RE: Tygan Speedster

[Miguel]

odyssey2200 said:

Miguel said:

I'm sick of websites that try to look impressive but are more trouble than they're worth to navigate, such as the PGO website, though I'm very impressed with their product.

Miguel

Miguel

Which web site did you visit?
The french one is Pants but the UK one, which I bought from is basic and functional.

http://lifestyleautomotive.co.uk/pgohome.html

Yes, I did go to the French site. Thanks for the tip, and since I live in the US, now I know what pants means. This one looks much better. The car looks like a work of art. Having a modern, water-cooled engine in the middle is a bonus. I like that it looks like a Speedster but also doesn't.

Miguel

[Miguel]

Davi said:

Miguel said:

I shun the Ferrari because it's an existing car that was rebodied to look like a Ferrari. To me, it's as absurd as the Bugatti, MG, and Mercedes SS "replicas" that I used to see here in the US that were just a VW chassis with the body removed and replaced with a fiberglass lookalike of such old sports cars.

I have no problem with cars such as the Chesil and now the Tygan. Yes, using old VW parts does make it more like the original. I have no problem with the car itself, but to me, cars are about driving. Having driven an old VW Beetle and a Porsche 356B coupe, I discovered that those cars are simply not my cup of tea. Thus, I'm not shunning the Tygan, but something with more modern mechanicals is my preference.

Rebodying an existing car to look like a Ferrari is silly, IMHO. Trying to make it look like a modern Ferrari or any other car is equally futile. How about taking ten year old VW Passat and rebodying it to look like a Maybach? Or changing the body on a London taxi to try to copy the RR Phantom?

I drive a Mazda MX5 and love it. I've driven an Aston Martin DB9 and thought it was a fantastic car. Someone actually sells a body kit to turn the MX5 into a tiny Aston Martin "replica." You can bet I won't be buying it.

Miguel

So like Odyssey you are saying that replica's that you like are fine, it's just the ones that you don't like that are sad. That's fine, just thought maybe someone had a new, maybe even half reasonable argument, rather than the standard issue one it turned out to be...

Davi,

It seems to me that you like to misquote posters in order to start arguments. I made my point, used examples, and explained my position in detail. You ignored most of what I said, picked and chose another point, and completely twisted my words in order to start an argument. If you purposely did that, stop it. If you did not, then actually go back and read my post this time.

I wouldn't particularly want a Tygan or other VW based Speedster replica, but I can appreciate it even though I don't necessarily like it. Clearly, this is very different from what you just accused me of, yet you say that I'm the one whose argument isn't half-reasonable, but is, instead, standard issue.

I do have less than zero interest in cars that are simply rebodied. If you like them, great. Buy one. If you want an intelligent discussion, though we may disagree, I'm game. If you just want an argument, I'm not interested. Suddenly, I feel like I'm in the middle of an old Monty Python sketch.

Miguel

[nervous]

odyssey2200 said:

So what exactly is your link to Tygan, Nervous?

none. I just think your argument is stupid.

french version chooser said:

you obviously go out of your way to ignore bits of thread and only read the bits you want to.

only in the same way you chose to ignore all of the parts of your car that are shaped like the ones on a 356, and only look at your non-Porsche badges.

odd headlights hissy stereo said:

I simply have the opinion that people why drive cars and change the badges to pretend its something else are disingenuous.

forgive me, Im going to try one more time. Im nothing if not not a quitter. Isnt your car shaped like one that already exists? doesnt that mean its pretending to be something else? If I wore all the same clothes are you, had my hair cut like yours and had extensive plastic surgery to make my face look like yours, I would clearly be trying to be something I was not, irespective of whether I wrote your name in the neck-label of my clothes or not.

[Miguel]

nervous said:

Davi said:

just thought maybe someone had a new, maybe even half reasonable argument, rather than the standard issue one it turned out to be...

This is Ph, Davi. We dont do new.

Hi nervous,

The problem is that I gave my opinion. I never said that it was gospel or absolute truth, just my opinion, but I wrote my position and supported with a few examples. Davi did not reply to any of them. He did reply, however, to something that I did not say. He misquoted me so he could criticize me, as you showed above. So, you're right, nervous. This is typical of PH.

Miguel

[Davi]

Miguel said:

Davi,

It seems to me that you like to misquote posters in order to start arguments. I made my point, used examples, and explained my position in detail. You ignored most of what I said, picked and chose another point, and completely twisted my words in order to start an argument. If you purposely did that, stop it. If you did not, then actually go back and read my post this time.

I wouldn't particularly want a Tygan or other VW based Speedster replica, but I can appreciate it even though I don't necessarily like it. Clearly, this is very different from what you just accused me of, yet you say that I'm the one whose argument isn't half-reasonable, but is, instead, standard issue.

I do have less than zero interest in cars that are simply rebodied. If you like them, great. Buy one. If you want an intelligent discussion, though we may disagree, I'm game. If you just want an argument, I'm not interested. Suddenly, I feel like I'm in the middle of an old Monty Python sketch.

Miguel

I Don't believe I've misquoted anyone at all, I was simply trying to summarise the position as I see it. My apologies though as re-reading your posts in the Fake Ferrari thread it would appear I was a little harsh on you - I was just slightly confused as to why a semi-replica body placed on modern running running gear in the Ferrari thread was greeted with disdain, but on this thread you wanted a semi-replica body but with modern running gear - if that makes sense.

Personally I agree that a Ferrari bodykit on an MR2 doesn't look that good - though there are some excellent examples of reproduction Ferrari's out there based on various running gear. Some even manage to get them to break down almost as regularly as the real thing

What gets right on my wick is the typical double standards we see here on PH as I've stated - people that want to label replica owners and builders as sad losers and attempt to apply their own insecurities onto the would-be owner, assuming it's because they can't afford the original. They apply that theory, however, only to vehicles that aren't in their list of ones to own or meet their specific criteria, when it suddenly isn't sad at all!

[Mahatma Bag]

This car is the automotive equivalent of the fake Rolex.

[zaktoo]

Mahatma Bag said:

This car is the automotive equivalent of the fake Rolex.

Or indeed the chest wig.

[Mon Ami Mate]

Mahatma Bag said:

This car is the automotive equivalent of the fake Rolex.

The original 356 is a genuine automotive icon. It is a classic, instantly recognisable design that appeals to very many people all over the world.

This car is more powerful than the original, lighter than the original, more comfortable than the original, more usable than the original, won't rust, is handbuilt, can be bought new with a full warranty and is deliverable in the colour and specification of your choice. It may not appeal to everybody, but there is a strong demand for it that we are catering for, with our own cash, ambition and passion and we are trying very hard to make it as good as we possibly can. Surely this is worthy of some basic respect?

[nomis]

Mon Ami Mate said:

nomis said:

Mon Ami Mate said:

the only part kept from a donor car is the spine, which is shortened and made corrosion resistant. The only reason we use these is that it enables us to use an age-related plate. Absolutely everything else is brand new and purpose-engineered.

Actually, if you only use one part and it is modified, it seems you cannot use an age related plate according to the DVLA: -

"Kit Conversions

This is where a kit of new parts is added to an existing vehicle or old parts are added to a kit comprising a manufactured body, chassis or monocoque bodyshell. The general appearance of the vehicle will change and result in a revised description on the registration certificate.

A vehicle will retain its donor registration mark if either the original unmodified chassis or unaltered monocoque bodyshell and two other major components are used. If a new monocoque bodyshell or chassis from a specialist kit manufacturer is used (or an altered chassis or bodyshell from an existing vehicle) together with two major components from a donor vehicle, an age related mark will be assigned. The mark will be based on the age of the donor vehicle. An ESVA, SVA or MSVA test will be required to register the vehicle.

Where there are insufficient parts from a donor vehicle or in cases where the original registration mark is unknown, an ESVA, SVA or MSVA certificate will be required to register the vehicle and a 'Q' prefix registration number will be allocated."

In the case of Kit Cars - they are only allowed to use a current reg: -

"Kit Cars

Where all the parts of a vehicle are supplied new by the manufacturer. Subject to the provision of satisfactory receipts and a certificate of newness these vehicles will be registered under a current registration mark.

Kit cars which have been built using not more than one reconditioned component will also be registered under a current mark. This is subject to the provision of satisfactory evidence that the component has been reconditioned to an "as new" standard. An ESVA, SVA or MSVA test will be required."

All take from the DVLA site - http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/BuyingAndSell...

So it would seem Chesil were correct and you are unable to use a classic plate?

We don't make kit cars - I believe this is where the loophole exists. All I know is that our cars go out on age related plates and that the only part we use from a donor car is the spine with the chassis number intact.

As a matter of interest, what do you classify the Tygan as if it isn't a kit car or a 'kit conversion'?

[Mon Ami Mate]

nomis said:

As a matter of interest, what do you classify the Tygan as if it isn't a kit car or a 'kit conversion'?

Haven't really thought about classifying it as such. I guess it's most accurate just to refer to it as a replica.

[Mahatma Bag]

Mon Ami Mate said:

Mahatma Bag said:

This car is the automotive equivalent of the fake Rolex.

The original 356 is a genuine automotive icon. It is a classic, instantly recognisable design that appeals to very many people all over the world.

This car is more powerful than the original, lighter than the original, more comfortable than the original, more usable than the original, won't rust, is handbuilt, can be bought new with a full warranty and is deliverable in the colour and specification of your choice. It may not appeal to everybody, but there is a strong demand for it that we are catering for, with our own cash, ambition and passion and we are trying very hard to make it as good as we possibly can. Surely this is worthy of some basic respect?

Just to develop my point a little: Some good quality fake Rolexes are better than the original, in that they are more accurate (quartz innards), cheaper and you don't mind if you lose it so much, they are made by (I imagine) old Asian gentlemen who have sunk their own cash into the fake Rolex venture and are quite passionate about it.

The big downside is that they are pretending to be something they are not, and the BIGGEST downside to the 356 replica for me is that people will always KNOW it is a fake and the question most drivers will get asked most often is 'Is it real?' Grinning and saying 'Of course not!' is the only response if it has fake Porsche badges but this must be grating after a while, especially if you have sunk a load of money into it. Your punter could, when asked the same question, say 'of course it's real' if it carried YOUR badges so allowing fake Porsche ones is a mistake IMHO.


All the above would be irrelevent if the 356 replica were priced stupidly cheap (a LOT of fake Rolexes are sold after all), but as I understand it it is priced at a level that would buy a pretty decent secondhand 911. Anyway, hope it works out.

Cheers.

[Davi]

Mahatma Bag said:

Mon Ami Mate said:

Mahatma Bag said:

This car is the automotive equivalent of the fake Rolex.

The original 356 is a genuine automotive icon. It is a classic, instantly recognisable design that appeals to very many people all over the world.

This car is more powerful than the original, lighter than the original, more comfortable than the original, more usable than the original, won't rust, is handbuilt, can be bought new with a full warranty and is deliverable in the colour and specification of your choice. It may not appeal to everybody, but there is a strong demand for it that we are catering for, with our own cash, ambition and passion and we are trying very hard to make it as good as we possibly can. Surely this is worthy of some basic respect?

Just to develop my point a little: Some good quality fake Rolexes are better than the original, in that they are more accurate (quartz innards), cheaper and you don't mind if you lose it so much, they are made by (I imagine) old Asian gentlemen who have sunk their own cash into the fake Rolex venture and are quite passionate about it.

The big downside is that they are pretending to be something they are not, and the BIGGEST downside to the 356 replica for me is that people will always KNOW it is a fake and the question most drivers will get asked most often is 'Is it real?' Grinning and saying 'Of course not!' is the only response if it has fake Porsche badges but this must be grating after a while, especially if you have sunk a load of money into it. Your punter could, when asked the same question, say 'of course it's real' if it carried YOUR badges so allowing fake Porsche ones is a mistake IMHO.


All the above would be irrelevent if the 356 replica were priced stupidly cheap (a LOT of fake Rolexes are sold after all), but as I understand it it is priced at a level that would buy a pretty decent secondhand 911. Anyway, hope it works out.

Cheers.

ermmm... just out of interest, what has a 911 got to do with it? You might as well point out you could get 8 924's, or 35 maestro's - if you like the 356 the price of a 911 is somewhat irrelevant!

Edited by Davi on Friday 7th March 16:24

[Mon Ami Mate]

Davi said:

Mahatma Bag said:

Mon Ami Mate said:

Mahatma Bag said:

This car is the automotive equivalent of the fake Rolex.

The original 356 is a genuine automotive icon. It is a classic, instantly recognisable design that appeals to very many people all over the world.

This car is more powerful than the original, lighter than the original, more comfortable than the original, more usable than the original, won't rust, is handbuilt, can be bought new with a full warranty and is deliverable in the colour and specification of your choice. It may not appeal to everybody, but there is a strong demand for it that we are catering for, with our own cash, ambition and passion and we are trying very hard to make it as good as we possibly can. Surely this is worthy of some basic respect?

Just to develop my point a little: Some good quality fake Rolexes are better than the original, in that they are more accurate (quartz innards), cheaper and you don't mind if you lose it so much, they are made by (I imagine) old Asian gentlemen who have sunk their own cash into the fake Rolex venture and are quite passionate about it.

The big downside is that they are pretending to be something they are not, and the BIGGEST downside to the 356 replica for me is that people will always KNOW it is a fake and the question most drivers will get asked most often is 'Is it real?' Grinning and saying 'Of course not!' is the only response if it has fake Porsche badges but this must be grating after a while, especially if you have sunk a load of money into it. Your punter could, when asked the same question, say 'of course it's real' if it carried YOUR badges so allowing fake Porsche ones is a mistake IMHO.


All the above would be irrelevent if the 356 replica were priced stupidly cheap (a LOT of fake Rolexes are sold after all), but as I understand it it is priced at a level that would buy a pretty decent secondhand 911. Anyway, hope it works out.

Cheers.

ermmm... just out of interest, whyat has a 9111 got to do with it? You might as well point out you could get 8 924's, or 35 maestro's - if you like the 356 the price of a 911 is somewhat irrelevant!

I should also point out that a nicely specced 2.0l twin carb Tygan will leave you change from £30k, not some of the figures htat have been bandied around here by various people with an axe to grind...

[nomis]

Mon Ami Mate said:

nomis said:

As a matter of interest, what do you classify the Tygan as if it isn't a kit car or a 'kit conversion'?

Haven't really thought about classifying it as such. I guess it's most accurate just to refer to it as a replica.

I appreciate that you may not have thought about classifying the Tygan as a Kit Car or Kit Conversion; however, going back to the question I asked (which was prompted by Chesil), if you want to classify the car as able to wear classic (black) reg plates, you will need to justify it legally.

I imagine a great deal of people who buy a Tygan Speedster will want to use classic plates on the car to complete the 'replica' Porsche image? Therefore, if I had involvement in a company where: "We've invested about £500,000 in the company" (Mon Ami Mate), I'd be pretty interested to know if legally my product could adhere (legally) to a very important USP.

[nomis]

Mon Ami Mate said:

It may not appeal to everybody, but there is a strong demand for it that we are catering for, with our own cash, ambition and passion and we are trying very hard to make it as good as we possibly can. Surely this is worthy of some basic respect?

Anyone who contributes to this forum (or any other) should have the right to discuss topics without being subjected to personal attacks; however, I do think there is a risk to posting on forums when your motives are commercially motivated. Surely, your view is biased from the outset?

Mon Ami Mate, why should someone afford your business "some basic respect" when they have nothing to gain from your product? You aren't running a charity, you are operating a commercial entity for profit (unless I'm mistaken on your motivations? Are you not expecting a return on investment?); therefore, while you have every right to post on the forum, I don't understand why you owning a business should mean your view point deserves any more or any less "respect" than any other. In fact, your bias due to your commercial involvement does more to hamper your opinion than aid it imho.

I wish you the same luck I wish anyone who put their money behind a business venture - it takes guts to get off the sofa of life and put your money where you mouth is - but I don't think you're doing this project any favours by opening up debate on the merits of it on an open forum (esp not one like PH where topics often end in a saw-dust-pub-like-brawl!)

[Mahatma Bag]

Davi said:

Mahatma Bag said:

Mon Ami Mate said:

Mahatma Bag said:

This car is the automotive equivalent of the fake Rolex.

The original 356 is a genuine automotive icon. It is a classic, instantly recognisable design that appeals to very many people all over the world.

This car is more powerful than the original, lighter than the original, more comfortable than the original, more usable than the original, won't rust, is handbuilt, can be bought new with a full warranty and is deliverable in the colour and specification of your choice. It may not appeal to everybody, but there is a strong demand for it that we are catering for, with our own cash, ambition and passion and we are trying very hard to make it as good as we possibly can. Surely this is worthy of some basic respect?

Just to develop my point a little: Some good quality fake Rolexes are better than the original, in that they are more accurate (quartz innards), cheaper and you don't mind if you lose it so much, they are made by (I imagine) old Asian gentlemen who have sunk their own cash into the fake Rolex venture and are quite passionate about it.

The big downside is that they are pretending to be something they are not, and the BIGGEST downside to the 356 replica for me is that people will always KNOW it is a fake and the question most drivers will get asked most often is 'Is it real?' Grinning and saying 'Of course not!' is the only response if it has fake Porsche badges but this must be grating after a while, especially if you have sunk a load of money into it. Your punter could, when asked the same question, say 'of course it's real' if it carried YOUR badges so allowing fake Porsche ones is a mistake IMHO.


All the above would be irrelevent if the 356 replica were priced stupidly cheap (a LOT of fake Rolexes are sold after all), but as I understand it it is priced at a level that would buy a pretty decent secondhand 911. Anyway, hope it works out.

Cheers.

ermmm... just out of interest, what has a 911 got to do with it? You might as well point out you could get 8 924's, or 35 maestro's - if you like the 356 the price of a 911 is somewhat irrelevant!

Edited by Davi on Friday 7th March 16:24

oh dear, please tell me you are joking? It helps to know what you are competing against.

[Mon Ami Mate]

nomis said:

Mon Ami Mate said:

It may not appeal to everybody, but there is a strong demand for it that we are catering for, with our own cash, ambition and passion and we are trying very hard to make it as good as we possibly can. Surely this is worthy of some basic respect?

Anyone who contributes to this forum (or any other) should have the right to discuss topics without being subjected to personal attacks; however, I do think there is a risk to posting on forums when your motives are commercially motivated. Surely, your view is biased from the outset?

Mon Ami Mate, why should someone afford your business "some basic respect" when they have nothing to gain from your product? You aren't running a charity, you are operating a commercial entity for profit (unless I'm mistaken on your motivations? Are you not expecting a return on investment?); therefore, while you have every right to post on the forum, I don't understand why you owning a business should mean your view point deserves any more or any less "respect" than any other. In fact, your bias due to your commercial involvement does more to hamper your opinion than aid it imho.

I wish you the same luck I wish anyone who put their money behind a business venture - it takes guts to get off the sofa of life and put your money where you mouth is - but I don't think you're doing this project any favours by opening up debate on the merits of it on an open forum (esp not one like PH where topics often end in a saw-dust-pub-like-brawl!)

Hang on, this is Pistonheads. People here are almost certainly, by definition, sports car enthusiasts. I accept that not everybody will like the cars we make, but I would expect that most people here would feel some sort of natural empathy with a small business that makes sports cars, even if they wouldn't ever choose to buy one. I've been a member here for a lot longer than I've been involved in Tygan, because I love cars and motorcycles. I don't own Tygan - I have a very small share in it. I come to the business having been involved in journalism and PR for many years and I have several other motor industry related clients. I don't see the company or the cars as beyond reproach, and I absolutely welcome constructive criticism because we are focused on improving the business as much as we can. Am I biased? Of course I am! It's not easy to emotionally switch off though when people write unobjective, unsubstantiated negative criticism about something which is so close to the heart.

[Mahatma Bag]

To be honest I don't think any PH negativity is anything to do with the car, it is probably more to do with a perceived conflict of interest between a site carrying an article promoting a product in which a site moderator (and you know how poular they are at the moment) has an interest and where there is prior history of said moderator closing a thread that criticised the car.

Nobody has a pop at replica Cobras, for example.

Harsh, but welcome to the jungle.

Cheers.

[Mon Ami Mate]

Mahatma Bag said:

To be honest I don't think any PH negativity is anything to do with the car, it is probably more to do with a perceived conflict of interest between a site carrying an article promoting a product in which a site moderator (and you know how poular they are at the moment) has an interest and where there is prior history of said moderator closing a thread that criticised the car.

Nobody has a pop at replica Cobras, for example.

Harsh, but welcome to the jungle.

Cheers.

I'm not a moderator and I didn't previously close a thread that criticised the car. I have been a member of Pistonheads for six and a half-odd years and I do have a small stake in Tygan. I have no influence over the editorial content of Pistonheads, I am not employed by Haymarket in any capacity, I don't understand why you don't want to talk about cars rather than attempting to stir up trouble.

[Davi]

Mahatma Bag said:

All the above would be irrelevent if the 356 replica were priced stupidly cheap (a LOT of fake Rolexes are sold after all), but as I understand it it is priced at a level that would buy a pretty decent secondhand 911. Anyway, hope it works out.

oh dear, please tell me you are joking? It helps to know what you are competing against.

Not in the slightest. Of course you have to compare to the competition, but there is a point at which comparisons become useless - in particularly a new vehicle versus a second hand vehicle, where one is classically styled, one is modern etc etc. I don't see a correlation other than the Porsche badge.