Shown up by a 330d saloon
Discussion
off_again said:
knoxville said:
diesel = slow
Oh dear....
Six months ago I was in the beetle and did battle with a 535d saloon.
I sh1t you not but the old blackie's anvil was buried to the bulkhead in 5th at some outrageous lick before finally pulling a gap.
Yes, it had been DMS'd (I'm assuming) but the revelation was emphatic.
My man Reggie was taking notes and I'm sure, subconciously, that experience explains his forthcoming punt with smoked oil.
Rods - VMax veteran and serial expender of mucha wonga in the dilth-crystal bay of his hugely modified 996 Turbo (a car which recently saw off a Carrera GT at Bruntingthorpe) - has such a car for his daily plodderance.
As a chap for whom the term 'fiscal constraint' has almost no significance, the choice to not buy an E60 M5 instead was no mere acknowledgement of the clattery car's frugality.
No, no - these are SERIOUS pereformance cars by ANY standards...
They have been doing serious work with petrols for years, now is the time of the diesel - you put a litre of fuel in an engine, you get a third more power from the same volume of fuel in a diesel (roughly 
). Petrols have been advanced and advanced for years because of the perception that they are the only true way to get "perfomance", the LM rules may be sqewed in terms of displacement but imagine if it was about MPG, dB or some other arbitury figure - is displacement and turbos fair?
). Petrols have been advanced and advanced for years because of the perception that they are the only true way to get "perfomance", the LM rules may be sqewed in terms of displacement but imagine if it was about MPG, dB or some other arbitury figure - is displacement and turbos fair?On the way back from Le Mans 2003 in the Griff (500) there was a 330d behind us for miles, away from the lights it was no contest, the Griff just left it as expected, but mid range I was suprised how much I had to push the Griff to pull a good gap. They must a great all round car.
One morning whilst driving in a spirited fashion
(i.e 6/10ths) but by no means at the upper end of the scale (8 to 10/10ths) on my favorite stretch of fast, sweeping dual carriage way, with 3 fast roundabouts, I noticed a 3.2 TT following me. It was only when I slowed and let him past so I could gauge the situation that I realised he was more or less driving the thing to its limits (with his girlfriend/wife sitting there with a face on 
). I toyed with it for a few more miles and I am sure he thought he had the better of me but just as we exited the last roundabout I 'let him av it', i.e full throttle in 2nd gear in the Cerb 
..... The look on their faces... 
One morning whilst driving in a spirited fashion
(i.e 6/10ths) but by no means at the upper end of the scale (8 to 10/10ths) on my favorite stretch of fast, sweeping dual carriage way, with 3 fast roundabouts, I noticed a 3.2 TT following me. It was only when I slowed and let him past so I could gauge the situation that I realised he was more or less driving the thing to its limits (with his girlfriend/wife sitting there with a face on ). I toyed with it for a few more miles and I am sure he thought he had the better of me but just as we exited the last roundabout I 'let him av it', i.e full throttle in 2nd gear in the Cerb ..... The look on their faces... 
When i lived in Germany i was doing a lot of Autobhan km`s and the way in which der Diesels would pull from behind you at around 150-160kmph and just zap off past you into the distance was quite amazing , at the time i had an A8 4:2 petrol and to keep with the bigger diesels was quite a struggle at times
derestrictor said:
off_again said:
knoxville said:
diesel = slow
Oh dear....
Six months ago I was in the beetle and did battle with a 535d saloon.
I sh1t you not but the old blackie's anvil was buried to the bulkhead in 5th at some outrageous lick before finally pulling a gap.
Yes, it had been DMS'd (I'm assuming) but the revelation was emphatic.
My man Reggie was taking notes and I'm sure, subconciously, that experience explains his forthcoming punt with smoked oil.
Rods - VMax veteran and serial expender of mucha wonga in the dilth-crystal bay of his hugely modified 996 Turbo (a car which recently saw off a Carrera GT at Bruntingthorpe) - has such a car for his daily plodderance.
As a chap for whom the term 'fiscal constraint' has almost no significance, the choice to not buy an E60 M5 instead was no mere acknowledgement of the clattery car's frugality.
No, no - these are SERIOUS pereformance cars by ANY standards...
Quite. Anyone who says that diesels are slow is talking out their bottom. Modern diesels of the 3 litre variety are seriously capable machines (even 2.0 litre mdoels are handy) and fit for a purpose, i.e. bombing up and down our highways and byways in all kinds of traffic. All that low down urge (massive shove in the case of the 530/535d and similar Merc and Audi offerings) is just the ticket in the stop-start world that is motorway driving these days.
I've tailed several German performance diesels over many miles in the past and have always been impressed. My lowly, tuned MR2T has sometimes struggled to match the stupendous and instantaneous torque that these cars deliver in the 2000-4000rpm range. I really can see the appeal. If I had the money I'd love a 330/335d touring as a motorway muncher and general do-it-all tool plus a little something for the weekend.
Edited by Top Trump on Thursday 19th October 10:51
Top Trump said:
stupendous and instantaneous torque that these cars deliver in the 2000-4000rpm range.
But it's not instantaneous, and not really stupendous once it's at the wheels. Also that rev range is basically the top 2/3rds of the rev range assuming 1000-4000rpm rev range total.
I've done this before, a 4000rpm, 240bhp derv with 300lbft is no better than an 8000rpm, 240bhp petrol with 150lbft!
Infact the petrol often displays a nicer torque delivery (flat) whereas the derv is a mountain in comparison.
A derv goes quick without trying very hard, and goes only marginally quicker when trying very hard vs a petrol, that is why they make you think they are very quick.
But yes, you have to rev the petrol hard, but if you put the derv dials over the petrol ones, and wear ear muffs to hide the noise, you'd suddenly appreciate the petrol, idling at super-low rpm, instant torque and tractable from low-rpm, super smooth delivery too.
I like dervs, very handy for wafting and the commute and do offer a decent turn of speed in certain in-gear accelerations, but outright, when you NEED to get the most from it, it's still only got X bhp, and a 220bhp 330D is still only 220bhp, or about 150bhp/tonne... hardly setting the world on fire. Just deceptive amounts of power early on give the impression of alot more speed than they have if you actually try get any more from them!
Dave
Edited by Mr Whippy on Thursday 19th October 11:45
Mr Whippy said:
Top Trump said:
stupendous and instantaneous torque that these cars deliver in the 2000-4000rpm range.
But it's not instantaneous, and not really stupendous once it's at the wheels. Also that rev range is basically the top 2/3rds of the rev range assuming 1000-4000rpm rev range total.
I've done this before, a 4000rpm, 240bhp derv with 300lbft is no better than an 8000rpm, 240bhp petrol with 150lbft!
Infact the petrol often displays a nicer torque delivery (flat) whereas the derv is a mountain in comparison.
A derv goes quick without trying very hard, and goes only marginally quicker when trying very hard vs a petrol, that is why they make you think they are very quick.
But yes, you have to rev the petrol hard, but if you put the derv dials over the petrol ones, and wear ear muffs to hide the noise, you'd suddenly appreciate the petrol, idling at super-low rpm, instant torque and tractable from low-rpm, super smooth delivery too.
I like dervs, very handy for wafting and the commute and do offer a decent turn of speed in certain in-gear accelerations, but outright, when you NEED to get the most from it, it's still only got X bhp, and a 220bhp 330D is still only 220bhp, or about 150bhp/tonne... hardly setting the world on fire. Just deceptive amounts of power early on give the impression of alot more speed than they have if you actually try get any more from them!
Dave
Edited by Mr Whippy on Thursday 19th October 11:45
Agreed, a big na petrol engine is more pleasing for obvious reasons. Higher revving, bigger bhp potential, more measured, smoother, longer and more progressive torque curves etc. But my point was that for the specific task of eating up the miles in stop start driving conditions, diesels are very effective. The torque band is narrow but for most of the time this is all that's needed. I commute to work in a petrol 2.0 litre turbo and sometimes find it a struggle to say on song. Below 3,000rpm and it's boring. On the motorway I just want to get past 4000rpm and really ride the wave of torque on full boost but constantly have to back off as the conditions/traffic prevent me from doing so. It can be quite frustrating. On a clear road free of traffic I could muller the TDI brigade but darting about it's slightly different.
Regarding the instantaneous hit, yes, it isn't quite so. There's always a bit of lag, esp with a single turbo set-up but it is very brief and the mountain of torque that is unleashed more than makes up for it. I bet the 535d (3 litre twin turbo) is almost lag free though.
deva link said:
pentoman said:
...followed me out of work the other day onto a dual carriageway, and I floored it as the road opened up - she floored it too. Even though I was redlining it through every gear
Hmm - you both red-lined your *cold* engines. Her car's turbo would love that.
Sigh, how did I know some picky, critical old bugger would pick up on that!
Dunno about hers as diesels take longer to warm up, but mine was nice and warm due to sitting forever at the stupid traffic lights which only let about about 5 cars through at a time! It even has an oil temperature guage to be sure.
Another story from just yesterday funnily enough. Myself and a new Volvo V70 D5 on my outside(180bhp 2.5?) came off a roundabout onto an open dual carriageway, but there was a car infront of me. He floored it, and once he was no longer alongside me I pulled out to follow him, totally flooring it too. I was right behind him, and he pulled back into the nearside lane so I had a clear run ahead to overtake him if I had the power, but he was still flooring it through the gears.
And, for a scary moment, I actually really thought I was not going to be able to get any closer to him or to overtake. I thought if his car kept pulling like it was, he might even pull away from me! I couldn't believe it! Luckily his acceleration seemed to let up as he had to change up a gear, and fortunately on looking down I had loads of revs left, and instantly I started pulling him in quicker and quicker, even on changing up into 4th, and I finally breezed past him quickly enough not to even get a look at the driver. Great safe fun, and a brilliant demonstration of the effectiveness of turbo diesels, but also their lack of top end.
Mr Whippy said:
Top Trump said:
stupendous and instantaneous torque that these cars deliver in the 2000-4000rpm range.
But it's not instantaneous, and not really stupendous once it's at the wheels. Also that rev range is basically the top 2/3rds of the rev range assuming 1000-4000rpm rev range total.
I've done this before, a 4000rpm, 240bhp derv with 300lbft is no better than an 8000rpm, 240bhp petrol with 150lbft!
Infact the petrol often displays a nicer torque delivery (flat) whereas the derv is a mountain in comparison.
A derv goes quick without trying very hard, and goes only marginally quicker when trying very hard vs a petrol, that is why they make you think they are very quick.
But yes, you have to rev the petrol hard, but if you put the derv dials over the petrol ones, and wear ear muffs to hide the noise, you'd suddenly appreciate the petrol, idling at super-low rpm, instant torque and tractable from low-rpm, super smooth delivery too.
While I agree with the majority of your post, I think "nicer torque delivery" is quite subjective and also very dependant what kind of speed range we're talking about. At higher speeds and higher gears, the car with more torque available sooner will most likely stump all over the car with less torque available later. This so happens to be quite relevant when overtaking.
For instance, my Lotus Exige in its basic form (normally aspirated) with the Yamaha engine has practically no torque available under 6000 rpm and delivers its peak at around 7800, 700 rpm short of the red line. A car like a Astra Coupe turbo with the same output (189bhp) but with a lot more weight but more torque much lower down the rev band is nearly as quick in the higher gears.
Cheers Phil
steve bowen said:
mackie1 said:
PS. What have you done to it to get those wheel horsepower readings? It must be pushing out well over 400bhp at the flywheel.
Simple, dyno'd it the US the figures are always noticeably higher. There's an american on the uk MR2 forum and he admits cars with identical spec, running identical boost, seem to make 10% more power in the US, yet also run virtually identical 1/4 mile times when running on road tyres (most US 1/4 cars will run radials)
Correct
The general rule is, if its a US made dyno, knock 10% off the wheel fig to get the eq fig in Europe.
I HATE GATSO said:
Taking it easy down the A38 today doing 70 ish, when i spotted something blasting up behind. So dropped down a couple of gears to lose him..................but it just didnt happen, he sat right on my arse. Slow down and pull upto the island, look over and its a 330d saloon. So think i'll do him off the line, wrong, he gets a car length on me in 1st and about 2 lengths by the top end of second gear 
So drop back and pretend i wasnt really trying 
Lesson learnt, my car isnt that quick must keep saving for a saggy
So drop back and pretend i wasnt really trying Lesson learnt, my car isnt that quick must keep saving for a saggy
Edited by I HATE GATSO on Tuesday 17th October 20:59
So you were being a boy racer
Diesels... Gotta watch out for them
Andy Mac said:
I HATE GATSO said:
Taking it easy down the A38 today doing 70 ish, when i spotted something blasting up behind. So dropped down a couple of gears to lose him..................but it just didnt happen, he sat right on my arse. Slow down and pull upto the island, look over and its a 330d saloon. So think i'll do him off the line, wrong, he gets a car length on me in 1st and about 2 lengths by the top end of second gear So drop back and pretend i wasnt really trying
Lesson learnt, my car isnt that quick must keep saving for a saggy
So drop back and pretend i wasnt really trying Lesson learnt, my car isnt that quick must keep saving for a saggy
Edited by I HATE GATSO on Tuesday 17th October 20:59
So you were being a boy racer
Diesels... Gotta watch out for them
I allow myself to have a couple "boy racer" moments per month
and believe me i wont be burnt again by under estimating diesels excuse the pun Edited by I HATE GATSO on Thursday 19th October 18:55
I don't really see the point in the whole petrol vs diesel debate, but what I will say is that if I had to travel decent distances to work and want a nice cruising car I would defintely get a diesel. I know that people winge about them still only being x bhp and its all about gearing etc... but if you are driving along the motorway at 75mhp and you want to overtake quick who really is going to bother dropping down to third just to get the "optimum" power most people aren't blatantly.
Diesels are quicker in those situations and alot easier to live with in those situations, and are pretty quick even when nailed.
Oh and about the comments about bhp/ton and how that shows how quick a car is etc... I was going to the lakes last weekend with my mate and he has a mk4 golf tdi 110bhp version, and I have a pretty healthy 1.9 205 gti that is not slow. If you compare power to weight my car "should be a lot quicker" pug - 145bhp/ton, golf 80!!bhp/ton
All I know is that on a long stretch of road I overtook a car in third gear with it nailed to the red line and all the way to the top of 4th gear (where I backed off) he was sat on my bumper the whole time. And thats not even a "quick" diesel.
Diesels are quicker in those situations and alot easier to live with in those situations, and are pretty quick even when nailed.
Oh and about the comments about bhp/ton and how that shows how quick a car is etc... I was going to the lakes last weekend with my mate and he has a mk4 golf tdi 110bhp version, and I have a pretty healthy 1.9 205 gti that is not slow. If you compare power to weight my car "should be a lot quicker" pug - 145bhp/ton, golf 80!!bhp/ton
All I know is that on a long stretch of road I overtook a car in third gear with it nailed to the red line and all the way to the top of 4th gear (where I backed off) he was sat on my bumper the whole time. And thats not even a "quick" diesel.
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