Discussion
havoc said:
Something like this in the boot of a Womble-mobile / Trafpol estate DOES seem like a sensible plan...gets around at least two of the "we can't move it guv'nor" excuses. Low-nose jack plus some sort of cradle (or an all-in-one?) and you could have most cars (OK, not EVs apparently) off the road in 5 minutes.
About that...WTF ref. electric cars being unable to be towed? Exactly how is that reasonable design for modern roads? I get that they're far more 'direct drive' than an ICE with a gearbox, but...
- Is there genuinely no way of de-coupling the motors from the wheels? Surely that can't be beyond the wit of engineers?
- Given you can dial right back the brake regen on an EV (and acknowledging the increased drag even so on the tow vehicle), where's the difference between being towed and coasting, from the EV's perspective*?
- As EVs get older and start encountering more borkage, are we going to see a substantial increase in hold ups on our roads where an EV has just died at traffic lights / in the middle of the M1 / etc. and can't be moved until the AA/RAC etc. arrive an hour later, realise it's an EV and send for a flatbed, which then takes another hour.
* OK, if there's a general system failure then I can see there might be headaches.
They do have and use skids to move stuff out of the way, they can drag hybrids and EV's a very short distance unless they have been accident damaged.About that...WTF ref. electric cars being unable to be towed? Exactly how is that reasonable design for modern roads? I get that they're far more 'direct drive' than an ICE with a gearbox, but...
- Is there genuinely no way of de-coupling the motors from the wheels? Surely that can't be beyond the wit of engineers?
- Given you can dial right back the brake regen on an EV (and acknowledging the increased drag even so on the tow vehicle), where's the difference between being towed and coasting, from the EV's perspective*?
- As EVs get older and start encountering more borkage, are we going to see a substantial increase in hold ups on our roads where an EV has just died at traffic lights / in the middle of the M1 / etc. and can't be moved until the AA/RAC etc. arrive an hour later, realise it's an EV and send for a flatbed, which then takes another hour.
* OK, if there's a general system failure then I can see there might be headaches.
Rough101 said:
All responses with folk with modern automatics to include how to get the car into neutral mechanically and to over ride the hold and/or electric parking brake.
The gearbox is easy but on mine if the power is gone the handbrake can't be released. If you cant get jump leads on it the fix is to get underneath and start undoing bolts, not the sort of thing you'd want to be doing on an active motorway.CLK-GTR said:
The gearbox is easy but on mine if the power is gone the handbrake can't be released. If you cant get jump leads on it the fix is to get underneath and start undoing bolts, not the sort of thing you'd want to be doing on an active motorway.
My transmission release is under a door, under the the passenger side mat, it needs power if the handbrake has locked up and even then, you need to lock the drivers seatbelt.Tl:Dr Having been on the receiving end of highways England help this week, I think they do a good job.
Longer version:
My bike broke down on the M23 smart section, and one car blocked traffic whilst the either arranged cones around his xc90 and my bike. (Obviously he couldn't tow my bike)
This then kept me slightly safer than I had been, until their tow truck chap turned up, though a fair number of drivers passed red X's to cut right in in front of his cones.
I was watching the guy put more cones out with traffic going past, and he would walk out across the lane perpendicularly, put the cone down, backtrack to the kerb, then along the kerb a few paces, walk out to the edge, put the cone down, back to the kerb, and so on.
Whilst it increased the time it took by X3, it's obviously been mandated that way because it is safer, and reduces the risk to the officer of a car cutting over the "last" cone.
Whilst standing around, this made me think about (and appreciate) the level of policy and training the chaps have to follow, just to do apparently "simple" things.
So I would doubt their job description gives them flexibility to just put a rope around the front and drag something.
(Off topic)
What their JD does give them is authority to get a statutory removal. I don't think this is well known about generally, but vehicles breaking down will face anywhere between £192 to £6k for removal, (plus storage fees if you can't/won't pay as unless you pay then and there you ain't getting your vehicle back).
Apparently over £25m a year is paid. Given general taxation pays for road repair, street lighting and highways England itself, I did wonder whether statutory removal should be free at point of use?
But is has basically become a breakdown tax, and my own breakdown company could only pick up the batten from the services I was taken to. Apparently this income has increased a lot since smart motorways became "smart".
All in all, I think highways people did a good job, and was glad to have them turn up, and it shouldn't need the police.
But I don't blame them for being risk averse, seeing how risky their job is.
Longer version:
My bike broke down on the M23 smart section, and one car blocked traffic whilst the either arranged cones around his xc90 and my bike. (Obviously he couldn't tow my bike)
This then kept me slightly safer than I had been, until their tow truck chap turned up, though a fair number of drivers passed red X's to cut right in in front of his cones.
I was watching the guy put more cones out with traffic going past, and he would walk out across the lane perpendicularly, put the cone down, backtrack to the kerb, then along the kerb a few paces, walk out to the edge, put the cone down, back to the kerb, and so on.
Whilst it increased the time it took by X3, it's obviously been mandated that way because it is safer, and reduces the risk to the officer of a car cutting over the "last" cone.
Whilst standing around, this made me think about (and appreciate) the level of policy and training the chaps have to follow, just to do apparently "simple" things.
So I would doubt their job description gives them flexibility to just put a rope around the front and drag something.
(Off topic)
What their JD does give them is authority to get a statutory removal. I don't think this is well known about generally, but vehicles breaking down will face anywhere between £192 to £6k for removal, (plus storage fees if you can't/won't pay as unless you pay then and there you ain't getting your vehicle back).
Apparently over £25m a year is paid. Given general taxation pays for road repair, street lighting and highways England itself, I did wonder whether statutory removal should be free at point of use?
But is has basically become a breakdown tax, and my own breakdown company could only pick up the batten from the services I was taken to. Apparently this income has increased a lot since smart motorways became "smart".
All in all, I think highways people did a good job, and was glad to have them turn up, and it shouldn't need the police.
But I don't blame them for being risk averse, seeing how risky their job is.
NomduJour said:
If you hook a Discovery to the front of something and put it in low range, pretty certain most things will follow it, stuck in drive or not.
Just out of interest, if it was your vehicle they towed and caused a few £k worth of damage to it, would you pay up yourself or put a claim in against them?7mike said:
NomduJour said:
If you hook a Discovery to the front of something and put it in low range, pretty certain most things will follow it, stuck in drive or not.
Just out of interest, if it was your vehicle they towed and caused a few £k worth of damage to it, would you pay up yourself or put a claim in against them?
I’d suggest shifting things asap by whatever means necessary to avoid potential crashes further back or on the opposite side of the road would make most sense, and I wouldn’t allow compo claims either - your insurers should cover it.
Add up the wasted man hours (and the carbon emissions if you’re one of.. them) in a queue of motorway traffic and it should be obvious - stop traffic, chuck problem onto hard shoulder/into field/whatever and get things moving asap. Come back at 2 am and allow owners insurers/recovery to retrieve.
“EVs can’t be towed” is far too broad a comment. Some can, some can even be tow-charged.
From the Tesla Model 3 handbook:
To activate Transport Mode:
1) Ensure Model 3 is in Park.
2) Chock the tires or make sure Model 3 is secure.
3) Press and hold the brake pedal, then on the touchscreen, touch Controls > Service > Towing. The touchscreen displays a message reminding you how to properly transport Model 3.
4) Press the Transport Mode button. You can tell Transport Mode is enabled because this button is blue. Model 3 is now free-rolling and can slowly be rolled (no faster than walking speed) or winched.
To cancel Transport Mode, shift Model 3 into Park.
From the Tesla Model 3 handbook:
To activate Transport Mode:
1) Ensure Model 3 is in Park.
2) Chock the tires or make sure Model 3 is secure.
3) Press and hold the brake pedal, then on the touchscreen, touch Controls > Service > Towing. The touchscreen displays a message reminding you how to properly transport Model 3.
4) Press the Transport Mode button. You can tell Transport Mode is enabled because this button is blue. Model 3 is now free-rolling and can slowly be rolled (no faster than walking speed) or winched.
To cancel Transport Mode, shift Model 3 into Park.
NomduJour said:
If you hook a Discovery to the front of something and put it in low range, pretty certain most things will follow it, stuck in drive or not.
Yes, I pulled a full up sprinter out of a ditch with my rangie in low with the diffs locked on a wet road, it spun one wheel a tiny amount and then just drove it out. It did bend the towing hook of my emergency tow rope which was a bit scary as I don’t fancy that coming through my back window at speed.gazza285 said:
Massive traffic congestion today on the M62 near the M621 junction at Birstall, there was a car that has broken down in lane three. Wombles in attendance, closing both lanes three and four, with traffic backed up for a good few miles, and very slow progress.
It brought to mind the 1979 documentary on the Windy Hill section of the M62, where the old boy coppers would have hooked the car up to the Range Rover and dragged it out of the live lanes, fifty yards would have taken them to the J27 slip road, where there is a hard shoulder.
What would be the reason for not instigating a temporary stop and moving the car?
Did it *really* make a significant delay to your journey ? . What would you have done with all those valuable minutes ?It brought to mind the 1979 documentary on the Windy Hill section of the M62, where the old boy coppers would have hooked the car up to the Range Rover and dragged it out of the live lanes, fifty yards would have taken them to the J27 slip road, where there is a hard shoulder.
What would be the reason for not instigating a temporary stop and moving the car?
Presumably, if it was a person seriously ill/dying in the car you would have still been so upset at the delay to your day?
People just need to chill out more when driving, there's far too many idiots on the road already.
Ian Geary said:
Tl:Dr Having been on the receiving end of highways England help this week, I think they do a good job.
Longer version:
My bike broke down on the M23 smart section, and one car blocked traffic whilst the either arranged cones around his xc90 and my bike. (Obviously he couldn't tow my bike)
This then kept me slightly safer than I had been, until their tow truck chap turned up, though a fair number of drivers passed red X's to cut right in in front of his cones.
I was watching the guy put more cones out with traffic going past, and he would walk out across the lane perpendicularly, put the cone down, backtrack to the kerb, then along the kerb a few paces, walk out to the edge, put the cone down, back to the kerb, and so on.
Whilst it increased the time it took by X3, it's obviously been mandated that way because it is safer, and reduces the risk to the officer of a car cutting over the "last" cone.
Whilst standing around, this made me think about (and appreciate) the level of policy and training the chaps have to follow, just to do apparently "simple" things.
So I would doubt their job description gives them flexibility to just put a rope around the front and drag something.
(Off topic)
What their JD does give them is authority to get a statutory removal. I don't think this is well known about generally, but vehicles breaking down will face anywhere between £192 to £6k for removal, (plus storage fees if you can't/won't pay as unless you pay then and there you ain't getting your vehicle back).
Apparently over £25m a year is paid. Given general taxation pays for road repair, street lighting and highways England itself, I did wonder whether statutory removal should be free at point of use?
But is has basically become a breakdown tax, and my own breakdown company could only pick up the batten from the services I was taken to. Apparently this income has increased a lot since smart motorways became "smart".
All in all, I think highways people did a good job, and was glad to have them turn up, and it shouldn't need the police.
But I don't blame them for being risk averse, seeing how risky their job is.
So if you have cover with the AA/RAC/whoever else you still have to pay them to come and put cones around your car should you breakdown on one of the smart motorways nobody wanted in the first place? I had always assumed they were a free service like the police would be if they got there first.Longer version:
My bike broke down on the M23 smart section, and one car blocked traffic whilst the either arranged cones around his xc90 and my bike. (Obviously he couldn't tow my bike)
This then kept me slightly safer than I had been, until their tow truck chap turned up, though a fair number of drivers passed red X's to cut right in in front of his cones.
I was watching the guy put more cones out with traffic going past, and he would walk out across the lane perpendicularly, put the cone down, backtrack to the kerb, then along the kerb a few paces, walk out to the edge, put the cone down, back to the kerb, and so on.
Whilst it increased the time it took by X3, it's obviously been mandated that way because it is safer, and reduces the risk to the officer of a car cutting over the "last" cone.
Whilst standing around, this made me think about (and appreciate) the level of policy and training the chaps have to follow, just to do apparently "simple" things.
So I would doubt their job description gives them flexibility to just put a rope around the front and drag something.
(Off topic)
What their JD does give them is authority to get a statutory removal. I don't think this is well known about generally, but vehicles breaking down will face anywhere between £192 to £6k for removal, (plus storage fees if you can't/won't pay as unless you pay then and there you ain't getting your vehicle back).
Apparently over £25m a year is paid. Given general taxation pays for road repair, street lighting and highways England itself, I did wonder whether statutory removal should be free at point of use?
But is has basically become a breakdown tax, and my own breakdown company could only pick up the batten from the services I was taken to. Apparently this income has increased a lot since smart motorways became "smart".
All in all, I think highways people did a good job, and was glad to have them turn up, and it shouldn't need the police.
But I don't blame them for being risk averse, seeing how risky their job is.
Ian Geary said:
Tl:Dr Having been on the receiving end of highways England help this week, I think they do a good job.
Longer version:
My bike broke down on the M23 smart section, and one car blocked traffic whilst the either arranged cones around his xc90 and my bike. (Obviously he couldn't tow my bike)
This then kept me slightly safer than I had been, until their tow truck chap turned up, though a fair number of drivers passed red X's to cut right in in front of his cones.
I was watching the guy put more cones out with traffic going past, and he would walk out across the lane perpendicularly, put the cone down, backtrack to the kerb, then along the kerb a few paces, walk out to the edge, put the cone down, back to the kerb, and so on.
Whilst it increased the time it took by X3, it's obviously been mandated that way because it is safer, and reduces the risk to the officer of a car cutting over the "last" cone.
Whilst standing around, this made me think about (and appreciate) the level of policy and training the chaps have to follow, just to do apparently "simple" things.
So I would doubt their job description gives them flexibility to just put a rope around the front and drag something.
(Off topic)
What their JD does give them is authority to get a statutory removal. I don't think this is well known about generally, but vehicles breaking down will face anywhere between £192 to £6k for removal, (plus storage fees if you can't/won't pay as unless you pay then and there you ain't getting your vehicle back).
Apparently over £25m a year is paid. Given general taxation pays for road repair, street lighting and highways England itself, I did wonder whether statutory removal should be free at point of use?
But is has basically become a breakdown tax, and my own breakdown company could only pick up the batten from the services I was taken to. Apparently this income has increased a lot since smart motorways became "smart".
All in all, I think highways people did a good job, and was glad to have them turn up, and it shouldn't need the police.
But I don't blame them for being risk averse, seeing how risky their job is.
They can and will drag anything they can out of the road, to a layby or hard shoulder and do face quite a bit of pressure to get lanes open again despite the general misconception that they close lanes for fun. Unfortunately bikes aren't one of those things although I've seen plenty cover a rider whilst they push a bike to somewhere safer nearby.Longer version:
My bike broke down on the M23 smart section, and one car blocked traffic whilst the either arranged cones around his xc90 and my bike. (Obviously he couldn't tow my bike)
This then kept me slightly safer than I had been, until their tow truck chap turned up, though a fair number of drivers passed red X's to cut right in in front of his cones.
I was watching the guy put more cones out with traffic going past, and he would walk out across the lane perpendicularly, put the cone down, backtrack to the kerb, then along the kerb a few paces, walk out to the edge, put the cone down, back to the kerb, and so on.
Whilst it increased the time it took by X3, it's obviously been mandated that way because it is safer, and reduces the risk to the officer of a car cutting over the "last" cone.
Whilst standing around, this made me think about (and appreciate) the level of policy and training the chaps have to follow, just to do apparently "simple" things.
So I would doubt their job description gives them flexibility to just put a rope around the front and drag something.
(Off topic)
What their JD does give them is authority to get a statutory removal. I don't think this is well known about generally, but vehicles breaking down will face anywhere between £192 to £6k for removal, (plus storage fees if you can't/won't pay as unless you pay then and there you ain't getting your vehicle back).
Apparently over £25m a year is paid. Given general taxation pays for road repair, street lighting and highways England itself, I did wonder whether statutory removal should be free at point of use?
But is has basically become a breakdown tax, and my own breakdown company could only pick up the batten from the services I was taken to. Apparently this income has increased a lot since smart motorways became "smart".
All in all, I think highways people did a good job, and was glad to have them turn up, and it shouldn't need the police.
But I don't blame them for being risk averse, seeing how risky their job is.
The recovery payment also doesn't go to them, thats for the recovery company and the prices are set by government. Given the list of requirements a company needs to get onto those contracts, they don't make a great deal of money out of the standard recoveries, only the more complex ones usually involving trucks.
Vasco said:
Did it *really* make a significant delay to your journey ? . What would you have done with all those valuable minutes ?
Presumably, if it was a person seriously ill/dying in the car you would have still been so upset at the delay to your day?
People just need to chill out more when driving, there's far too many idiots on the road already.
If it was minutes I wouldn’t be bothered, my usual seventy minute journey took two and a half hours, so quite a delay. Also bear in mind that on a normal day that section of motorway sees 15,000 vehicles an hour, a lot of which will be HGVs running on limited driving time, losing an hour in traffic will mean quite a few of them not making their delivery slots, or running out of driving time. It has cost my boss £150 in extra overtime, I have no idea what the total economic cost would be.Presumably, if it was a person seriously ill/dying in the car you would have still been so upset at the delay to your day?
People just need to chill out more when driving, there's far too many idiots on the road already.
It doesn’t wind me up, I’m still on the clock, it just seems such a waste of time and resources to have a vehicle capable of towing, with equipment in the back of it to facilitate towing, and not using it to the detriment of getting on for 25,000 people.
Edited by gazza285 on Sunday 25th February 14:26
gazza285 said:
Vasco said:
Did it *really* make a significant delay to your journey ? . What would you have done with all those valuable minutes ?
Presumably, if it was a person seriously ill/dying in the car you would have still been so upset at the delay to your day?
People just need to chill out more when driving, there's far too many idiots on the road already.
If it was minutes I wouldn’t be bothered, my usual seventy minute journey took two and a half hours, so quite a delay. Also bear in mind that on a normal day that section of motorway sees 15,000 vehicles an hour, a lot of which will be HGVs running on limited driving time, losing an hour in traffic will mean quite a few of them not making their delivery slots, or running out of driving time. It has cost my boss £150 in extra overtime, I have no idea what the total economic cost would be.Presumably, if it was a person seriously ill/dying in the car you would have still been so upset at the delay to your day?
People just need to chill out more when driving, there's far too many idiots on the road already.
Vasco said:
Fair enough. As a regular on the M25 I'm more than used to lengthy delays but you just have to make allowances. My trips have taken anything from 3 hours to 8 hours.
That in itself is a damning statement about large chunks of our motorway network and the way they're run.As for the cost of recovery:-
- If it's due to an accident, surely it'll be recoverable from your (or 3P's) insurer - can anyone confirm?
- If you're on a normal motorway then you SHOULD have time to drop the car onto the hard shoulder in the event of something going wrong.
...which leaves our beloved Smart Motorways - you block a live lane (even if the nearside one), you hope in hell that (a) the control room staff put a Red X up ASAP; and (b) that some distracted truck-driver doesn't miss it and total your car while waiting for recovery. So then it's a gamble whether your breakdown provider can respond quickly enough to avoid the ignominy of a £100's bill for the HATO's getting their pet team to drag you half a mile to a refuge/slip-road. THAT bit I can see sticking in the throat somewhat...
havoc said:
andy43 said:
About that...WTF ref. electric cars being unable to be towed? Exactly how is that reasonable design for modern roads? I get that they're far more 'direct drive' than an ICE with a gearbox, but...
- Is there genuinely no way of de-coupling the motors from the wheels? Surely that can't be beyond the wit of engineers?
- Given you can dial right back the brake regen on an EV (and acknowledging the increased drag even so on the tow vehicle), where's the difference between being towed and coasting, from the EV's perspective*?
- As EVs get older and start encountering more borkage, are we going to see a substantial increase in hold ups on our roads where an EV has just died at traffic lights / in the middle of the M1 / etc. and can't be moved until the AA/RAC etc. arrive an hour later, realise it's an EV and send for a flatbed, which then takes another hour.
* OK, if there's a general system failure then I can see there might be headaches.
For actual recovery towing, it differs between vehicles, some can just have front of back axle lifted, some will need to be fully lifted or both axles suspended. But, if in doubt, get the dolly out.
All manufacturers release towing and recovery/rescue documentation though, fire service definitely has it to give them the quickest cut points, and info on how to split a hv battery pack etc.
OverSteery said:
Rough101 said:
All responses with folk with modern automatics to include how to get the car into neutral mechanically and to over ride the hold and/or electric parking brake.
My son's BMW had an ECU melt down due to a dodgy coil pack (I guess that's modern cars for you). RAC couldn't get it out of Park. . I remember someone on here recently talking about an old generation of BMW that had Motronic but before a limp home mode was introduced, perhaps a "draggable" mode is the next step.
I'm yet to own an auto with a dial, but even relatively modern ones have had an easily accessible manual release to get it into N. On my Lexus it doesn't even involve removing any trim, there's a button next to the shifter. No idea how I'd release the parking brake though... Better check the manual!
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