Rapid, sure, great handling, that too. A hoot to drive. No. Just no.
Those two features alone dont make it good driving car from which one can gain driving enjoyment.
ajap1979 said:
monkfish1 said:
simonrockman said:
Mafioso said:
Surely nobody in their right mind actually buys an EV? I assume most on the road are fleet vehicles or leased?
There is something magic about EVs that turns even the most dedicated car nut into an accountant. Watch this thread, and even on Pistonheads, it will be about cost per pile, BIK, residual value.
There will be nothing about low centre of mass, torque, or driving pleasure. And this is Pistonheads not Money Supermarket.
But thats not really what this is about is it.
monkfish1 said:
Nomme de Plum said:
monkfish1 said:
simonrockman said:
Mafioso said:
Surely nobody in their right mind actually buys an EV? I assume most on the road are fleet vehicles or leased?
There is something magic about EVs that turns even the most dedicated car nut into an accountant. Watch this thread, and even on Pistonheads, it will be about cost per pile, BIK, residual value.
There will be nothing about low centre of mass, torque, or driving pleasure. And this is Pistonheads not Money Supermarket.
As they say there are none so blind.
Rapid, sure, great handling, that too. A hoot to drive. No. Just no.
Those two features alone dont make it good driving car from which one can gain driving enjoyment.
Guybrush said:
CO2 isn't even a problem, in fact we need more of it. There's only a tiny 0.04% in the atmosphere and 97% of that is there by natural causes. If there's more, the planet will green quicker, but if our climate cools (as it has done before by natural causes), then CO2 will be absorbed by the oceans and greening will reduce (i.e. plants suffer). However, if the planet warms naturally (as it has done before by natural causes), then CO2 will be released by the oceans. (This is how natural cause deniers try to fool people, by saying " look, the planet's warming and CO2 is increasing", when the warming (or cooling) comes first with a lag of about 800 years for CO2 concentrations to increase or reduce respectively.)
It's extraordinarily remiss of all those tens of thousands of highly qualified physicists and atmospheric scientists, whose day job is to collect, model and analyse the data, to have all missed such a straightforward point. Or are they all "natural cause deniers"?You should write to the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change and let them know your thoughts.
TheBinarySheep said:
stavers said:
Not sure what EV you have but my 308 diesel estate cost me £1875 over the same distance (I did closer to 30k miles but have worked out the per mile cost and then factored it for 8k). Considering that included a set of 4 Michelin tyres that doesn't seem a huge additional on-cost to not have an EV on the drive - especically since I can't have a home charger and the boot is bigger than most EVs I've looked at.
If I was only doing 8k I'd go back to my 308 GTi which was about £2200 for that mileage (again, including tyres). But it's horses for courses.
I'll never have an EV on drive but I can see the appeal. The big thing for me is that we're being forced in to them to appear 'green' when we refuse to tackle the actual route causes of overpopulation & consumerism.
I've done 9,000 mile in my EV over the last 12 month. If I was only doing 8k I'd go back to my 308 GTi which was about £2200 for that mileage (again, including tyres). But it's horses for courses.
I'll never have an EV on drive but I can see the appeal. The big thing for me is that we're being forced in to them to appear 'green' when we refuse to tackle the actual route causes of overpopulation & consumerism.
Excluding tyres it's cost me £335. That's electricity, an MOT and a brake fluid changes (no servicing required).
If I include tyres, then it would be £1,335. But, for context, those were all Michelin Pilotsport S, so £250 a tyre.
If I compare that the last 12 month of having a BMW 330i, that cost £4,480. That included servicing, extended warranty, VED, set of tyres and fuel.
monkfish1 said:
Nomme de Plum said:
monkfish1 said:
simonrockman said:
Mafioso said:
Surely nobody in their right mind actually buys an EV? I assume most on the road are fleet vehicles or leased?
There is something magic about EVs that turns even the most dedicated car nut into an accountant. Watch this thread, and even on Pistonheads, it will be about cost per pile, BIK, residual value.
There will be nothing about low centre of mass, torque, or driving pleasure. And this is Pistonheads not Money Supermarket.
As they say there are none so blind.
Rapid, sure, great handling, that too. A hoot to drive. No. Just no.
Those two features alone dont make it good driving car from which one can gain driving enjoyment.
I swopped out a Macan GTS for Taycan 4S as the latter was simply better to me.
This is my opinion and you are welcome to yours but I wonder how many miles you have done in the Taycan to come to your conclusion?
To me it would be like looking at a menu in a good restaurant and saying a particular choice is going to be rubbish.
Edited by Nomme de Plum on Thursday 8th February 10:47
monkfish1 said:
You are welcome, of course.
Rapid, sure, great handling, that too. A hoot to drive. No. Just no.
Those two features alone dont make it good driving car from which one can gain driving enjoyment.
What you describe is old cars (yours) versus new cars. The vast majority of today's ICE cars offer no more driving enjoyment than their EV equivalents. Rapid, sure, great handling, that too. A hoot to drive. No. Just no.
Those two features alone dont make it good driving car from which one can gain driving enjoyment.
nunpuncher said:
I drove my friends Taycan 4S. It was fast as hell but ultimately not much fun for me. Drove a model 3 performance and came away thinking the same. I think I'm a bit odd though, I got tired of my 911tt very quickly and went back to a much slower, older Carrera as it was more my idea of fun.
With a few exceptions the car industry has become very lazy when it comes to performance cars. The general approach just being to throw more horsepower at things. The EV sector has been particularly obsessed with HP in the past and only recently seems to have realised range and speed to charge matter more to most people.
I was watching a review of the MG4 X power on fully charged last night and was very surprised that the reviewer Jack Scarlett seemed to share my sentiment. He concluded that loads of horsepower and straight line speed was a bit pointless and didn't make a car fun. He compared it to some weird looking little 356/Nissan Figaro looking EV which he said just nailed fun.
I'm looking forward to the Ioniq 5 N possibly nailing it but I still fear they've just chucked a load of horsepower into the formula when just adding the fun bits to the current model would have been perfect.
I understand where you are coming from but many do not want to own an extra car just for fun. It's either just not that important or outside the cost limits. With a few exceptions the car industry has become very lazy when it comes to performance cars. The general approach just being to throw more horsepower at things. The EV sector has been particularly obsessed with HP in the past and only recently seems to have realised range and speed to charge matter more to most people.
I was watching a review of the MG4 X power on fully charged last night and was very surprised that the reviewer Jack Scarlett seemed to share my sentiment. He concluded that loads of horsepower and straight line speed was a bit pointless and didn't make a car fun. He compared it to some weird looking little 356/Nissan Figaro looking EV which he said just nailed fun.
I'm looking forward to the Ioniq 5 N possibly nailing it but I still fear they've just chucked a load of horsepower into the formula when just adding the fun bits to the current model would have been perfect.
EVs give people the opportunity to drive a car which has both functionality and performance. The Taycan just happens to handle really well which is a bonus, Is it like my track focused Exige S1, no of course not but in the real world it's faster.
Do EVs need got be so powerful? Well some of that is related to the capacity to regenerate as the more that can be harvested the more efficient the car will be. There is no obligation to use all the available kWs under on't right foot and may be able to be set in Eco -mode which limits performance.
From my perspective now I do so little mileage an EV works really well. I can walk to the places that matter in terms of my real passion and I know the car can sit until I need it.
Remember people will be able to buy a shiny new ICE right up until 2035.
Miserablegit said:
One thing we don’t need are further tax breaks or further taxpayer funding for EVs. I say this as somebody who is looking at buying an EV because of the tax breaks.
If you're buying then tax breaks are few and far between. Private buyers don't get any perks at this time. Hence the suggestion to cute the rate of VAT.Evanivitch said:
Miserablegit said:
One thing we don’t need are further tax breaks or further taxpayer funding for EVs. I say this as somebody who is looking at buying an EV because of the tax breaks.
If you're buying then tax breaks are few and far between. Private buyers don't get any perks at this time. Hence the suggestion to cute the rate of VAT.It's contributed to the rapid depreciation which in turn has made private buyers cautious. I would also imagine it's made PCP figures less attractive even on the cheaper EVs due to low expected GFV. If that continues could that start impacting company buyers? In any case it seems like it has created a used market that is top heavy with the wrong type of cars.
If they had balanced the tax break for company buyers better then they could have used the cash to continue to fund the grant for private buyers. Sure, it might have meant slower adoption but would that really have been a bad thing? Create natural time for infrastructure to develop. And prevent used cars hitting the market in swathes.
I just don't think halving VAT is going to cut it for most private buyers. it's a decent saving on a Taycan or similar but it'll only just cover charger installation on something like an e208 (not sure if that's included in the price). It's also still a drop in the ocean compared to the company/fleet buyer savings, less than the grant they abolished in 2022 and looks pretty rubbish compared to the 35% you can get off an electric motorcycle.
It's starting to look like all of this could have went better without the government creating a top heavy market. The EVs we have now suit the vast majority of private buyers much better than an ICE so why are they still buying ICEs? Is it habit, pricing, lack of understanding??
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