RE: Polestar 5 prototype charges in 10 minutes
Discussion
GT9 said:
Mytheroo said:
ok, so 14 years at 5% per year and EVs are 3% versus a possible 70%....maybe that's a maths win where you're from?
I'm not entirely sure what point you are making?
Are you talking about 2010 to 2024?
rodericb said:
SDK said:
Sustainable fuel is very expensive to produce & transport, so it will be always be very costly for the end user. The world demands a lot of fuel and sustainable fuel production won't ever meet even 10% of just one countries demand.
Finally - Vehicles using it still emit tailpipe pollution
Petrol was probably very expensive to produce and transport back when you had to buy it from the chemist. Similarly, batteries to power an electric vehicle weren't cheap but production technology evolves......Finally - Vehicles using it still emit tailpipe pollution
TX.
Tycho said:
GT9 said:
Mytheroo said:
ok, so 14 years at 5% per year and EVs are 3% versus a possible 70%....maybe that's a maths win where you're from?
I'm not entirely sure what point you are making?
Are you talking about 2010 to 2024?
If that was the point, maybe they are posting from Norway.
There aren't enough EVs in the entire world yet to have replaced the UK passenger car fleet.
Globally, it's at about 2% of cars on the road, we are slightly ahead at 3%.
Norway are at 25% I think, not bad going.
Terminator X said:
All tech evolves or is predicted to evolve (batteries, check. The grid, check. EV range, check) but not sustainable fuel it seems
TX.
Like clockwork. TX.
What exactly are you hoping might evolve, come on you must have some idea by now?
The world largest e-fuel developer is targeting 5 million cars worth of fuel by 2035.
There are 1.5 billion ICEs in the world.
Are you thinking some sort of lottery system for who gets the fuel?
Maybe a 200 car drag race and winner takes all?
Greenmantle said:
J4CKO said:
dxg said:
V8 FOU said:
Assuming the charge point can supply that level of current?
And where does it store the energy so that it can do so - a massive capacitor? How how long does it take to charge *that*?There's no way the grid will be able to supply that...
They managed to put that much in so its obviously possible, will be commonplace in a few years I expect.
It may surprise all to know that this payment pays for both the generation of electricity and also it's transmission. When we use more electricity the grid operator gets more money and uses this revenue stream to invest in more transmission infrastructure.
As it stands UK electricity consumption is very much lower than it peak around the turn of the century. Most EV charging will take place at home using existing connections, there may be some need to upgrade local grid and substations but again that will be paid for by revenue and amortised over the decades most of that kit lasts.
To put this into context a simple 11kv power line on a telegraph pole moves about 3MW, so a 15 bay station could be run off a single one of them.
Battery technology and EV's have come a long way in the last 10 years, the pace of change is remarkable and I have no doubt the next 10 years will see even more improvements.
The case for EV's for personal transport is indisputable although I do have my doubts about their suitability for long distance commercial haulage.
For me their biggest advantages is the lack of emissions in city centres. Air quality in our major cities would be transformed if the ICE was banned from entering them.
Anyone who has spent time in London, not to mention the long suffering residents/workforce, knows all to well just how polluted the atmosphere is.
The case for EV's for personal transport is indisputable although I do have my doubts about their suitability for long distance commercial haulage.
For me their biggest advantages is the lack of emissions in city centres. Air quality in our major cities would be transformed if the ICE was banned from entering them.
Anyone who has spent time in London, not to mention the long suffering residents/workforce, knows all to well just how polluted the atmosphere is.
Edited by Cryssys on Tuesday 30th April 21:00
FMOB said:
Firebobby said:
sidesauce said:
That's one in the eye for the argument that EVs take too long to charge. Let's see what they'll complain about next...
Still 3 times slower than I can put 300 miles of range in my beemer
The Tesla supercharger experience suggests that the ratio of about 400 cars to a fast charger is enough to adequately support the fleet and the usefulness of that network goes up as more cars are bought. Interestingly enough that ratio is about the same as that for pumps to cars, however the locations of those pumps and chargers won't be the same due to the different usage patterns.
Cryssys said:
The case for EV's for personal transport is indisputable although I do have my doubts about their suitability for long distance commercial haulage.
Hydrogen trucks are being trialled pretty much everywhere.There was an article I posted recently quoting the CEO of MAN where he felt it would balance out at about 80/20 in favour of batteries over H2 for trucks.
Long distance cold weather routes being the obvious use case for H2.
Similar predictions of 80/20 can be found in BP's global energy forecast for 2035 and 2050.
For cars, nearly all current evidence points to H2 failing to take any foothold at all, and Toyota themselves have conceded defeat with regard to the Mirai.
The biggest problem for me is this.
https://www.hydrogeninsight.com/transport/no-one-k...
Combine that with the focus on blue hydrogen here in the UK where not only is H2 leakage a potential issue, but so is methane leakage.
Both are highly potent greenhouse gases.
I think we are potentially heading for another diesel fiasco where the real world emissions (or leakage in this case) are far higher than anyone first thought, except of course for those standing to profit from it, who will of course plead the 5th.
J__Wood said:
Cryssys said:
Battery technology and EV's have come a long way in the last 10 years, the pace of change is remarkable and I have no doubt the next 10 years will see even more improvements.
The case for EV's for personal transport is indisputable although I do have my doubts about their suitability for long distance commercial haulage.
For me their biggest advantages is the lack of emissions in city centres. Air quality in our major cities would be transformed if the ICE was banned from entering them.
Anyone who has spent time in London, not to mention the long suffering residents/workforce, day knows just how polluted the atmosphere is.
I think this is key, just as technology doesn't stand still, neither will the roll out of Ultra Low+ Emission Zones or clean air zones. The case for EV's for personal transport is indisputable although I do have my doubts about their suitability for long distance commercial haulage.
For me their biggest advantages is the lack of emissions in city centres. Air quality in our major cities would be transformed if the ICE was banned from entering them.
Anyone who has spent time in London, not to mention the long suffering residents/workforce, day knows just how polluted the atmosphere is.
It may not be long before every city or large town implements them.
Who wants to be seen as the 'dirty man' of the UK, still contributing to the early deaths of your residents.
When you can't drive into any town centre, being able to stick 50 litres of fuel in your car in 5 minutes isn't such an advantage when you have to spend 1/2 hour on the park and ride bus to get to the town/city centre.
Can't be many years before the loopholes for our 40 year old classics etc are closed off and they too are banned from urban areas.
GT9 said:
It's a pretty simple (conservative) rule of thumb, 1 million EVs adds 1% average load to the existing demand on the grid.
The fact that EVs can average 3 miles per kWh is the crucial element in all of this.
However, the rate of increase of electric cars needs to be factored against the planned offshore (and onshore) wind capacity increases.
On current forecasts, EVs will never make up more than about 10-15% of overall demand.
As you say, heat pumps and commercial/industrial electrification are likely to be just as demanding, even more so.
The interesting additional point is AI/the internet is on course to consume about 20% of the world's power (though I suspect that probably includes all the devices connected to it as well) next year. At current rates of growth some time after 2050 the internet will consume as much power as the rest of the grid.The fact that EVs can average 3 miles per kWh is the crucial element in all of this.
However, the rate of increase of electric cars needs to be factored against the planned offshore (and onshore) wind capacity increases.
On current forecasts, EVs will never make up more than about 10-15% of overall demand.
As you say, heat pumps and commercial/industrial electrification are likely to be just as demanding, even more so.
The plus side of this is that we could use the fungibility of computation to use this to balance the grid and even deal with seasonal changes in power demand. When power is more expensive in winter data centres in Europe reduce output and some capacity is shifted to centres in other continents where it's summer.
fatboy b said:
Yet another joins the party. You people don’t get it do you?
BTW, I’m not anti ev. I just don’t think they’re the whole future. Teach me otherwise please.
But the market seems to be voting with their feet, or are you in denial over that too?
Oh please. BTW, I’m not anti ev. I just don’t think they’re the whole future. Teach me otherwise please.
But the market seems to be voting with their feet, or are you in denial over that too?
All you have to do is read a few EV threads - actually read them, not filtering out the bits you disagree with. That is all I have done.For passenger cars they are overwhelmingly the long-term answer. Not only are they the best to decarbonise the national fleet, but they will increase energy security (using less oil) and act as a huge battery for the national grid which can smooth out demand.
Car enthusiasts are a tiny minority. Most people couldn't care less about engine noise, manual gear changes, steering feel etc. They have been buying 'white goods' cars for 70+ years now. EVs will be the progression of that.
paul13 said:
sidesauce said:
That's one in the eye for the argument that EVs take too long to charge. Let's see what they'll complain about next...
Repeated fast charging will 'kill' the battery over extended periods, after a while the battery will be damaged.And even then 'damaged' will often mean 10-30% reduction in capacity, not the end of the world.
The one time I had a Polestar 4 for a trip, I found that I'd be using a fast charger and marvelling that I was getting however many kW, only for someone else to park up, hook on to the other side of the charger and halve it.
Yes, that sometimes happens with petrol too - I've used plenty of stations where the dispenser is running nicely until someone starts using the next one along. But that adds seconds to a fill up, not 10 minutes.
Will these super duper chargers cut off at 80% to dissuade the morons who hog the fast charger to try and get to 100%?
Yes, that sometimes happens with petrol too - I've used plenty of stations where the dispenser is running nicely until someone starts using the next one along. But that adds seconds to a fill up, not 10 minutes.
Will these super duper chargers cut off at 80% to dissuade the morons who hog the fast charger to try and get to 100%?
J__Wood said:
When you can't drive into any town centre, being able to stick 50 litres of fuel in your car in 5 minutes isn't such an advantage when you have to spend 1/2 hour on the park and ride bus to get to the town/city centre.
Can't be many years before the loopholes for our 40 year old classics etc are closed off and they too are banned from urban areas.
Can't be many years before the loopholes for our 40 year old classics etc are closed off and they too are banned from urban areas.
Eventually battery energy density will be such that you'll get useful range from a package the same weight as the engine and gearbox.
GT9 said:
Cryssys said:
The case for EV's for personal transport is indisputable although I do have my doubts about their suitability for long distance commercial haulage.
Hydrogen trucks are being trialled pretty much everywhere.There was an article I posted recently quoting the CEO of MAN where he felt it would balance out at about 80/20 in favour of batteries over H2 for trucks.
Long distance cold weather routes being the obvious use case for H2.
Similar predictions of 80/20 can be found in BP's global energy forecast for 2035 and 2050.
For cars, nearly all current evidence points to H2 failing to take any foothold at all, and Toyota themselves have conceded defeat with regard to the Mirai.
The biggest problem for me is this.
https://www.hydrogeninsight.com/transport/no-one-k...
Combine that with the focus on blue hydrogen here in the UK where not only is H2 leakage a potential issue, but so is methane leakage.
Both are highly potent greenhouse gases.
I think we are potentially heading for another diesel fiasco where the real world emissions (or leakage in this case) are far higher than anyone first thought, except of course for those standing to profit from it, who will of course plead the 5th.
paul13 said:
Repeated fast charging will 'kill' the battery over extended periods, after a while the battery will be damaged.
StoreDot, the developer of these cells, says that they have tested them with 2000 consecutive extreme fast charging cycles and they still retained 80% of their capacity afterwards:https://www.store-dot.com/press/storedot-hits-comm...
Given that 10-80% would represent around 200 miles of range in this Polestar 5, 2000 cycles of it is 400,000 miles of driving - so that's a pretty damn long "while", even in the unlikely scenario all of your charging over the lifetime of the vehicle is done at maximum rate.
Talksteer said:
The the same factors that made EVs win on cars exist with lorries. However cost of operation is much more important with heavy trucks and this is where EVs have the greatest advantage due to avoiding the energy losses in converting hydrogen and the costs of compression. Also at the moment charge times are adequate to refuel a lorry within the time allocated for a statutory break.
Yep, the 80/20 split is global.The UK doesn't really fit the long distance cold weather usage case.
Personally I don't think we need any hydrogen for road transport, will save an absolute fortune on infrastructure.
And avoid the whole blue hydrogen 'is it or isn't it low carbon' messiness that's coming.
GT9 said:
Talksteer said:
The the same factors that made EVs win on cars exist with lorries. However cost of operation is much more important with heavy trucks and this is where EVs have the greatest advantage due to avoiding the energy losses in converting hydrogen and the costs of compression. Also at the moment charge times are adequate to refuel a lorry within the time allocated for a statutory break.
Yep, the 80/20 split is global.The UK doesn't really fit the long distance cold weather usage case.
Personally I don't think we need any hydrogen for road transport, will save an absolute fortune on infrastructure.
And avoid the whole blue hydrogen 'is it or isn't it low carbon' messiness that's coming.
Eventually the BEV ecosystem will capture all the edge cases as the costs trend down over time and the batteries become higher performance and more ubiquitous. Working patterns will end up being adjusted to match the capabilities of the electric system.
740EVTORQUES said:
I actually find my EV6 GT just as engaging as my 997. Not the same, different, but just as much fun in its own right.
Off on a Black Forest tour in the 997 in a couple of days.
Horses for courses, they’re both great.
Open your mind and there’s a world of electric driving to enjoy out there!
I dont even like PDK Off on a Black Forest tour in the 997 in a couple of days.
Horses for courses, they’re both great.
Open your mind and there’s a world of electric driving to enjoy out there!
Three pedals is Nirvana
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