RE: PH Heroes: Subaru Impreza
Discussion
Smifffy said:
You'll be pulling out the "anyone can drive this fast, where's the skill?" one next.
Spend a little time with Don Palmer.
Got to agree with you there, I was getting bored with mine, then spent a day with Don. Found out I could not really drive it (actually could not drive fullstop) - not bored now. Swapping from Goodyears to Bridgestones helped the steering feel and a geometry setup was useful too.Spend a little time with Don Palmer.
And as it happens I also have a TVR and drive my wife's BMW quite a bit, both have points I like more than the Impreza but if I could only have one car it would be the Impreza.
Long live the scooby.
Edited by Toltec on Monday 3rd December 13:10
VladD said:
jackal said:
but boring, subdued and very mainstream or "non-special" once you've driven an EVO6
Unless you've got a Type-R, P1 or 22B, in which case the tables are turned.still lazy and dullard in comparison imo
when it comes to feel, the interface of gearlever and steering wheel to hands, pedals to feet, bum to seat etc.. the evo is in a different league. Overall the feel is also far more meatier and solid giving it a very focused and special feeling. In comparison teh P1 just felt like an normal saloon with an indecently good engine strapped to it ... brakes were appaling.
well the Impreza proved itself to be my hero again yesterday.
Coming east on the M27 just after J8 IIRC the motorway curves round sharply to the left and drops down as well (is it just before it crosses the river?).
Anyway I was in the inside-lane doing 85 leptons with the wife beside me and the kids in the back.
A late 90s Peugeot went past in the outside-lane, and turned in in-front of us.
It looked like the back end lost grip, as he/she was suddenly sideways in front of us, and they panicked, and locked the brakes.... well I've never seen so much tyresmoke. The M27 was still damp after the astonishing amount of rain (we experienced in the morning going west), so the Pug didn't seem to slow down.
I applied the brakes a bit, but then glancing back I realised I couldn't keep track of all the other vehicles behind AND the spinning car 50 feet in front, so I came off the brakes and tracked the Pug. I wanted to see where he was going before I chose where I was going to put my family in the least danger.
He maintained his momentum travelling to the left at first, spinning anticlockwise, but then moved right still spinning, and hit the central barrier. I decided that things could get messy, so I accelerated out of danger away down the inside-lane, noticing that his front bumper had shot across the M27 behind me. As soon as I was sure were would be safe, I stopped in the e-lane - my wife was already talking to the Police.
Why post this in the Impreza thread? The fact that I knew that the impreza would stop, turn, go very quickly, or 'whatever' the instant I asked it to, made all the difference in giving me time to plan my way out of a bad situation. It's my (and my kids) hero.
Coming east on the M27 just after J8 IIRC the motorway curves round sharply to the left and drops down as well (is it just before it crosses the river?).
Anyway I was in the inside-lane doing 85 leptons with the wife beside me and the kids in the back.
A late 90s Peugeot went past in the outside-lane, and turned in in-front of us.
It looked like the back end lost grip, as he/she was suddenly sideways in front of us, and they panicked, and locked the brakes.... well I've never seen so much tyresmoke. The M27 was still damp after the astonishing amount of rain (we experienced in the morning going west), so the Pug didn't seem to slow down.
I applied the brakes a bit, but then glancing back I realised I couldn't keep track of all the other vehicles behind AND the spinning car 50 feet in front, so I came off the brakes and tracked the Pug. I wanted to see where he was going before I chose where I was going to put my family in the least danger.
He maintained his momentum travelling to the left at first, spinning anticlockwise, but then moved right still spinning, and hit the central barrier. I decided that things could get messy, so I accelerated out of danger away down the inside-lane, noticing that his front bumper had shot across the M27 behind me. As soon as I was sure were would be safe, I stopped in the e-lane - my wife was already talking to the Police.
Why post this in the Impreza thread? The fact that I knew that the impreza would stop, turn, go very quickly, or 'whatever' the instant I asked it to, made all the difference in giving me time to plan my way out of a bad situation. It's my (and my kids) hero.
Edited by Orangecurry on Monday 3rd December 13:22
jackal said:
VladD said:
jackal said:
but boring, subdued and very mainstream or "non-special" once you've driven an EVO6
Unless you've got a Type-R, P1 or 22B, in which case the tables are turned.still lazy and dullard in comparison imo
when it comes to feel, the interface of gearlever and steering wheel to hands, pedals to feet, bum to seat etc.. the evo is in a different league. Overall the feel is also far more meatier and solid giving it a very focused and special feeling. In comparison teh P1 just felt like an normal saloon with an indecently good engine strapped to it ... brakes were appaling.
I drove an Evo VI Makkinnen and the P1 back to back when I bought the P1. The outcome gives the game away I suppose, but I felt that the Evo was a forensic examination whereas the scoob felt more intuitive and natural. For a 3 mile special stage I'd choose the Evo, but for a 50 mile Sunday blast over Bodmin moor it'd be the P1 for me.
My P1 had the 330 mm Prodrive brakes so can't comment on the standard items - Suspect they weren't up to the job though.
If I'd have chosen the Evo I'd probably be raving about it now and wouldn't have been disappointed. Interesting that 5th gear clocked the Evo VI faster than the IX... This must make a low mileage Evo VI one of the bargains of the century?
robcollingridge said:
Smifffy said:
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one Rob as I don't agree with a single word you've said. You'll be pulling out the "anyone can drive this fast, where's the skill?" one next.
As you say everything is relative - You can from an Elise (900kgs?) into a GD chassis Impreza that weighs 1400kgs. Of course you're going to be diappointed!
What has AWD got to do with masking driver feedback? Not a great deal. It gives different messages to RWD - you just need to listen to them. Spend a little time with Don Palmer.
This all said I have driven a P1 and now a 22b as part of the fleet for the last 6-7 years or so. They're very much more hardcore than the standard Impreza so maybe this is where you're coming from. My original turbo 2000 wasn't a patch on either of these, but always left a grin on my face and I can't remember having any problem with feel or involvement. The problem with that car was I didn't keep the shiny side facing upwards. Ah.
Fair enough. If we ever meet up at the same trackday, we can swap cars for a few laps and then you'll see what you are missing out on (don't put it on its roof though because it hasn't got one!).As you say everything is relative - You can from an Elise (900kgs?) into a GD chassis Impreza that weighs 1400kgs. Of course you're going to be diappointed!
What has AWD got to do with masking driver feedback? Not a great deal. It gives different messages to RWD - you just need to listen to them. Spend a little time with Don Palmer.
This all said I have driven a P1 and now a 22b as part of the fleet for the last 6-7 years or so. They're very much more hardcore than the standard Impreza so maybe this is where you're coming from. My original turbo 2000 wasn't a patch on either of these, but always left a grin on my face and I can't remember having any problem with feel or involvement. The problem with that car was I didn't keep the shiny side facing upwards. Ah.
Rob
However, also have to disagree this time. The Exige is about to be replaced by an Impreza STi Spec.D which is perhaps a surprising decision as I know the Subaru is going to a vastly different ownership and driving prospect to 900 odd kilos and the level of feedback and engagement delivered by any Lotus. However, like so many the patter of tiny feet means that I can no longer justify my expensive toy - which in reality can only be used for a proportion of the year and ideally on the track. In replacing two vehicles in the household, a Lotus and a Volvo, I could find no other nearly new vehicle that offered a semblance of fun, fulfilled practical family duties, was fairly reliable, was able do the very occasional track day, and generated the same frisson of excitement through an element of motorsport heritage as the Impreza. An all-round vehicle is never going to be as pure, but the fact that is does so much, so well, is the the reason why I think it fully deserves its' everyday hero status.
Having now had my Bugeye WRX for 9 months, I can honestly say it's the best car I've ever owned. Never ceases to amaze me how capable it is.
And once you get the Prodrive headlight conversion done its (IMHO) pretty good to look at, but then I'm biased.
I just can't see myself ever wanting to get rid of it.
And once you get the Prodrive headlight conversion done its (IMHO) pretty good to look at, but then I'm biased.
I just can't see myself ever wanting to get rid of it.
jackal said:
VladD said:
jackal said:
but boring, subdued and very mainstream or "non-special" once you've driven an EVO6
Unless you've got a Type-R, P1 or 22B, in which case the tables are turned.still lazy and dullard in comparison imo
when it comes to feel, the interface of gearlever and steering wheel to hands, pedals to feet, bum to seat etc.. the evo is in a different league. Overall the feel is also far more meatier and solid giving it a very focused and special feeling. In comparison teh P1 just felt like an normal saloon with an indecently good engine strapped to it ... brakes were appaling.
"This is fun the way this car handles this is what fun is" "A truely fun car. This car lets the driver enjoy the ride" " "just a fast car gets boring after a few laps around a track, because the car behaves like this the joy of sitting behind the wheel is there for the driver. This is how a car should be made" "Cars should be like this there should be some work left for the driver to test his skills" "the brakes seem ok on this one too (the brakes on the evo TME were smoking after the same test) " "the brakes on the impreza feel more stable" all comments by a proffessional driver when testing evo against impreza , the comments were about the impreza. "the evo was developed under a concept where they strived to build a good 4wd and supported other factors with computers. I saw after the race that the impreza on the other hand was designed under a completly different concept. The impreza has achieved the same level as the evo by improving and further improving the raw essence of the car itself and not turning to computers. "with the great balance of this car im sure it would become invincible if computer assisted" that one came from a guy who races evos. its not the cars fault they feel poo you just gotta drive em properly.
Smifffy said:
I drove an Evo VI Makkinnen and the P1 back to back when I bought the P1. The outcome gives the game away I suppose, but I felt that the Evo was a forensic examination whereas the scoob felt more intuitive and natural. For a 3 mile special stage I'd choose the Evo, but for a 50 mile Sunday blast over Bodmin moor it'd be the P1 for me.
totally hear where you are coming from and thats a good way to describe it. I was coming from elises, 340r's, esprits and the like so i wanted a car to really enthrall me in a very focused concentrated way and whilst the impreza was a clear good mainstream performer with more of an organic friendly manner (ignoring teh terrible brakes and steering feel) it was the evo's special, scalpelesque, ultra solid feel that appealed to me more at the time.
RB Will said:
think this is a bit odd the P1 IS way different to any other saloon with a good engine, standard brakes were not great but then again brakes on evos have never been their high point. Dont forget the Evo is the one that is using all its electrics to keep it on the road.
on one level the evo's brakes were great... good stopping power alright and far stronger than say a stock P1. No, their problem was that they warped pretty easily.As for the Evo using electrics to keep it on the road I am not sure what you mean. The AYC only came into play occasionally and to be fair the enthusiasts amongst us either disconnected it, replaced it with something like a straight cusco open diff, or started out in with an RS2 or an RSX which had no 'electrics/AYC' in the first place. Apart from my friend who had a heavily suspension/geo fettled type RA, all the demo imprezas I drove also understeered terribly but then again for people coming from hot hatches that was probably a good thing at the time.
Gorvid said:
Can someone who knows stuff give a full run down of the Impreza models with some clarification on how good they are and what the offer that is different / price etc????
I like lists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ImprezaI like lists.
http://www.22b.com/imprezarange.htm
what is missing from those lists is the Prodrive versions. Any of the 'standard' cars can have a PPP (Prodrive performance Pack) fitted, which makes a huge difference and is Subaru approved and so does not affect warranty.
http://www.prodrive.com/products_level2.html?id=72...
for instance the 'classic' Impreza UK turbo has from the factory (from 1999-2000) 215 BHP and 214lbs/ft (290Nm) from 4000rpm.
The PPP changes this to 237 BHP and 260 lbs/ft (350Nm) from 3,500rpm, i.e. the package that was fitted to some of the RB5s.
http://www.prodrive.com/up/99MY%20Impreza%20PPP.pd...
In EVO 011, they tested the Evo VI, 22B and RB5 against a load of similar cars in real-world driving - the RB5 pipped the other 2, including being the most involving, even though the Evo VI has better front-end grip.
just my 0.02p worth
http://www.prodrive.com/products_level2.html?id=72...
for instance the 'classic' Impreza UK turbo has from the factory (from 1999-2000) 215 BHP and 214lbs/ft (290Nm) from 4000rpm.
The PPP changes this to 237 BHP and 260 lbs/ft (350Nm) from 3,500rpm, i.e. the package that was fitted to some of the RB5s.
http://www.prodrive.com/up/99MY%20Impreza%20PPP.pd...
In EVO 011, they tested the Evo VI, 22B and RB5 against a load of similar cars in real-world driving - the RB5 pipped the other 2, including being the most involving, even though the Evo VI has better front-end grip.
just my 0.02p worth
Edited by Orangecurry on Tuesday 4th December 11:40
The Evo vs Scooby is an interesting one! Each to there own i say! But if i were to have an Evo then it would only be an Evo6 TM. I've driven a couple of laters ones, but non compared to the 6 IMO!
I forgot to add in an earlier post - just HOW friendly is the fellow Scooby driver!!!! I've not passed another scooby driver in the last couple of weeks that hasn't waved or nodded!
And as to the bug eyes! I LOVE EM! Dark blue with gold rims and the bug eyes! fantastic.... i paid 8.5K for the scooby, and paid 35K for my boxster s a couple of years back! I so wish i'd got into a scooby back then....
I forgot to add in an earlier post - just HOW friendly is the fellow Scooby driver!!!! I've not passed another scooby driver in the last couple of weeks that hasn't waved or nodded!
And as to the bug eyes! I LOVE EM! Dark blue with gold rims and the bug eyes! fantastic.... i paid 8.5K for the scooby, and paid 35K for my boxster s a couple of years back! I so wish i'd got into a scooby back then....
Orangecurry said:
In EVO 011, they tested the Evo VI, 22B and RB5 against a load of similar cars in real-world driving - the RB5 pipped the other 2, including being the most involving, even though the Evo VI has better front-end grip.
just my 0.02p worth
Is the RB5 WR worth £3k over a similar std Impreza with PPP?just my 0.02p worth
The RB5s do appear to hold their value, but the only major difference seems to be the solid bulkhead!
And one really appeals to me!
I test drive an RB5 a few years ago. (Well, quite a few really). And whilst I remember a big thumbs up for Robertsbridge Subaru who let me and my wife out in the car on our own for an hour, and then me in the car on my own for a further 20 mins. How many other dealers would do that? Nice.
Anyway - my impression was one of completeness. Everything was in balance with power, handling, steering all feeling in proportion to each other. No one element dominated the experience.
I do wonder if I went back now that it might feel a little slow on outright speed having had a P1 and 22b, but I don't doubt it'll still engage and entertain in the same way. This never seemed to trouble the guys at Evo and when you're driving it's easy to see why - it feels even more like any of the other scooby models that it's trying to help you. It does need the upgraded WR brakes though.
Of course ideally I'd have one of each model!
And I do like the looks of the RB5. Pretty sensational really. What's stopping you man! 
Anyway - my impression was one of completeness. Everything was in balance with power, handling, steering all feeling in proportion to each other. No one element dominated the experience.
I do wonder if I went back now that it might feel a little slow on outright speed having had a P1 and 22b, but I don't doubt it'll still engage and entertain in the same way. This never seemed to trouble the guys at Evo and when you're driving it's easy to see why - it feels even more like any of the other scooby models that it's trying to help you. It does need the upgraded WR brakes though.
Of course ideally I'd have one of each model!
And I do like the looks of the RB5. Pretty sensational really. What's stopping you man! Volte said:
Orangecurry said:
In EVO 011, they tested the Evo VI, 22B and RB5 against a load of similar cars in real-world driving - the RB5 pipped the other 2, including being the most involving, even though the Evo VI has better front-end grip.
just my 0.02p worth
Is the RB5 WR worth £3k over a similar std Impreza with PPP?just my 0.02p worth
The RB5s do appear to hold their value, but the only major difference seems to be the solid bulkhead!
And one really appeals to me!
then it is well worth it...... but why not get an estate with PPP anyway and save yourself 3k?Edited by Orangecurry on Wednesday 5th December 09:13
Smifffy said:
I test drive an RB5 a few years ago. (Well, quite a few really). And whilst I remember a big thumbs up for Robertsbridge Subaru who let me and my wife out in the car on our own for an hour, and then me in the car on my own for a further 20 mins. How many other dealers would do that? Nice.
Do you mean Culverwells? That's who I use - fantastic dealers, old fashioned quality-service, with mechanics who know what they are doing.Yep - I told you it had been a few years!
When I visited they were welcoming and went out of their way to make it a good experience. I've used Gatwick Subaru for years now as they're my closest main dealer and David the service manager is the sort of person you'd always want to manage your car.
Funny how so many Subaru dealers seem to get it right and the premium brand dealers are a waste of time. I know that my experience with BMW was brief, but that's the way I'd describe their customer service too.
When I visited they were welcoming and went out of their way to make it a good experience. I've used Gatwick Subaru for years now as they're my closest main dealer and David the service manager is the sort of person you'd always want to manage your car.
Funny how so many Subaru dealers seem to get it right and the premium brand dealers are a waste of time. I know that my experience with BMW was brief, but that's the way I'd describe their customer service too.
Gatwick!!!! Oh dear.
When I compared costs between Gatwick and Culverwells, I spoke to both service managers to ensure I was comparing like-with-like.
I spoke to Culverwells first, and Gatwick second. I point-blank asked the Gatwick service manager why their prices were so much higher than Culverwells - the instant reply was (and I quote)
'ah yes they are cheaper because they work in a shed!'
Nuff said.
When I compared costs between Gatwick and Culverwells, I spoke to both service managers to ensure I was comparing like-with-like.
I spoke to Culverwells first, and Gatwick second. I point-blank asked the Gatwick service manager why their prices were so much higher than Culverwells - the instant reply was (and I quote)
'ah yes they are cheaper because they work in a shed!'
Nuff said.
hahaha - Maybe David did say that
To be honest I get absolutely first class service from Gatwick so I'm quite happy. I can see why you like Culverwells though, and it's a lovely drive over there.
I'm about to spend significant wedge on upgrading some crucial areas of the 22b and I trust David to do the homework and get it right. It also helps that he's done much of this work before on a 22b and he sourced this car for me too. Hopefully I'll have it done before Christmas, although the ceramic coated downpipes are taking a little while to come in from Roger Clark Motorsport and getting a date from Bob Rawle to balance it all up. Other than that the new turbo, Quaife diff, roll bars, links, fuel system gubbins are all good to go. Muah!
Just in time for the snow
To be honest I get absolutely first class service from Gatwick so I'm quite happy. I can see why you like Culverwells though, and it's a lovely drive over there.
I'm about to spend significant wedge on upgrading some crucial areas of the 22b and I trust David to do the homework and get it right. It also helps that he's done much of this work before on a 22b and he sourced this car for me too. Hopefully I'll have it done before Christmas, although the ceramic coated downpipes are taking a little while to come in from Roger Clark Motorsport and getting a date from Bob Rawle to balance it all up. Other than that the new turbo, Quaife diff, roll bars, links, fuel system gubbins are all good to go. Muah!
Just in time for the snow
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