RE: PH Heroes: Lotus Elise S2
Discussion
Going on the experiences of a friend of mine, I wouldn't use an S1 day to day. His is forever having little electrical gremlins, and his dash does a fair impersonation of a disco at night when it's sat on the drive. He says it's a simple fix, but it's been like that for months, so...... Oh, and his won't start if it's been raining. Something about the rain collecting on something atop the engine. This may just mean his car is a bit rubbish, or that there are very simple fixes that he's unaware of, but it's put me off getting an S1.
horsmai said:
Come April I will be buying an elise. However I've been dithering between an S1 at around £8000, a S1 111s at around £10000 and an early S2, for months now.
I want to be using the car as much as possible and do have a banger as backup, but would rather not be running 2 cars if possible. Can anyone help with regard to the real day to day differences for these 3? I know the s1's roof isn't great, but i would plan on a hard top to deal with the weather (are these any good?) I assume running costs/relibility are all about out equal? Is the noise/comfort hugely better in the S2? what else, might sway my descision for daily driving?
A brief test drive, just isn't enough to tell me what it'll be like using throughout the year and i haven't managed a test driver in a s1 111s,, but I hear they are very noisy.
Looks-wise ideally I prefer the s2 front end but the s1's rounded rump, so that doesn't help
Plenty of people do use S1s everyday, a friend of mine used his on a motorway commute to work each day! However, the S2 is far better suited to everyday use, not least because the roof is a billion times easier to use and you spend longer enjoying open top motoring because of it!I want to be using the car as much as possible and do have a banger as backup, but would rather not be running 2 cars if possible. Can anyone help with regard to the real day to day differences for these 3? I know the s1's roof isn't great, but i would plan on a hard top to deal with the weather (are these any good?) I assume running costs/relibility are all about out equal? Is the noise/comfort hugely better in the S2? what else, might sway my descision for daily driving?
A brief test drive, just isn't enough to tell me what it'll be like using throughout the year and i haven't managed a test driver in a s1 111s,, but I hear they are very noisy.
Looks-wise ideally I prefer the s2 front end but the s1's rounded rump, so that doesn't help
The hard top on the S1 is effective, but very noisy. S2 hard tops are much more effective and are actually quieter than the soft top. The S2 is also generally a much quieter car, especially in 111S or 111R Touring form with the extra sound deadening.
If it was me, for everyday use, I'd save up a bit more and get a nice S2 with a short roof (do bear in mind that the comments about the wonderful S2 roof only apply to the later short tail roofed S2s). I can get the roof on my 2004 spec S2 Elise up in about 20 seconds...
Snake the Sniper said:
Going on the experiences of a friend of mine, I wouldn't use an S1 day to day. His is forever having little electrical gremlins, and his dash does a fair impersonation of a disco at night when it's sat on the drive. He says it's a simple fix, but it's been like that for months, so...... Oh, and his won't start if it's been raining. Something about the rain collecting on something atop the engine. This may just mean his car is a bit rubbish, or that there are very simple fixes that he's unaware of, but it's put me off getting an S1.
The k series engine has its spark plugs set down in little holes cast into the head. These are covered by a 12 inch long cover held down by two screws. If that cover leaks then the spark plugs drown and the engine cuts out. It just needs sealing - quite easy to do. My k series S2 never suffered from this problem, whereas a friend's S1 was always cutting out in the wet. Not sure why that is?I had an S1 111s for a few years, prior to that though I had a motorbike, so I was deeply impressed by two seats, ANY kind of weather protection and a small boot. So standard worries about practicality didn't really mean anything to me.
Took my dad down to lemons in it, with the tent and everything else in the car (bit of a squeeze) but I have some very happy memories of reaching V max (141 ish) on the trip.
I tracked mine several times, did some car control courses in it, and thoroughly enjoyed the whole thing, it never broke, leaked or had any problems beyond a flat battery.
I tried an S2 when they came out, but knowing Lotus I wanted to wait until all the gremlins had been fixed and a few variants were around, I liked the S2, the ride and suspension were much much more refined than the S1, but I suspect thats because my version of the s1 needed some attention.
As any owner will tell you, small things on all these cars make a BIG difference, tyre pressure, brand of tyre, suspension geomentary, tracking, balancing, corner weights, everything. A well sorted one feels brilliant a bad one like an absolute dog (and sounds like pot black over rough surfaces.....)
God I miss that car ......
RobM77 said:
Snake the Sniper said:
Going on the experiences of a friend of mine, I wouldn't use an S1 day to day. His is forever having little electrical gremlins, and his dash does a fair impersonation of a disco at night when it's sat on the drive. He says it's a simple fix, but it's been like that for months, so...... Oh, and his won't start if it's been raining. Something about the rain collecting on something atop the engine. This may just mean his car is a bit rubbish, or that there are very simple fixes that he's unaware of, but it's put me off getting an S1.
The k series engine has its spark plugs set down in little holes cast into the head. These are covered by a 12 inch long cover held down by two screws. If that cover leaks then the spark plugs drown and the engine cuts out. It just needs sealing - quite easy to do. My k series S2 never suffered from this problem, whereas a friend's S1 was always cutting out in the wet. Not sure why that is?I WISH said:
"The second car was the first Lotus to be created on a computer, with a design brief to produce a shape that was both modern and timeless."
NO NO NO NO NO ......... THE S2 looks like it was created by a computer and it will look incredibly dated in about ten years time. I have grown to like it though (even with all those 'Max Power' black grilles .. ugh!).
bNO NO NO NO NO ......... THE S2 looks like it was created by a computer and it will look incredibly dated in about ten years time. I have grown to like it though (even with all those 'Max Power' black grilles .. ugh!).
ks - it's 8 years old already and still turns heads - more so than the TT.Bing o said:
I WISH said:
"The second car was the first Lotus to be created on a computer, with a design brief to produce a shape that was both modern and timeless."
NO NO NO NO NO ......... THE S2 looks like it was created by a computer and it will look incredibly dated in about ten years time. I have grown to like it though (even with all those 'Max Power' black grilles .. ugh!).
bNO NO NO NO NO ......... THE S2 looks like it was created by a computer and it will look incredibly dated in about ten years time. I have grown to like it though (even with all those 'Max Power' black grilles .. ugh!).
ks - it's 8 years old already and still turns heads - more so than the TT.And as for the Toyota fan who posted, I wouldn't have anything but a K series in mine. Anybody - even Americans - can make a car go fast by sticking a bigger / faster engine in it but that isn't what lotus should be about. What's the weight of a 111R these days, 950kg?
Insight said:
R.P.M said:
Only a 9 out of 10?
Must be a typo.
RPM
what the hell is ever going to get 10/10???Must be a typo.
RPM
Just look back to the old Austin-Healeys. Think of a Sprite... which model do you imagine... a version 1 'Frogeye' probably. Yeh, subsequent models were more refined... but does that matter? The S1 Elise WILL be (IS!) a classic that has earnt its place in the history books and will always be endearing.
Everytime I look at mine I look at the shape and to me, the S1 is sculpted. The S2 was carved.
As for leaky roofs... You need to remember that the design for the Elise was an 'open top' roadster, the hood was almost an afterthought...
FlossUK said:
kambites said:
To my mind the S1 is too hardcore for a daily driver and too soft for a weekend toy - if I wanted a weekend toy/track car I'd look at Sevens and Atoms, not Lotuses.
The S2 is a good compromise between usability as a daily drive and fun at the weekends.
My A@s£ I use my S1 as a daily driver The S2 is a good compromise between usability as a daily drive and fun at the weekends.
horsmai said:
Come April I will be buying an elise. However I've been dithering between an S1 at around £8000, a S1 111s at around £10000 and an early S2, for months now.
I want to be using the car as much as possible and do have a banger as backup, but would rather not be running 2 cars if possible. Can anyone help with regard to the real day to day differences for these 3? I know the s1's roof isn't great, but i would plan on a hard top to deal with the weather (are these any good?) I assume running costs/relibility are all about out equal? Is the noise/comfort hugely better in the S2? what else, might sway my descision for daily driving?
A brief test drive, just isn't enough to tell me what it'll be like using throughout the year and i haven't managed a test driver in a s1 111s,, but I hear they are very noisy.
Looks-wise ideally I prefer the s2 front end but the s1's rounded rump, so that doesn't help
Early S2s have the same roof as the S1, the switch to the "short tail" top was somewhere around 2003, I think? There's no reason the S1's roof should be a problem to be honest, if you have the windows adjusted correctly it only leaks a bit in very heavy rain and you can always use a shower cap (sort of mini car cover that just covers the glasshouse) when you're parked. The roofs leak around the edge rather than through the fabric, so I'm not sure a hardtop will be any better (although I've never actually used an S1 hardtop).I want to be using the car as much as possible and do have a banger as backup, but would rather not be running 2 cars if possible. Can anyone help with regard to the real day to day differences for these 3? I know the s1's roof isn't great, but i would plan on a hard top to deal with the weather (are these any good?) I assume running costs/relibility are all about out equal? Is the noise/comfort hugely better in the S2? what else, might sway my descision for daily driving?
A brief test drive, just isn't enough to tell me what it'll be like using throughout the year and i haven't managed a test driver in a s1 111s,, but I hear they are very noisy.
Looks-wise ideally I prefer the s2 front end but the s1's rounded rump, so that doesn't help
Reliability wise, a lot of it comes down to luck but I get the feeling that build quality rose during the production run of each model type so a late S1 will probably be better put together than an early S2. The S1 can be fitted with S2 suspension components to make it ride and handle broadly the same as an S2.
The only real difference in noise level between an early S2 and a late S1 is from the suspension, so the suspension upgrade would bring the S1 pretty much in line with the S2.
You should also go and drive a VX220. Unless you're looking at enough money to buy an S2 111S (about 15000 pounds), I think the Vauxhall is the best car for daily use. I came very close to picking a VX220t over my 111S.
Edited by kambites on Monday 25th February 08:44
Helpful comments all, Thanks!
I've seen quite a few S1s with S2 suspension so that's useful to know. Don't think I can stretch to £15000 for a 2003+ S2 (although I'd love to) and seeing as there's less difference from early S2 to an S1, I'm tempted to save some money and have extra spare for sorting.
Did think long and hard about the VX, but just feel it wouldn't quite satisfy one thing. I feel the need to own a lotus and I'd be left wondering. Maybe a little badge snobbery
So unless come April, I have managed to save more than I thought I think it'll be an S1. Can the early S2s be easily converted to the short tail roof, so the better (and quieter) hard top fits?
I've seen quite a few S1s with S2 suspension so that's useful to know. Don't think I can stretch to £15000 for a 2003+ S2 (although I'd love to) and seeing as there's less difference from early S2 to an S1, I'm tempted to save some money and have extra spare for sorting.
Did think long and hard about the VX, but just feel it wouldn't quite satisfy one thing. I feel the need to own a lotus and I'd be left wondering. Maybe a little badge snobbery
So unless come April, I have managed to save more than I thought I think it'll be an S1. Can the early S2s be easily converted to the short tail roof, so the better (and quieter) hard top fits?
Put it this way. The VX220 was built by Lotus, on the same production line as the Elise, using many of the same components and (unlike the Elise) an engine which Lotus helped develop... it IS a Lotus in all but name. By the way, the VX220 has the short-tail roof from the start.
If you decide to go that way, you can get a short tailed S2 for less than 15k.
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/304579.htm
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/382434.htm
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/342857.htm
In my experience, the difference in waterproofing isn't actually down to the different roof, but to a slight modification to the seals on the windscreen pillars. The short-tail cars have their seals extended into a sort of funnel shape that catches any water which drips down from the front corner of the roof. I would imagine that that part would be retro-fittable but I don't know.
If you decide to go that way, you can get a short tailed S2 for less than 15k.
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/304579.htm
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/382434.htm
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/342857.htm
In my experience, the difference in waterproofing isn't actually down to the different roof, but to a slight modification to the seals on the windscreen pillars. The short-tail cars have their seals extended into a sort of funnel shape that catches any water which drips down from the front corner of the roof. I would imagine that that part would be retro-fittable but I don't know.
Edited by kambites on Monday 25th February 09:28
The advantage of the short tail roof is simply the time it takes to put it on. I can get mine up in about 30 seconds from a seated position in the car (yes, I have been timed!). You just sling two struts in, then clip the roof one side, unroll it like a scroll and clip in the other. It's almost as easy as something like an MX5 roof.
The S1 roof, in contrast, is quite a fiddly affair. You have to fit two side posts in, fit the struts to these, get the roof unfolded, feed in an overlapping lip at the front, stretch the roof back, tension at the rear with an allen key, then clip to the side posts with poppers! Sorry if that's innacurate, but it's from memory of doing it umpteen times in my mate's S1 years ago
The difference is that when it rains I stop and put the roof up, then when it stops raining I pull over and take it down again. In an S1 you're more likely to decide you can't be arsed and just continue with the roof up. Ergo, I get far more roof down time than I would do if I was in an S1.
No doubt both can be adjusted to be leak proof, but just for the record my soft top doesn't leak at all. I've driven the car in monsoon conditions and the interior has stayed bone dry. Talking of bones, if you're skinny like me the standard S1 seats are a right pain in the arse (literally). It's easy to put S2 seats in though I think?
The S1 roof, in contrast, is quite a fiddly affair. You have to fit two side posts in, fit the struts to these, get the roof unfolded, feed in an overlapping lip at the front, stretch the roof back, tension at the rear with an allen key, then clip to the side posts with poppers! Sorry if that's innacurate, but it's from memory of doing it umpteen times in my mate's S1 years ago
The difference is that when it rains I stop and put the roof up, then when it stops raining I pull over and take it down again. In an S1 you're more likely to decide you can't be arsed and just continue with the roof up. Ergo, I get far more roof down time than I would do if I was in an S1.
No doubt both can be adjusted to be leak proof, but just for the record my soft top doesn't leak at all. I've driven the car in monsoon conditions and the interior has stayed bone dry. Talking of bones, if you're skinny like me the standard S1 seats are a right pain in the arse (literally). It's easy to put S2 seats in though I think?
I think the point people are missing is that the VX220 Turbo has considerably more grunt than any elise derative, and thats before the very simple job of a Stage 2 remap. For around £1,500 my car now has 250 Bhp and 250 ft/lb of torque at 2,700 revs. Quite ballistic. I recently drove the Exige superharged at Silverstone and it was just slow and hard work unless you were really buzzing the engine.
You really have to try one before rubbishing it for it's badge!
You really have to try one before rubbishing it for it's badge!
jl34 said:
I think the point people are missing is that the VX220 Turbo has considerably more grunt than any elise derative, and thats before the very simple job of a Stage 2 remap. For around £1,500 my car now has 250 Bhp and 250 ft/lb of torque at 2,700 revs. Quite ballistic. I recently drove the Exige superharged at Silverstone and it was just slow and hard work unless you were really buzzing the engine.
You really have to try one before rubbishing it for it's badge!
You really have to try one before rubbishing it for it's badge!
Very true, but we must remember that most people in this sector don't buy for power, they buy for handling and light weight.jl34 said:
I think the point people are missing is that the VX220 Turbo has considerably more grunt than any elise derative, and thats before the very simple job of a Stage 2 remap. For around £1,500 my car now has 250 Bhp and 250 ft/lb of torque at 2,700 revs. Quite ballistic. I recently drove the Exige superharged at Silverstone and it was just slow and hard work unless you were really buzzing the engine.
You really have to try one before rubbishing it for it's badge!
Don't get me worng, I'm not rubbishing the badge/car, I think the VX is great, I just always wanted a Lotus as a kid, and I think if I did buy a VX, I'd still have to quench that desire by getting a lotus sometime later, so it would leave me with that little nagging thought. Also the Turbo is out of my price range I think so I'd only be looking at the NAs, but you've persuaded me to take one for a test!You really have to try one before rubbishing it for it's badge!
"The driving position is spot-on"
No it's not. The pedals, steering wheel & seat are not in line. The steering wheel is too low. The standard seats offer no side support & you can fall out of them just going round a roundabout at speed. They're useless on track & they wobble too - even when they're brand new.
They did get one thing right - the steering wheel is almost vertical. So many sports cars are let down by having the wheel at an angle, so the top is out of reach & the bottom is too close.
No it's not. The pedals, steering wheel & seat are not in line. The steering wheel is too low. The standard seats offer no side support & you can fall out of them just going round a roundabout at speed. They're useless on track & they wobble too - even when they're brand new.
They did get one thing right - the steering wheel is almost vertical. So many sports cars are let down by having the wheel at an angle, so the top is out of reach & the bottom is too close.
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