RE: Caparo Lays Claim To Top Gear Power Lap
Discussion
XTR2Turbo said:
Back to the issue of speed bumps. Unfortunately I seem to recall that the recommended design for a speed bump is approx 100mm high and so a Caparo wouldn't make it over this even with adjustable suspension.
no, your description of 100mm high is a description of a kerb. a speed bump maybe 100mm but it has sloppy bits so you can drive over it.once the T1 has got adjustable suspension, it should be retested as per their own rules. its about time that the manufacturers got serious about making performance cars again.
TonyHetherington said:
article said:
The vehicle’s designer, Ben Scott-Geddes added: 'The model we supplied to Top Gear was one of our final engineering vehicles without adjustable ride height and electronic active driver control systems which are standard on our production models.
Caparo in "not supplying right car" shocker.How did it end up with an engine that's used to having a team of technicians on it every time it goes out? What happens every time the T1 goes out? A team of technicians appears... Can you imagine a normal track day adventure in this thing? Get up in morning, load skid lid and sarnies, set off to track, stop for fuel and get some cigarettes, oops.... the wing caught on the way into the petrol station and now the engine won't start. What do you do? Call the "Science Fiction AA"? Anyway, assuming you get to the trackday (ie you've not understeered off the road or broken down), how much fun is driving a car vastly faster than anything else? I mean everything, but everything, is going to be holding you up.
What is the point of this news release? You get one shot at the TG power lap - the exception being Koenigsegg for obvious good-for-telly reasons. Caparo knew they had one shot which is why, I suspect, a lighter (missing parts) T1 was prepared and optimised to stick like shit to a blanket on the fast bends (unlike the initial K'egg attempt). Will added speed hump friendliness make for a faster lap? Unlikely - more likely to expose first lap as non-standard "press car". Caparo has now, apparently, admitted it wasn't a production car. I can't imagine Top Gear asked for anything other than a production car. Doesn't Caparo know when to put down the shovel???
The Ultima is a far more relevant car and the fact it's within a couple of seconds of the Caparo on the TG track torpedos any case for the T1 IMHO.
AJM6 said:
The distinction between road cars and cars that are road legal is simply one of utility.
A road car must have:
1. all weather protection
2. some useable storage space
3. The ability to carry at least one passenger
4. the ability to negotiate all standard road traffic obstacles (humps etc) without external adjustment.
Oh yes, and the owner must be happy to leave it unattended in a public place.
Whether the owner decides to make use any of the above is beside the point.
Therefore, Ferraris, Veyrons and Lambos etc are road cars and Atoms, Caparos and Radicals etc are street legal track cars. Comparing them is a bit daft - you wouldn't compare a Eurofighter with a 747 would you?
PS. This is my first post, so be gentle with me!
Welcome to PH. A road car must have:
1. all weather protection
2. some useable storage space
3. The ability to carry at least one passenger
4. the ability to negotiate all standard road traffic obstacles (humps etc) without external adjustment.
Oh yes, and the owner must be happy to leave it unattended in a public place.
Whether the owner decides to make use any of the above is beside the point.
Therefore, Ferraris, Veyrons and Lambos etc are road cars and Atoms, Caparos and Radicals etc are street legal track cars. Comparing them is a bit daft - you wouldn't compare a Eurofighter with a 747 would you?
PS. This is my first post, so be gentle with me!
A road car is a car that is intended mainly to be driven on the road, rather than one which it is physically possible and tenuously legal to drive on the road in order to get to a circuit.
All-weather is not vital, nor is ability to carry a passenger or luggage. Those are not necessary criteria for a road bike, so why should they be criteria for a road car?
Ability to get across (legal) speed bumps would be relevant, as they are part of the road environment.
I wouldn't think that the Caparo is a "road car" for the simple reason that, in order to accomodate its downforce, its springs are far too harsh to be tolerable on the road. Even a guy from Caparo was quoted as saying that you wouldn't want to drive one on the public roads for longer than five or ten minutes.
bosscerbera said:
TonyHetherington said:
article said:
The vehicle’s designer, Ben Scott-Geddes added: 'The model we supplied to Top Gear was one of our final engineering vehicles without adjustable ride height and electronic active driver control systems which are standard on our production models.
Caparo in "not supplying right car" shocker.How did it end up with an engine that's used to having a team of technicians on it every time it goes out? What happens every time the T1 goes out? A team of technicians appears... Can you imagine a normal track day adventure in this thing? Get up in morning, load skid lid and sarnies, set off to track, stop for fuel and get some cigarettes, oops.... the wing caught on the way into the petrol station and now the engine won't start. What do you do? Call the "Science Fiction AA"? Anyway, assuming you get to the trackday (ie you've not understeered off the road or broken down), how much fun is driving a car vastly faster than anything else? I mean everything, but everything, is going to be holding you up.
What is the point of this news release? You get one shot at the TG power lap - the exception being Koenigsegg for obvious good-for-telly reasons. Caparo knew they had one shot which is why, I suspect, a lighter (missing parts) T1 was prepared and optimised to stick like shit to a blanket on the fast bends (unlike the initial K'egg attempt). Will added speed hump friendliness make for a faster lap? Unlikely - more likely to expose first lap as non-standard "press car". Caparo has now, apparently, admitted it wasn't a production car. I can't imagine Top Gear asked for anything other than a production car. Doesn't Caparo know when to put down the shovel???
The Ultima is a far more relevant car and the fact it's within a couple of seconds of the Caparo on the TG track torpedos any case for the T1 IMHO.
As for splitting hairs about the lap time- who cares? I for one would not drive a T1 on the road if Caparo paid me.
(@ Boss Cerbera)
dapearson said:
What i find completely hypocritical is that JC makes the distinction between road vs track cars, but only when it suits. Yet when it comes to testing a road car (i.e. M5 estate vs Merc AMG estate in the last episode) where do they go to test it? A test route encompassing many different types of roads/environments? No. The runway at manchester airport..at night...with flames and explosions in the background. Useless. Inept. A waste of money. A waste of my time.
5th Gear last night was much better, but even that is attempting to satisfy the chav element by testing the R8 vs 911 by seeing which was easier to pull off an impressive drift. Nonsense.
You can find Chris Goffey clips on youtube old boy.5th Gear last night was much better, but even that is attempting to satisfy the chav element by testing the R8 vs 911 by seeing which was easier to pull off an impressive drift. Nonsense.
but consider TG would be cancelled by now if it had stayed in its original format. As JC said, its arguably the most watched program on BBC2. If TG had viewing figures like 5th Gear the BBC lentil brigade would have cut it down years ago.
I am amazed at the anti Caparo sentiment on PH not just on this thread but on others. One could argue most performance cars, particularly those that are never driven on a track, are pointless.
As a petrolhead I love cars like the Caparo and would love a go of one. We should applaud the fact that someone has made a car like this, in itself no small achievement considering what happens to most new supercar manufacturers.
I hope they can make a speed bump adjustable version (iirc one of the Lambos they tested had a speedbump button to pump up the front ride height) and get the record once and for all.
Honestly think I have stumbled onto a Guardian readers forum when I read some of the criticism directed at the Caparo, of course it is not practical but I bet it is great fun.
Ben
As a petrolhead I love cars like the Caparo and would love a go of one. We should applaud the fact that someone has made a car like this, in itself no small achievement considering what happens to most new supercar manufacturers.
I hope they can make a speed bump adjustable version (iirc one of the Lambos they tested had a speedbump button to pump up the front ride height) and get the record once and for all.
Honestly think I have stumbled onto a Guardian readers forum when I read some of the criticism directed at the Caparo, of course it is not practical but I bet it is great fun.
Ben
BigBen said:
I am amazed at the anti Caparo sentiment on PH
I think people are getting bored of it, almost. Annoyed with it.I love the fact that it exists (exactly as I do the Veyron) and it is great to behold and see, but constant blunder after blunder, and then an almost "whining" that they didn't supply a production car is just getting a bit, I dunno, "much".
I stress, I love that it exists and the world would be a poorer place without it, but I think they've had a marketing disaster and it's a fine example of how not to launch a car. Launch it when it's ready, even if that is next year. Bugatti did it, at large cost, and fair play to them; it came out perfect in the end. They got bad press because of all the delays, but the car that resulted was awesome.
Caparo have simply got it the wrong way round.
TonyHetherington said:
BigBen said:
I am amazed at the anti Caparo sentiment on PH
I think people are getting bored of it, almost. Annoyed with it.I love the fact that it exists (exactly as I do the Veyron) and it is great to behold and see, but constant blunder after blunder, and then an almost "whining" that they didn't supply a production car is just getting a bit, I dunno, "much".
I don't remember anyone getting to drive pre-production Veyrons. I'm sure the first journalist drives were the first production Veyrons.
Also, PH especially, has this huge snobbery towards the Veyron. Its a great car and I didn't think I'd like it, but it is simply stunning and hard not to like. However, the moment anyone says "our car is faster", PHers seem to get all defensive of the Veyron.
We now have our own grown super monster car, and all we can do is kick the pre-prodcution model. Its Rover all over again which is frightfully sad.
A British team are developing a car that will hand the Veyron its arse. And then some. And all we can do is kick the thing.
If you want to see the difference in attitude between the British builders of the T1, and the Veyron, tell me the TG lap time of the Veyron.
The Hitman said:
Should TG bring on that american abomination that managed to beat the Veyrons max speed?
The Shelby SSC?Yes please, would love to see it go round the track, along with the Saleen S7 & the Callaway C16.
They wont as none of them are officially available in the UK, but any petrolhead would want to see them manhandled by the Stig.
If you can drive it from place of manufacture to the top gear circuit then thats road usable enough for me to consider it a potential road car (if not a practical one). The public can happily see that a BMW M5 is slower round the track than an Ultima, but they can also see the BMW has leather seats for 4 and a sprinkling of cup holders so they dont expect it to compete with a track day machine that happens to be road legal.
The top gear track thing is a bit of fun after all. A better test for everyday car ownsership would perhaps be, how fast can it lap the track + negotiate a section of residential road with 2 speed humps + reverse park into a tesco sized parking space + cost of oil service at dealers.
The top gear track thing is a bit of fun after all. A better test for everyday car ownsership would perhaps be, how fast can it lap the track + negotiate a section of residential road with 2 speed humps + reverse park into a tesco sized parking space + cost of oil service at dealers.
tinman0 said:
TonyHetherington said:
BigBen said:
I am amazed at the anti Caparo sentiment on PH
I think people are getting bored of it, almost. Annoyed with it.I love the fact that it exists (exactly as I do the Veyron) and it is great to behold and see, but constant blunder after blunder, and then an almost "whining" that they didn't supply a production car is just getting a bit, I dunno, "much".
I don't remember anyone getting to drive pre-production Veyrons.
Caparo can control whether who drives their pre-production cars are journos or potential buyers. They've made the corporate decision to bring in the media, and they're paying the price for it.
The pre-production Veyrons were very inferior to the finished item.
For a long time many people, including me, were not sure what the point of the Veyron was. After the car was finished, however, one saw that it made some sense.
We are still waiting for Caparo to show us how their car makes sense, although it is possible that they will do.
tinman0 said:
I think there are two problems. Firstly, Caparo keep letting people test the car when its not completed. Test vehicles are being driven by journalists and the problems are being made very public.
I don't remember anyone getting to drive pre-production Veyrons. I'm sure the first journalist drives were the first production Veyrons.
Totally agree with that. Caparo are naive in thinking that journalists will just embrace the uniqueness of it and not worry about little things, like catching fire. No. They will publicise it. It will be shown on TV and it will be discussed online.I don't remember anyone getting to drive pre-production Veyrons. I'm sure the first journalist drives were the first production Veyrons.
tinman0 said:
Also, PH especially, has this huge snobbery towards the Veyron. Its a great car and I didn't think I'd like it, but it is simply stunning and hard not to like. However, the moment anyone says "our car is faster", PHers seem to get all defensive of the Veyron.
We now have our own grown super monster car, and all we can do is kick the pre-prodcution model. Its Rover all over again which is frightfully sad.
A British team are developing a car that will hand the Veyron its arse. And then some. And all we can do is kick the thing.
If you want to see the difference in attitude between the British builders of the T1, and the Veyron, tell me the TG lap time of the Veyron.
That bit I do disagree with, though. I don't think anyone's trying to compare it with the Veyron speed-wise, handling wise, or useability wise. My mention of it above was purely as an extreme (in engineering terms) car that was very late and lengthy in it's getting-to-production. I don't think PHres are protective of the Veyron; perhaps even the opposite, there are many extreme against views of the car (just look at the threads back when it was released). We now have our own grown super monster car, and all we can do is kick the pre-prodcution model. Its Rover all over again which is frightfully sad.
A British team are developing a car that will hand the Veyron its arse. And then some. And all we can do is kick the thing.
If you want to see the difference in attitude between the British builders of the T1, and the Veyron, tell me the TG lap time of the Veyron.
I don't even recall Caparo comparing it to the Veyron, and I certainly think it's ludicrous to compare it around a track. Why not compare it on the road? They are, afterall, much publicised road cars.
I think the Ultima/Caparo "issue" is all down to the Bugatti Veyron. TG want to put it around the track, but can you imagine VWs reaction if it's second or third on the board behind two cars that are substantially cheaper, particularly in the case of the Ultima GTR720.
Edited by Monty Python on Tuesday 20th November 12:14
I don't think VW's problem would be with a Caparo or Ultima; it's plain to see for anyone with an ounce of sense why they are faster. I'd imagine VW's problem would be if other supercars were faster. The problem is, it's one track on one day with one driver and yet people place lots of importance on it, so I can understand Buggati/VW's relucatance to do it.
Drove an Ultima GTR all the way from Surrey to the Ring in 2002, made it on and off ferry easier than the Ferrari's, Lotus Espirit, Westfield etc that were with me, big rad trip with no issue whatsoever and it was the fastest out the lot at the track as well, made it nicely round carousel/mini carousel without grounding out so didnt have to go high... good ground clearance and was perfectly good on the road as on the track, including over the humps on the way!
Rule stands on top gear - if its road legal and can go over a speed bump, it should be allowed on the board, thats their rule, doesnt really matter what anyone else thinks at the end of the day! Anyone what to have an argument with JC about it feel free, doubt you will change his mind!
Rule stands on top gear - if its road legal and can go over a speed bump, it should be allowed on the board, thats their rule, doesnt really matter what anyone else thinks at the end of the day! Anyone what to have an argument with JC about it feel free, doubt you will change his mind!
I'm left wondering when Caparo decided that the production T1 would have "adjustable ride height".
I suspect it was approximately 5 minutes after they saw TG last Sunday!
And in response they send out a whiney press release about how they want to be let back on the leaderboard.
Perhaps they would be better off spending their time developing a car with an underfloor that does not fall off?
I suspect it was approximately 5 minutes after they saw TG last Sunday!
And in response they send out a whiney press release about how they want to be let back on the leaderboard.
Perhaps they would be better off spending their time developing a car with an underfloor that does not fall off?
Mars said:
Top Gear is being hypocritical here but it's their show so we live with it.
Exactly. They will feature cars and exclude them from the lap times bored purely based on what plays well to the audience. There are no 'rules'.TG is a highly successful show and unfortunately that means they can do what they want to chase ratings regardless of pressure from manufacturers and enthusiasts who feel aggrieved.
Joe Public (and the hundreds of millions of viewers around the world) don't have a clue about Ultimas/Caterhams/Radicals and watch to be entertained by well-known exotica like Ferrari and Lambo. So that's what they get.
Its a shame, because Clarkson and Co always position themselves as very pro-Britain but ignore our world-leading lightweight performance car industry and its success stories e.g. 50th anniversary of the Lotus/Caterham 7 last year, Ultima 0-100-0 time, Radical Nurburgring time (now beaten i know) whilst focussing on sort-of-British-but-actually-foreign-owned marques like Jag, Land Rover and Aston.
TG are a law unto themselves. Whether that should be the case for a publicly funded TV show
is another debate....
Caparo's PR team must be suicidal and/or unemployed. The bodged launches are a case study in how to cock up your PR and poison the media against you. Check out the hostility from Evo this month who've said something like "we didn't include it in our Car of the Year because we think its pointless and crap and they didn't give us the first go in it before it broke down!".
Having some experience with these things as a manufacturer, i'm pretty sure the media will have been banging Caparo's door down to get a drive in the prototype, Caparo will have said 'its not finished!' and the journos will have said 'don't worry we want to drive it anyway and we'll take into account that its not prodution ready.'
Then they've turned around and slagged it off for being unfinished at the 'launch'!
....could happen to any low volume manufacturer launching its first product and i think they've had a raw deal.
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