RE: Mercedes E60 AMG | PH Heroes
Discussion
J4CKO said:
Mad how that's 200 grand, yet you can get a really nice W211 E55 for 10/12 grand, possibly less and an absolute minter for 15.
Yes, 200k is a lot by any standard and I personally don't see the value when a low mileage 500E/E500 can be had for far, far less.But, as there was only 10,000 base cars produced, sod all in Mercedes terms and the E60 was produced in incredibly small numbers and it's an AMG product, there's no comparison to a W211 E55 when it comes to rarity. Even a 500E/E500 is a lot more desirable to many than a W211. Understandably so to.
I’ve had my 1991 500e since 2007 and loved every minute.
The idea of another 60hp and 70lbs of torque would be perfect. Not overwhelming of the 245 rear tyres and a bit more go. I assume the 6.0 is similar but I believe the 5.0 has over 300lbs of torque from 1000rpm to the limiter at 6300.
The instant response at all speeds and in all gears was a huge selling point to me.
This era of German cars gave some real gems.
Dave!
The idea of another 60hp and 70lbs of torque would be perfect. Not overwhelming of the 245 rear tyres and a bit more go. I assume the 6.0 is similar but I believe the 5.0 has over 300lbs of torque from 1000rpm to the limiter at 6300.
The instant response at all speeds and in all gears was a huge selling point to me.
This era of German cars gave some real gems.
Dave!
JJJ. said:
J4CKO said:
Mad how that's 200 grand, yet you can get a really nice W211 E55 for 10/12 grand, possibly less and an absolute minter for 15.
Yes, 200k is a lot by any standard and I personally don't see the value when a low mileage 500E/E500 can be had for far, far less.But, as there was only 10,000 base cars produced, sod all in Mercedes terms and the E60 was produced in incredibly small numbers and it's an AMG product, there's no comparison to a W211 E55 when it comes to rarity. Even a 500E/E500 is a lot more desirable to many than a W211. Understandably so to.
Article said:
The biggest problem was one of resources, with Merc’s engineering staff mostly working flat out on what would become the R129 generation SL and the W140 S-Class.
This gives a big clue as to one of the less often mentioned reasons that Mercedes-Benz completely and totally fell to turds through the 90s, and have never really recovered, on top of the well documented drive to knock out costs in both development and assembly and the misguided attempts to become a conglomerate.Mid 80s all their engineering resources are absorbed developing two new models that went on to be two of the best cars ever made.
Over the 90s they developed: W220 S Class and corresponding C215 CL, the W168 A Class (a massive undertaking and all new ground), the R170 SLK, the ML, the R230 SL, the W202 C Class, the C208 CLK. Probaby some other awful cars I've forgotten about.
Did they suddenly acquire 3x more engineers or did they just make everything 1/3rd as good?
I'll let you be the judge
Twoshoe said:
I think that strictly speaking that's an E500 (as it's the facelift version).
Nein! The original German owner at some point spent not an inconsiderable sum having it updated to the facelift look. He also put well over 250k kms on it and eventually forked out a not inconsiderable DM27k (or thereabouts - my memory is getting hazy) on fitting a new engine from Mercedes. Wolands Advocate said:
Twoshoe said:
I think that strictly speaking that's an E500 (as it's the facelift version).
Nein! The original German owner at some point spent not an inconsiderable sum having it updated to the facelift look. He also put well over 250k kms on it and eventually forked out a not inconsiderable DM27k (or thereabouts - my memory is getting hazy) on fitting a new engine from Mercedes. Edited by Twoshoe on Monday 22 April 17:23
McRors said:
The last properly built Mercedes? I guess that’s up for debate but I do love a W124. A friend took me for a run in his E500 and it just felt so “right”. He had a 2.7 Carrera too the lucky blighter. Good two car garage.
They were not as perfect as people make them to be, but still good cars and miles ahead of whatever is being churned out by MB now.
GeniusOfLove said:
This gives a big clue as to one of the less often mentioned reasons that Mercedes-Benz completely and totally fell to turds through the 90s, and have never really recovered, on top of the well documented drive to knock out costs in both development and assembly and the misguided attempts to become a conglomerate.
Mid 80s all their engineering resources are absorbed developing two new models that went on to be two of the best cars ever made.
Over the 90s they developed: W220 S Class and corresponding C215 CL, the W168 A Class (a massive undertaking and all new ground), the R170 SLK, the ML, the R230 SL, the W202 C Class, the C208 CLK. Probaby some other awful cars I've forgotten about.
Did they suddenly acquire 3x more engineers or did they just make everything 1/3rd as good?
I'll let you be the judge
The W140 is the reason why Mercedes-Benz went turd in the mid-90s and eventually tied up with Chrysler. I've written about the W140 a few times and it's one of the great automobile industry stories. Far too lengthy to go into again (and for free!) - much of the ills of the entire company can be traced by the two rather large, rather rotund W140 chief engineers banging their heads on a styling buck. Delays and cost overruns spiralled from there, millions invested in a twin chassis that got abandoned, design changes that ruined the handling, then BMW launched a V12 which put back development by 18 months, then Lexus launched the LS400... I could write a book.*Mid 80s all their engineering resources are absorbed developing two new models that went on to be two of the best cars ever made.
Over the 90s they developed: W220 S Class and corresponding C215 CL, the W168 A Class (a massive undertaking and all new ground), the R170 SLK, the ML, the R230 SL, the W202 C Class, the C208 CLK. Probaby some other awful cars I've forgotten about.
Did they suddenly acquire 3x more engineers or did they just make everything 1/3rd as good?
I'll let you be the judge
However, what it boils down was the long battle between engineers and bean counters that had waged within Mercedes-Benz for a long time. When the W140 arrived two years late, into a worldwide recession, out-played in the key market (USA) by Lexus and pretty much unsafe five up with their luggage, heads had to to roll. The chief engineer was put out to pasture at Mannesman, but the bigger loss was that it all added to the beancounters' argument that there was so much waste within Mercedes-Benz by the engineers. Reading behind the lines of a CEO interview post-launch in CAR you can see what he was trying to say.
Rapid cost-cutting then followed.
There was also an ecological impact too – Greenpeace welcomed the W140's launch at Geneva with a massive display of all the oil cans one would use through its life. Questions were asked in German parliament about it etc etc.
That's partly the reason behind the disastrous move to new paints and rotten W210s, and biodegradeable wiring looms.
There are a great many stories about the W140 development, many of them tragi-hilarious.
- I won't because nobody really cares
Edited by NathanChadwick on Tuesday 23 April 11:08
One of the best cars I ever had was a 1996 W124 E320 Sportline soft top. Got looks everywhere we went, really well made, rode nicely and just shouted class. Wish I'd kept it. Built when building cars to last and be proud of meant something, not just be the blingiest, fastest, heaviest lard ass on the block. Look dated now but still look the part.
The AMG 6.0 M119 actually made a nominal 385 bhp, which in reality on a dyno could be actually 420 bhp or even more than the M120 V12. It was never as low as 354 bhp as the article stated.
The 500E was jointly developed with Porsche they merely helped assemble the drivetrain in their factory.
The Porsche 928 used a Mercedes 722.4 transmission in the auto models, which the article doesnt make clear.
The 500E was jointly developed with Porsche they merely helped assemble the drivetrain in their factory.
The Porsche 928 used a Mercedes 722.4 transmission in the auto models, which the article doesnt make clear.
JJJ. said:
Yes, 200k is a lot by any standard and I personally don't see the value when a low mileage 500E/E500 can be had for far, far less.
But, as there was only 10,000 base cars produced, sod all in Mercedes terms and the E60 was produced in incredibly small numbers and it's an AMG product, there's no comparison to a W211 E55 when it comes to rarity. Even a 500E/E500 is a lot more desirable to many than a W211. Understandably so to.
They made under well under 20,000 W211 E55s and only 1444 S211 E55s. But, as there was only 10,000 base cars produced, sod all in Mercedes terms and the E60 was produced in incredibly small numbers and it's an AMG product, there's no comparison to a W211 E55 when it comes to rarity. Even a 500E/E500 is a lot more desirable to many than a W211. Understandably so to.
McGee_22 said:
Fabulous machine and very rare but isn't 355bhp from a six litre V8 pretty low?
Alpina were getting 340bhp from just about three-quarters of that engine in the same year - their first 4.6 in the E34. Additionally the author waxes lyrical about the spec with electric seats, electric steering column and automatic air conditioning - again all available and some quite common in E34's of the time.
Fabulous machine though and despite being a Munich machine fan I would definitely make space for something as special and bonkers as this. Did they make an estate? As I understand it these top end AMG's were pretty much bespoke machines made to specific orders only.
The 20 year old who wrote the article is wrong. The 6.0 M119 was nominally rated at 385 bhp but actually made up to 420 bhp in reality, and 429 lb ft torque. Alpina were getting 340bhp from just about three-quarters of that engine in the same year - their first 4.6 in the E34. Additionally the author waxes lyrical about the spec with electric seats, electric steering column and automatic air conditioning - again all available and some quite common in E34's of the time.
Fabulous machine though and despite being a Munich machine fan I would definitely make space for something as special and bonkers as this. Did they make an estate? As I understand it these top end AMG's were pretty much bespoke machines made to specific orders only.
From the badge to the two square exhaust tips - awesome. Even the Darth Vadar helmet interior with the dark fake wood rather than the orange 70's cabin interior, looks great. Solid, very solid.
Had a 2.5-16 for a while and loved it. Even the windscreen wiper and one stalk were fun.
This must be a complete joy, though a manual box would, obviously be better.
Even a photobomb by a very well preserved / restored G Wagon too.
Had a 2.5-16 for a while and loved it. Even the windscreen wiper and one stalk were fun.
This must be a complete joy, though a manual box would, obviously be better.
Even a photobomb by a very well preserved / restored G Wagon too.
Edited by smilo996 on Wednesday 24th April 09:20
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