RE: Polestar 5 prototype charges in 10 minutes
Discussion
A step in the right direction, certainly. 10 min is still slower than at a pump, if we assume that EV charging on the go and filling up with dinosaur juice have roughly the same amount of ancillary faffing about associated with them (queuing, parking, paying etc), butit would be more than liveable assuming enough chargers.
I'm still never convinced by "this improvement means further improvements are just round the corner" arguments, mind. Saying that in two years the whole process will be faster and more pleasant than filling a petrol tank doesn't have any bearing on my buying decisions today.
I'm still never convinced by "this improvement means further improvements are just round the corner" arguments, mind. Saying that in two years the whole process will be faster and more pleasant than filling a petrol tank doesn't have any bearing on my buying decisions today.
Does no one else see the future that EVs will bring?
2 big issues for me,
1st is privacy and technology overload: I don't want an app for every f***ing charging point, or OTA updates, or 'always connected', constant tracking by GPS or data harvesting by companies.
2nd is the upcoming mobility disparity between rich and poor. The rich can have their new EVs with fast charging and claimed 300 mile ranges, everyone else will be stuck with worn out cr*p and as a byproduct be more geographically restricted. The rich can charge cheaply on their driveway, the poor will be exploited by hiked on-street charging prices.
Give me an EV that does what my current 10 year old car does. Nothing more, nothing less. It hasn't lost range, it fills up in moments, theres no apps or tracking, "lane-assist" or other smart bullsh*t.
Rant over
2 big issues for me,
1st is privacy and technology overload: I don't want an app for every f***ing charging point, or OTA updates, or 'always connected', constant tracking by GPS or data harvesting by companies.
2nd is the upcoming mobility disparity between rich and poor. The rich can have their new EVs with fast charging and claimed 300 mile ranges, everyone else will be stuck with worn out cr*p and as a byproduct be more geographically restricted. The rich can charge cheaply on their driveway, the poor will be exploited by hiked on-street charging prices.
Give me an EV that does what my current 10 year old car does. Nothing more, nothing less. It hasn't lost range, it fills up in moments, theres no apps or tracking, "lane-assist" or other smart bullsh*t.
Rant over
GT9 said:
MRMNB said:
1st is privacy and technology overload: I don't want an app for every f***ing charging point, or OTA updates, or 'always connected', constant tracking by GPS or data harvesting by companies.
Are you paying for your fuel with cash?MRMNB said:
Does no one else see the future that EVs will bring?
2 big issues for me,
1st is privacy and technology overload: I don't want an app for every f***ing charging point, or OTA updates, or 'always connected', constant tracking by GPS or data harvesting by companies.
2nd is the upcoming mobility disparity between rich and poor. The rich can have their new EVs with fast charging and claimed 300 mile ranges, everyone else will be stuck with worn out cr*p and as a byproduct be more geographically restricted. The rich can charge cheaply on their driveway, the poor will be exploited by hiked on-street charging prices.
Give me an EV that does what my current 10 year old car does. Nothing more, nothing less. It hasn't lost range, it fills up in moments, theres no apps or tracking, "lane-assist" or other smart bullsh*t.
Rant over
£1.55 a litre for a cheap 10 year old 'economical' diesel car says that the poor are already being shafted.2 big issues for me,
1st is privacy and technology overload: I don't want an app for every f***ing charging point, or OTA updates, or 'always connected', constant tracking by GPS or data harvesting by companies.
2nd is the upcoming mobility disparity between rich and poor. The rich can have their new EVs with fast charging and claimed 300 mile ranges, everyone else will be stuck with worn out cr*p and as a byproduct be more geographically restricted. The rich can charge cheaply on their driveway, the poor will be exploited by hiked on-street charging prices.
Give me an EV that does what my current 10 year old car does. Nothing more, nothing less. It hasn't lost range, it fills up in moments, theres no apps or tracking, "lane-assist" or other smart bullsh*t.
Rant over
MRMNB said:
Does no one else see the future that EVs will bring?
2 big issues for me,
1st is privacy and technology overload: I don't want an app for every f***ing charging point, or OTA updates, or 'always connected', constant tracking by GPS or data harvesting by companies.
2nd is the upcoming mobility disparity between rich and poor. The rich can have their new EVs with fast charging and claimed 300 mile ranges, everyone else will be stuck with worn out cr*p and as a byproduct be more geographically restricted. The rich can charge cheaply on their driveway, the poor will be exploited by hiked on-street charging prices.
Give me an EV that does what my current 10 year old car does. Nothing more, nothing less. It hasn't lost range, it fills up in moments, theres no apps or tracking, "lane-assist" or other smart bullsh*t.
Rant over
The 1st point is already here, if you are feeling left out then buy a newer car. You would be horrified by how much your mobile phone sends back to the networks, manufacturers and any app developers output you have on your phone.2 big issues for me,
1st is privacy and technology overload: I don't want an app for every f***ing charging point, or OTA updates, or 'always connected', constant tracking by GPS or data harvesting by companies.
2nd is the upcoming mobility disparity between rich and poor. The rich can have their new EVs with fast charging and claimed 300 mile ranges, everyone else will be stuck with worn out cr*p and as a byproduct be more geographically restricted. The rich can charge cheaply on their driveway, the poor will be exploited by hiked on-street charging prices.
Give me an EV that does what my current 10 year old car does. Nothing more, nothing less. It hasn't lost range, it fills up in moments, theres no apps or tracking, "lane-assist" or other smart bullsh*t.
Rant over
The 2nd point is interesting, will be interesting how this plays out..
MRMNB said:
Does no one else see the future that EVs will bring?
2 big issues for me,
1st is privacy and technology overload: I don't want an app for every f***ing charging point, or OTA updates, or 'always connected', constant tracking by GPS or data harvesting by companies.
2nd is the upcoming mobility disparity between rich and poor. The rich can have their new EVs with fast charging and claimed 300 mile ranges, everyone else will be stuck with worn out cr*p and as a byproduct be more geographically restricted. The rich can charge cheaply on their driveway, the poor will be exploited by hiked on-street charging prices.
Give me an EV that does what my current 10 year old car does. Nothing more, nothing less. It hasn't lost range, it fills up in moments, theres no apps or tracking, "lane-assist" or other smart bullsh*t.
Rant over
99% of that applies to modern ICE cars also, which have OTA updates, apps, GPS tracking, etc. Even range - your 10 year old ICE car will almost certainly have become less efficient and lost some range over that period, albeit perhaps not as much as an EV. In the real world https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/study-real-life-tesla... measures a loss of ~15% of range over 10 years. So ~250 miles range after 10 years of use, if you started with a ~300 mile range car.2 big issues for me,
1st is privacy and technology overload: I don't want an app for every f***ing charging point, or OTA updates, or 'always connected', constant tracking by GPS or data harvesting by companies.
2nd is the upcoming mobility disparity between rich and poor. The rich can have their new EVs with fast charging and claimed 300 mile ranges, everyone else will be stuck with worn out cr*p and as a byproduct be more geographically restricted. The rich can charge cheaply on their driveway, the poor will be exploited by hiked on-street charging prices.
Give me an EV that does what my current 10 year old car does. Nothing more, nothing less. It hasn't lost range, it fills up in moments, theres no apps or tracking, "lane-assist" or other smart bullsh*t.
Rant over
250 miles of range comfortably gets you from London to York or Plymouth in a single hit, or Birmingham to Newcastle, for example. Not exactly the "worn out cr*p" hyperbole you suggest. Batteries are also getting better all the time and are certainly improved on cars from 10 years ago.
I agree with you with respect to driveway vs. public infrastructure charging costs, though. That is a hard one to square, given you're trying to recover the cost of new infrastructure vs. comparing against existing power distribution to houses that's been paid for many times over.
herebebeasties said:
99% of that applies to modern ICE cars also, which have OTA updates, apps, GPS tracking, etc. Even range - your 10 year old ICE car will almost certainly have become less efficient and lost some range over that period, albeit perhaps not as much as an EV. In the real world https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/study-real-life-tesla... measures a loss of ~15% of range over 10 years. So ~250 miles range after 10 years of use, if you started with a ~300 mile range car.
250 miles of range comfortably gets you from London to York or Plymouth in a single hit, or Birmingham to Newcastle, for example. Not exactly the "worn out cr*p" hyperbole you suggest. Batteries are also getting better all the time and are certainly improved on cars from 10 years ago.
I agree with you with respect to driveway vs. public infrastructure charging costs, though. That is a hard one to square, given you're trying to recover the cost of new infrastructure vs. comparing against existing power distribution to houses that's been paid for many times over.
True, which is why I included the 10year old bit, I similarly have no interest in a new ICE car because of the technology. Maybe thats true for this with a particular model Tesla, but what about other marques such as the Nissan Leaf? But as you say, batteries are getting better all the time, which kind of is my point about the rich can afford a tool that can go 300 miles, whereas the poor get whats left. Can you imagine the used car market when the majority are EVs? A whole car getting scrapped because its battery has died is not something most dealers can accommodate.250 miles of range comfortably gets you from London to York or Plymouth in a single hit, or Birmingham to Newcastle, for example. Not exactly the "worn out cr*p" hyperbole you suggest. Batteries are also getting better all the time and are certainly improved on cars from 10 years ago.
I agree with you with respect to driveway vs. public infrastructure charging costs, though. That is a hard one to square, given you're trying to recover the cost of new infrastructure vs. comparing against existing power distribution to houses that's been paid for many times over.
MRMNB said:
A whole car getting scrapped because its battery has died is not something most dealers can accommodate.
That isn't going to happen. The batteries are near 100% recyclable. The cost of recycling (refurbishing?) batteries will reduce as scale increases over the coming years.An old cheap EV in 5-10 years' time is going to be massively more reliable than the cheap diesel s
te that the poorest people have been driving for the past 10-15 years.These arguments about EVs being anti-poor make no sense. We've barely begun a 30 year transition.
MRMNB said:
A whole car getting scrapped because its battery has died...
If you approach this topic with assumptions like this you are bound to feel threatened by it. In any case, batteries (dead or otherwise) have intrinsic value in their materials.
This is the upshot of not burning stuff.
You can recycle it.
Tycho said:
biggbn said:
But can it tow a horsebox for 700 miles without stopping up a hill in minus 16 degree weather with the heater, radio, heated seats and steering wheel on max. If it can't, it's no bloody good to me. No bloody good I tell ya...
But the one thing that does disappoint is that instead of efficiency we get huge batteries and fast charging. Harry's Garage was right - many cars are really not efficient and while the Tesla is the best, are we really saying the collective brains can't get that a lot better?
So yes I see all the stuff about battery density etc but it's to store more power, I really don't see much about reducing consumption which would really be the real win?
GT9 said:
If you approach this topic with assumptions like this you are bound to feel threatened by it.
In any case, batteries (dead or otherwise) have intrinsic value in their materials.
This is the upshot of not burning stuff.
You can recycle it.
I can't recycle it and it doesn't look like manufacturers want anyone to try eitherIn any case, batteries (dead or otherwise) have intrinsic value in their materials.
This is the upshot of not burning stuff.
You can recycle it.
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportat...
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/electriccars/a...
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/359993/electric...
Numeric said:
Tycho said:
biggbn said:
But can it tow a horsebox for 700 miles without stopping up a hill in minus 16 degree weather with the heater, radio, heated seats and steering wheel on max. If it can't, it's no bloody good to me. No bloody good I tell ya...
But the one thing that does disappoint is that instead of efficiency we get huge batteries and fast charging. Harry's Garage was right - many cars are really not efficient and while the Tesla is the best, are we really saying the collective brains can't get that a lot better?
So yes I see all the stuff about battery density etc but it's to store more power, I really don't see much about reducing consumption which would really be the real win?
MRMNB said:
GT9 said:
If you approach this topic with assumptions like this you are bound to feel threatened by it.
In any case, batteries (dead or otherwise) have intrinsic value in their materials.
This is the upshot of not burning stuff.
You can recycle it.
I can't recycle it and it doesn't look like manufacturers want anyone to try eitherIn any case, batteries (dead or otherwise) have intrinsic value in their materials.
This is the upshot of not burning stuff.
You can recycle it.
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportat...
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/electriccars/a...
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/359993/electric...
Sure, we can assume nothing will ever improve, carbon footprints will remain forever the same as they were in 2018, the grid will never improve, etc.
Alternatively, maybe look at what is in pipeline regarding battery recycling...
https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/en/electric-and-hybri...
https://group.mercedes-benz.com/company/news/recyc...
https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/global/article/deta...
https://www.fortum.com/services/battery-recycling
https://www.redwoodmaterials.com
Firebobby said:
sidesauce said:
That's one in the eye for the argument that EVs take too long to charge. Let's see what they'll complain about next...
Still 3 times slower than I can put 300 miles of range in my beemer
braddo said:
MRMNB said:
A whole car getting scrapped because its battery has died is not something most dealers can accommodate.
That isn't going to happen. The batteries are near 100% recyclable. The cost of recycling (refurbishing?) batteries will reduce as scale increases over the coming years.An old cheap EV in 5-10 years' time is going to be massively more reliable than the cheap diesel s
te that the poorest people have been driving for the past 10-15 years.These arguments about EVs being anti-poor make no sense. We've barely begun a 30 year transition.
People buying ten year old diesel cars moaning about a brand new EV being expensive, but they couldnt have afforded their 2012 320D when it was new either.
Things start out expensive, then the market gets saturated and prices come down, the first iterations depreciate and become affordable.
Eventually all those legions of Tesla Model 3s will be 5 to 10 grand, and suddenly people realise that they can afford one, and their attitude changes now its a possibility, we will see committed diesel owners waxing lyrical about their EV, thats why its best not to be to vociferous about your hatred as a lot will look right plonkers doing a U turn worthy of a Tory MP.
There will always be some that will stick with it like its their hill to die on, and they will, meh. Like that person that has done five years of veganism but really fancies a steak and now hats nut roast with a passion, but the climb down, potential ribbing and questions and general agro would be even worse than going to work in a suit when you dont normally, wear one.
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