RE: Volvo has built its last-ever diesel car
Discussion
cerb4.5lee said:
Our next family car will definitely be a diesel again(it is also used to cover high mileage though), but who knows after that though? Maybe an EV perhaps as time goes on?
If you're planning on buying new Lee, you'd probably better not leave it too long - I wouldn't be at all surprised if MB / BMW / Audi discontinue 6 cyl Diesels in the UK by the end of next year, possibly even the end of this year. The volume of Diesel car sales overall are so small now, it'll only be a short matter of time before it's just not worth the effort of marketing them in the UK and we'll see the German three following Volvo's lead.plfrench said:
cerb4.5lee said:
Our next family car will definitely be a diesel again(it is also used to cover high mileage though), but who knows after that though? Maybe an EV perhaps as time goes on?
If you're planning on buying new Lee, you'd probably better not leave it too long - I wouldn't be at all surprised if MB / BMW / Audi discontinue 6 cyl Diesels in the UK by the end of next year, possibly even the end of this year. The volume of Diesel car sales overall are so small now, it'll only be a short matter of time before it's just not worth the effort of marketing them in the UK and we'll see the German three following Volvo's lead.You're right and diesel does seem to be properly out of favour now with new cars for sure though. I do personally find that a bit of a shame really, because a 6 or a 8 cylinder diesel are a nice fit to the bigger SUVs I think.
We didn't like the hybrid X5 45e that we had a go in either for example, so it will get to a stage eventually where we may struggle to get something that we like to cover high miles in I reckon.
BikeSausage said:
The bigger Volvo issue than ending diesel is that they’re no longer selling estates here. Those are cars that built their reputation. We get what we wish for, which apparently is mainly SUVs. Baffling.
Edited by BikeSausage on Tuesday 2nd April 14:53
On a recent trip, we had a bit of a relay with our luggage; started off in our V70 then switched to my parents XC60, however the XC60 couldn't get everything in. To add to that, the XC60 wallows about being higher up, and despite the same engine and gearbox (D4 auto), our V70 gets noticably better fuel economy and the emissions push it within the threshold to be ULEZ/CAZ exempt, whereas the XC60 isn't.
Unsure about a V90 next as I'm not overally thrilled with the D4 lump, it's just a bit gruff. I'm wondering whether a 5-pot V70 is the way to go. Shame, as the V90 is probably the best lookint estate car out there.
Muddle238 said:
Agreed. We have one of the last V70's to roll off the line, on countless times it has been an absolutely superb load lugger, filling the boot to the brim with a surprising amount of stuff being swallowed up.
On a recent trip, we had a bit of a relay with our luggage; started off in our V70 then switched to my parents XC60, however the XC60 couldn't get everything in. To add to that, the XC60 wallows about being higher up, and despite the same engine and gearbox (D4 auto), our V70 gets noticably better fuel economy and the emissions push it within the threshold to be ULEZ/CAZ exempt, whereas the XC60 isn't.
Unsure about a V90 next as I'm not overally thrilled with the D4 lump, it's just a bit gruff. I'm wondering whether a 5-pot V70 is the way to go. Shame, as the V90 is probably the best lookint estate car out there.
Those late V70s are holding their value really well, the D4 2.0 5 pot and 205 - 220bhp odd twin turbo D5 2.4 5 pot are excellent engines and fixed the handful of issues the earlier iterations of the engine could suffer from. On a recent trip, we had a bit of a relay with our luggage; started off in our V70 then switched to my parents XC60, however the XC60 couldn't get everything in. To add to that, the XC60 wallows about being higher up, and despite the same engine and gearbox (D4 auto), our V70 gets noticably better fuel economy and the emissions push it within the threshold to be ULEZ/CAZ exempt, whereas the XC60 isn't.
Unsure about a V90 next as I'm not overally thrilled with the D4 lump, it's just a bit gruff. I'm wondering whether a 5-pot V70 is the way to go. Shame, as the V90 is probably the best lookint estate car out there.
I was utterly disappointed by how poor the powertrain was in the V90, both petrol and diesel, I went in just after they launched with my wallet already out based on the massive showroom appeal but after driving one I couldn't imagine putting up with that van engine in such an otherwise lovely car or a petrol engine that would have been disappointing in a warm hatch. Thought the ride was pretty poor too for a car with all the handling prowess of a canal barge.
I'm not sure if it was the same in the V70 but I know the 5 pots were available as Euro6 compliant using an LNT rather than SCR with it's irritating adblue requirements in the XC60, which is even better.
GeniusOfLove said:
Those late V70s are holding their value really well, the D4 2.0 5 pot and 205 - 220bhp odd twin turbo D5 2.4 5 pot are excellent engines and fixed the handful of issues the earlier iterations of the engine could suffer from.
I was utterly disappointed by how poor the powertrain was in the V90, both petrol and diesel, I went in just after they launched with my wallet already out based on the massive showroom appeal but after driving one I couldn't imagine putting up with that van engine in such an otherwise lovely car or a petrol engine that would have been disappointing in a warm hatch. Thought the ride was pretty poor too for a car with all the handling prowess of a canal barge.
I'm not sure if it was the same in the V70 but I know the 5 pots were available as Euro6 compliant using an LNT rather than SCR with it's irritating adblue requirements in the XC60, which is even better.
I must admit I'm very happy to have bought one of the later XC70s with the 2.4 5-cyl D5 engine you mention just before things went bonkers with covid. I've had a good look at Volvo's newer stuff on several occasions (XC90s in particular), but while there's a lot to like I just can't see where the value is vis-a-vis what I've already got and yeah the newer 4-cyl engines are a part of that. Suspect reliability is another. I couldn't care a jot about Euro6 mind, in the four years I've had the XC70 I've driven into a ULEZ zero times, and judging by used values there are a lot of people the same!I was utterly disappointed by how poor the powertrain was in the V90, both petrol and diesel, I went in just after they launched with my wallet already out based on the massive showroom appeal but after driving one I couldn't imagine putting up with that van engine in such an otherwise lovely car or a petrol engine that would have been disappointing in a warm hatch. Thought the ride was pretty poor too for a car with all the handling prowess of a canal barge.
I'm not sure if it was the same in the V70 but I know the 5 pots were available as Euro6 compliant using an LNT rather than SCR with it's irritating adblue requirements in the XC60, which is even better.
Roger Irrelevant said:
GeniusOfLove said:
Those late V70s are holding their value really well, the D4 2.0 5 pot and 205 - 220bhp odd twin turbo D5 2.4 5 pot are excellent engines and fixed the handful of issues the earlier iterations of the engine could suffer from.
I was utterly disappointed by how poor the powertrain was in the V90, both petrol and diesel, I went in just after they launched with my wallet already out based on the massive showroom appeal but after driving one I couldn't imagine putting up with that van engine in such an otherwise lovely car or a petrol engine that would have been disappointing in a warm hatch. Thought the ride was pretty poor too for a car with all the handling prowess of a canal barge.
I'm not sure if it was the same in the V70 but I know the 5 pots were available as Euro6 compliant using an LNT rather than SCR with it's irritating adblue requirements in the XC60, which is even better.
I must admit I'm very happy to have bought one of the later XC70s with the 2.4 5-cyl D5 engine you mention just before things went bonkers with covid. I've had a good look at Volvo's newer stuff on several occasions (XC90s in particular), but while there's a lot to like I just can't see where the value is vis-a-vis what I've already got and yeah the newer 4-cyl engines are a part of that. Suspect reliability is another. I couldn't care a jot about Euro6 mind, in the four years I've had the XC70 I've driven into a ULEZ zero times, and judging by used values there are a lot of people the same!I was utterly disappointed by how poor the powertrain was in the V90, both petrol and diesel, I went in just after they launched with my wallet already out based on the massive showroom appeal but after driving one I couldn't imagine putting up with that van engine in such an otherwise lovely car or a petrol engine that would have been disappointing in a warm hatch. Thought the ride was pretty poor too for a car with all the handling prowess of a canal barge.
I'm not sure if it was the same in the V70 but I know the 5 pots were available as Euro6 compliant using an LNT rather than SCR with it's irritating adblue requirements in the XC60, which is even better.
For example the Welsh Assembly Government have just given themselves powers to ultimately put in place restrictions on a few stretches of road, including the only bit of motorway the halfwits get to ruin, where they cannot get the NOx levels under control by dropping speed limits (which was always going to be the case, if traffic is creeping through at walking pace for 14 hours of the day then setting the limit from 70 to 50 isn't going to achieve much) and I doubt they're alone in having to consider this to avoid fines for air quality failures.
The hope is that the natural end of life of a lot of these awful little diesels that were foisted on us will mean that the handful of decent ones being used appropriately can continue to do good service though. I'll certainly not be sad when the very last Fiesta TDCi and BMW 320d get crushed into cubes.
Muddle238 said:
BikeSausage said:
The bigger Volvo issue than ending diesel is that they’re no longer selling estates here. Those are cars that built their reputation. We get what we wish for, which apparently is mainly SUVs. Baffling.
Edited by BikeSausage on Tuesday 2nd April 14:53
On a recent trip, we had a bit of a relay with our luggage; started off in our V70 then switched to my parents XC60, however the XC60 couldn't get everything in. To add to that, the XC60 wallows about being higher up, and despite the same engine and gearbox (D4 auto), our V70 gets noticably better fuel economy and the emissions push it within the threshold to be ULEZ/CAZ exempt, whereas the XC60 isn't.
Unsure about a V90 next as I'm not overally thrilled with the D4 lump, it's just a bit gruff. I'm wondering whether a 5-pot V70 is the way to go. Shame, as the V90 is probably the best lookint estate car out there.
MrTrilby said:
Fortunately Volvo make plugin hybrids if you feel EV is not for you. And it’s a vastly better drivetrain than the straight 6 diesel I used to have. No way would I want to go back to diesel.
A plugin hybrid is about the worst possible drivetrain imaginable for a long journey. Electric range is immediately eaten into, and then a meager ICE is working harder to pull a heavier car along. They are so strained.Nomme de Plum said:
Throughout most of Europe 80mph (130km/hr) is also illegal. On certain toll autoroutes the average speed is calculated and a driver will be fined for speeding.
In the UK unless travelling outside normal hours averaging 80mph for an extended period is impossible.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/303443/average...
I'm not denying the benefit of a diesel engine for towing heavy loads and owners of such vehicles will be able to purchase a new one up to 2035 although it does appear sales of new pure diesel cars has dropped substantially.
Apparently battery augmented trailers are in development so who knows what the that market will look like then or how battery technology will have developed?
As you can see from this, 130kmh definitely covers the majority of mainland Europe.In the UK unless travelling outside normal hours averaging 80mph for an extended period is impossible.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/303443/average...
I'm not denying the benefit of a diesel engine for towing heavy loads and owners of such vehicles will be able to purchase a new one up to 2035 although it does appear sales of new pure diesel cars has dropped substantially.
Apparently battery augmented trailers are in development so who knows what the that market will look like then or how battery technology will have developed?
If you actually did spend much time driving in these regions you'd know that 130kmh is an easy speed to hold. And as mentioned in my earlier post, diesel is just supreme here.
123RY said:
A plugin hybrid is about the worst possible drivetrain imaginable for a long journey. Electric range is immediately eaten into, and then a meager ICE is working harder to pull a heavier car along. They are so strained.
100% wrong on every point. It doesn’t eat into the electric range immediately - it saves EV power for the parts of the trip where it has most benefit.
And given the ICE has 300bhp on its own then I think you just demonstrated your own ignorance by calling it “meagre”. Particularly because even with the battery showing 0%, it will still happily give you the full ICE+EV shove when asked, which is 450bhp - absolutely the furthest away from “strained” that you could possibly get.
Give one a go - stick it in Power mode and they’re quite fun to drive.
MrTrilby said:
100% wrong on every point.
It doesn’t eat into the electric range immediately - it saves EV power for the parts of the trip where it has most benefit.
And given the ICE has 300bhp on its own then I think you just demonstrated your own ignorance by calling it “meagre”. Particularly because even with the battery showing 0%, it will still happily give you the full ICE+EV shove when asked, which is 450bhp - absolutely the furthest away from “strained” that you could possibly get.
Give one a go - stick it in Power mode and they’re quite fun to drive.
300bhp from a boosted 4-pot pulling in a 2.1tonne estate is definitely meagre. V90 T8s weigh more than an RS6.It doesn’t eat into the electric range immediately - it saves EV power for the parts of the trip where it has most benefit.
And given the ICE has 300bhp on its own then I think you just demonstrated your own ignorance by calling it “meagre”. Particularly because even with the battery showing 0%, it will still happily give you the full ICE+EV shove when asked, which is 450bhp - absolutely the furthest away from “strained” that you could possibly get.
Give one a go - stick it in Power mode and they’re quite fun to drive.
I have. An XC60 T8. It was a 2020 so the 400bhp version. Quick in town but dreadful over distance and didn't see over 28mpg on a decent run. Strained on a long distance run at speed is definitely accurate.
123RY said:
As you can see from this, 130kmh definitely covers the majority of mainland Europe.
If you actually did spend much time driving in these regions you'd know that 130kmh is an easy speed to hold. And as mentioned in my earlier post, diesel is just supreme here.
If you take France for example it is Autoroutes (Toll roads) and Motorways which are 130. Dual carriage ways are less at 110 kph.If you actually did spend much time driving in these regions you'd know that 130kmh is an easy speed to hold. And as mentioned in my earlier post, diesel is just supreme here.
https://www.eurotunnel.com/uk/holiday-ideas/drivin...
Other countries are broadly similar and yes if you are travelling on these roads maybe you can maintain these speeds, but this is the UK and the evidence is clear average motorway speeds are less than 70mph (112km/hr)
I used to drive regularly to Spain through France but now only motor in the UK and my other base in Estonia.
Most motorists who live in the UK do the vast majority of their driving circa 7,000 miles per annum in the UK so travelling across Europe is relatively small beer.
I'd rather drive in near silence at 2.5p/mile than a diesel at 5 times that unless of course i was towing a caravan, horse box or similar or maybe drove a RV.
123RY said:
MrTrilby said:
100% wrong on every point.
It doesn’t eat into the electric range immediately - it saves EV power for the parts of the trip where it has most benefit.
And given the ICE has 300bhp on its own then I think you just demonstrated your own ignorance by calling it “meagre”. Particularly because even with the battery showing 0%, it will still happily give you the full ICE+EV shove when asked, which is 450bhp - absolutely the furthest away from “strained” that you could possibly get.
Give one a go - stick it in Power mode and they’re quite fun to drive.
300bhp from a boosted 4-pot pulling in a 2.1tonne estate is definitely meagre. V90 T8s weigh more than an RS6.It doesn’t eat into the electric range immediately - it saves EV power for the parts of the trip where it has most benefit.
And given the ICE has 300bhp on its own then I think you just demonstrated your own ignorance by calling it “meagre”. Particularly because even with the battery showing 0%, it will still happily give you the full ICE+EV shove when asked, which is 450bhp - absolutely the furthest away from “strained” that you could possibly get.
Give one a go - stick it in Power mode and they’re quite fun to drive.
I have. An XC60 T8. It was a 2020 so the 400bhp version. Quick in town but dreadful over distance and didn't see over 28mpg on a decent run. Strained on a long distance run at speed is definitely accurate.
In saying that, I wouldn't mind seeing how much(if at all) they improve if the battery was full though.
Nomme de Plum said:
If you take France for example it is Autoroutes (Toll roads) and Motorways which are 130. Dual carriage ways are less at 110 kph.
https://www.eurotunnel.com/uk/holiday-ideas/drivin...
Other countries are broadly similar and yes if you are travelling on these roads maybe you can maintain these speeds, but this is the UK and the evidence is clear average motorway speeds are less than 70mph (112km/hr)
I used to drive regularly to Spain through France but now only motor in the UK and my other base in Estonia.
Most motorists who live in the UK do the vast majority of their driving circa 7,000 miles per annum in the UK so travelling across Europe is relatively small beer.
I'd rather drive in near silence at 2.5p/mile than a diesel at 5 times that unless of course i was towing a caravan, horse box or similar or maybe drove a RV.
I'm not sure why you keep reverting to just UK. Travelling across Europe is relevant for many Europeans. The point is volvo has discontinued the diesels, period.https://www.eurotunnel.com/uk/holiday-ideas/drivin...
Other countries are broadly similar and yes if you are travelling on these roads maybe you can maintain these speeds, but this is the UK and the evidence is clear average motorway speeds are less than 70mph (112km/hr)
I used to drive regularly to Spain through France but now only motor in the UK and my other base in Estonia.
Most motorists who live in the UK do the vast majority of their driving circa 7,000 miles per annum in the UK so travelling across Europe is relatively small beer.
I'd rather drive in near silence at 2.5p/mile than a diesel at 5 times that unless of course i was towing a caravan, horse box or similar or maybe drove a RV.
My diesel at 80mph is no louder than an EV. At that speed the engine is completely overrun by tyre noise etc.
I'd rather get to my destination in an overall faster time with less faff. And this is the point. Horses for courses and for me ICE works better.
cerb4.5lee said:
I've had a couple of hybrids as loan cars(a Merc A-Class and a BMW X2), and the battery was flat in both of them when I got in them. So all I was left with were heavy cars(much heavier than their petrol or diesel only counterparts) mated to a tiny 1.3 or 1.5 engine, and that isn't my idea of a good time being honest.
In saying that, I wouldn't mind seeing how much(if at all) they improve if the battery was full though.
A large study has been released recently which has seen that the actual mpg of plug in hybrids are about 200% worse than manufacturer's claims. Mostly due to people not charging them often enough and journeys being longer so ICE have to kick in more. I wouldn't be surprised if this leads to an earlier phasing out of plug in hybrids.In saying that, I wouldn't mind seeing how much(if at all) they improve if the battery was full though.
My FIL has a lexus NX450+ which is really quite lovely. Great for journeys up to about 60miles and then it just doesn't really make sense. They have solar power and charge it each day. But unfortunately he does do too many long journeys (lives in central Europe) and has had to concede that it is the wrong car for his needs. He'll be reverting back to diesel after he returns this one.
123RY said:
I'm not sure why you keep reverting to just UK. Travelling across Europe is relevant for many Europeans. The point is volvo has discontinued the diesels, period.
My diesel at 80mph is no louder than an EV. At that speed the engine is completely overrun by tyre noise etc.
I'd rather get to my destination in an overall faster time with less faff. And this is the point. Horses for courses and for me ICE works better.
I'd like to see your evidence that your diesel is as quiet as an EV at 80mph. EV aerodynamics are much better sorted and wind noise is not intrusive. Even road noise is being engineered out. My diesel at 80mph is no louder than an EV. At that speed the engine is completely overrun by tyre noise etc.
I'd rather get to my destination in an overall faster time with less faff. And this is the point. Horses for courses and for me ICE works better.
If a diesel works better for you now that is fine. 2035 is over a decade away and used cars will be available for another 10-15 years. We can reasonably assume the EVs of 2040/2050 will be more efficient than they are now with much longer range. Having said that for well over 90% of the population the new cars available today are fine.
123RY said:
I'm not sure why you keep reverting to just UK. Travelling across Europe is relevant for many Europeans. The point is volvo has discontinued the diesels, period.
My diesel at 80mph is no louder than an EV. At that speed the engine is completely overrun by tyre noise etc.
I'd rather get to my destination in an overall faster time with less faff. And this is the point. Horses for courses and for me ICE works better.
When i lived there i could easily spend the entire day at 130km/h+ whilst crossing countries. Lots of Europeans like to drive on holiday rather than fly and will think nothing of spending a full day driving. I think trying to be everything to everybody is the wrong direction and introduces compromises across the board. Many people run 2 cars now, we could be building practical, cheap, lightweight EVs for commuting to clean up the cities and use a better fuel source for everything else.My diesel at 80mph is no louder than an EV. At that speed the engine is completely overrun by tyre noise etc.
I'd rather get to my destination in an overall faster time with less faff. And this is the point. Horses for courses and for me ICE works better.
CLK-GTR said:
When i lived there i could easily spend the entire day at 130km/h+ whilst crossing countries. Lots of Europeans like to drive on holiday rather than fly and will think nothing of spending a full day driving. I think trying to be everything to everybody is the wrong direction and introduces compromises across the board. Many people run 2 cars now, we could be building practical, cheap, lightweight EVs for commuting to clean up the cities and use a better fuel source for everything else.
Perfectly said.Driving yourself and family with luggage is far better for emissions than flying too.
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