MX5 vs Elise - Debate
Discussion
Sam_68 said:
heebeegeetee said:
The adjustments on the Elise, i assume you're talking about front and back?
Yes. Apart from caster, obviously.And yes, you can feel the difference even within the narrow range of the factory settings (particularly for toe settings). But to refer to the Elise and MX5 as 'adjustable cars' is somewhat misleading. I standard form, they're no more adjustable than the majority of mass production cars.
Tyre pressure.
jackal said:
Sam_68 said:
but enough to form reasonable judgements and infinitely more experience than you've had with the Elise, by your own admission.
where reasonable judgement = coming from someone who reckons a westfield has as much steering feel as a caterham 
IN SUMMARY: 'IGNORE USER'
heebeegeetee said:
…but i *know* (not "think", *know*) that an MX5 can be changed from being a very mundane and ordinary drive to something that is full of feel and zap. I know this because i have experienced it.
So can any car, if you know what you’re doing. Lotus famously did it with a Lada Riva, remember. heebeegeetee said:
I expressed some doubt over your comment that the Elise is "hands down" better.
Now you’re misquoting me… what I said was that the Elise wins hands down in terms of steering feel and chassis feedback. Trust me, it does. By a very marked degree.The MX5 is ‘hands down’ better than the Elise in some respects – gearchange quality, practicality and everyday useability, for a start. The Elise wins ‘hands down’ in others… steering feel, chassis feedback and responsiveness, straight-line performance, etc.
heebeegeetee said:
You may well be right. You may well be right that an Elise is hands down better than the MX5 when it comes to handling and having fun, but if it is, i'm going to be very very surprised. I'm going to wonder how come no experienced and trustworthy journalist has made it this plainly known up until yet because the Mazda will be 20 years old this year.
Quite simply, because they’re in a different league. I can’t recall ever having seen a serious group test which included an Elise against an MX5; it’s not the sort of thing a magazine would do, any more than a group test of an Elise against a Lamborghini Gallardo.Magazines tend to be pretty formulaic, I’m afraid (again, trust me, I’ve been there. I know quite literally the ‘script’ to which various types of articles are written; it takes all the fun out of reading motoring magazines when you spend the whole time just waiting for the writer to reach the next step in the list…).
You’ll find the MX5 pitched against other cars in its market (MGF, MR2, cheaper BMW Z3’s etc), while the Elise will be pitched against Caterhams and other niche lightweight sportscars.
Since you’re a fan of Evo magazine, and since you question the Elise’s performance superiority on track, may I point you in the direction of the group test that pitched a Mk. 2 MX5 against the Toyota MR2, Smart Roadster and original Lotus Elan?
Full performance figures and lap times were taken and – around the same track, with the same driver, on the same day - the Elan was quicker than the MX5. It was also much quicker in a straight line and won subjectively on handling quality and ‘fun’, but that’s a different issue. Now, I know both the Elan and the Elise intimately. The Elan can usually keep pace with an Elise on the road (where forward visibility is usually the limiting factor), it’s a very different story on the track. While I’ve never seen back-to-back lap times with the same driver around the same track, in the same weather conditions, for an Elise and an MX5, if an Elan is markedly quicker than an MX5, with the same driver and an Elise is markedly quicker than an Elan with the same driver, it’s not difficult to draw logical conclusions…
heebeegeetee said:
Final thought: Every car is a compromise. You have some steering feel that actually has no consequence out on the road, but according to you the Elise can be lairy if you back off mid-corner, but the MX5 isn't. That could have a consequence
Indeed. So could the fact that the MX5 will have fallen off the road altogether long before the Elise reaches the limits of its grip.And let me be absolutely clear, the transition to oversteer is much sharper with the Elise, but so are its responses when you try to catch it. What this means in practice is that when the back end does step out, it’s easier to hold the MX5 in an oversteer power-slide than it is the Elise, but the Elise is easier to snap back into line with a flick of the wrists.
Most cars will snap into oversteer if you lift off suddenly mid-corner. If you’re dumb enough to make the error in the first place, you’re probably dumb enough not to be able to react correctly to the resultant slide, either, so the choice is probably going to be between a fast spin and a slow one…
Despite the bravado and bulls
t that is prevalent on computer forums, the reality is that very few of us regularly provoke full-blooded oversteer slides when cornering on public roads (or, indeed, on track – it simply isn’t the quickest way to get around), so apart from the odd bit of tomfoolery on a roundabout, how the car behaves once the back end has broken away is largely irrelevant.jackal said:
Sam_68 said:
but enough to form reasonable judgements and infinitely more experience than you've had with the Elise, by your own admission.
where reasonable judgement = coming from someone who reckons a westfield has as much steering feel as a caterham IN SUMMARY: 'IGNORE USER'
Hello, Jackal! I assume that was aimed at me? Would you care to point me at an instance where I ever claimed that 'normal' Westfields have better steering feel than Caterhams? The Eleven and the FW400 do, but I've always said that, in my opinion (jeez, I'm starting to sound like heebeegeetee now, aren't I?) Caterham has a slight edge over the SE/SEi range.
Have you worked out why your nuts haven't fallen off, yet, by the way?
I do find all this rather amusing...
even more so when you consider the MX5 was massively based on a Lotus Elan (proper one, not a M100).
I am not a great fan of MX5's, but that's not to say they are not a great little sportscar much the same as the Elise is, yes, they are very different, so what?
even more so when you consider the MX5 was massively based on a Lotus Elan (proper one, not a M100).
I am not a great fan of MX5's, but that's not to say they are not a great little sportscar much the same as the Elise is, yes, they are very different, so what?
Sam_68 said:
heebeegeetee said:
…but i *know* (not "think", *know*) that an MX5 can be changed from being a very mundane and ordinary drive to something that is full of feel and zap. I know this because i have experienced it.
So can any car, if you know what you’re doing. Lotus famously did it with a Lada Riva, remember. I say that even without going into ride heights and damper settings (and i might argue there's no need to) you can make a 100% difference to an MX5. Now we can argue what 100% is, but i say you can use the built in adjustments on an MX5 to create either a car that is nothing specila at all to a car that is really alive and full of feedback, as good as pretty much anything else out there except a Lotus Elise. Certainly as good in feedback and balance than a Boxster.
heebeegeetee said:
I expressed some doubt over your comment that the Elise is "hands down" better.
Now you’re misquoting me… what I said was that the Elise wins hands down in terms of steering feel and chassis feedback.That was what i was reffering to, or intended to refer to.
Sam_68 said:
lots of stuff about mags, jounos and outright speed
I agree with all you say, but i was doing my best to avoid giving the impression that i was trying to say that the MX5 is as quick as an Elise. I never thought that and thought i hadn't said it. We both know that what professionals do at a circuit and what ordinary owners like me do. The reason i refer to my evening at Donny is because i beleive that what we had there was as good a representative of the type of enthusiast who buys an Elise as you could wish to find. I did say quite early on that I thought the reason there wasn't a lot to choose from our cars in performance is because i imagined that an Elise is abit more complex to get the best out of it compared to something straight forward to drive like the MX5, and i seem to recall that you agreed with me. There is a world of difference between the professional and the ordinary (albeit enthustic) driver. However, it is the ordinary enthusiast who is going to be buying the cars.
Sam_68 said:
Most cars will snap into oversteer if you lift off suddenly mid-corner. If you’re dumb enough to make the error in the first place, you’re probably dumb enough not to be able to react correctly to the resultant slide, either, so the choice is probably going to be between a fast spin and a slow one…
Despite the bravado and bullst that is prevalent on computer forums, the reality is that very few of us regularly provoke full-blooded oversteer slides when cornering on public roads (or, indeed, on track – it simply isn’t the quickest way to get around), so apart from the odd bit of tomfoolery on a roundabout, how the car behaves once the back end has broken away is largely irrelevant.
Despite the bravado and bulls
t that is prevalent on computer forums, the reality is that very few of us regularly provoke full-blooded oversteer slides when cornering on public roads (or, indeed, on track – it simply isn’t the quickest way to get around), so apart from the odd bit of tomfoolery on a roundabout, how the car behaves once the back end has broken away is largely irrelevant.I totally agree you, especially your last paragraph. However, as i said, i indulged in a bit of blatant tomfoolery at 2am t'other morning in that cold snap, and ended up getting my car well too far sideways, i lifted off the throttle far too abruptly and thought, "here we go, there'll be a big fishtail here" and got ready to catch it, but there wasn't one single bit of it, not a centimetre. I've never driven any other car that would do that. Even after a good few years of ownership the car still surprises me, but not in a bad way.
Sam_68 said:
I assume that was aimed at me? Would you care to point me at an instance where I ever claimed that 'normal' Westfields have better steering feel than Caterhams? The Eleven and the FW400 do, but I've always said that, in my opinion (jeez, I'm starting to sound like heebeegeetee now, aren't I?) Caterham has a slight edge over the SE/SEi range.
I *thought* you said earlier that the Caterhams and Westfields were much the same, and that the steering on the westie was similar to the MX5. I can assure you that the westies i owned between '88 and approx '92 were as far apart from the Mx5 in terms of steering as is possible to get.My first westfield was a pre-lit live axle model bought from Paul Matty and set up by him (although the only available set-up was the same on every car plus camber). My second one was an SEi bought from a private owner. (I didn't fancy building my own at the time). The SEi was far the better car but the steering was exactly the same. The cars didn't have enough caster, and if you read between the lines in the reports in the kit car (and other) mags at the time, they said so too. They all also said that the suspension was fully adjustable, but it wasn't. The only way you could alter the caster was too grind off the chassis pick-up points and weld new ones in at the right place.
I haven't driven a Westfield since but have always assumed that they *must* have addressed that issue.
Scuffers said:
even more so when you consider the MX5 was massively based on a Lotus Elan (proper one, not a M100).
In fairness, i don't think you can say that. The MX5 was something of an amalgamation of a number of cars, but i think it would be better to say that those keen engineers at Mazda tried to take the best from various cars and leave out the worst, which apart from outright speed i thought they did a cracking job of doing. But there is no Lotus DNA in a Mazda, nor anybody elses come to that.Ok, the styling is similar, and i thought Mazda were cheeky with the cam covers,
, and i've no doubt that they had the Elan in mind when determining how the car would handle, but the MX5 is far too heavy to try to drawer any further comparisons between the two cars imo. Which might explain why they don't fall apart around you, of course.Edited by heebeegeetee on Thursday 15th January 17:28
heebeegeetee said:
RobM77 said:
Sedcondly, as for jumping in and finding the limit quickly, the Elise gives a good connection with the road and has non assisted controls, so it's just like leaping into a kart, a Formula Ford or a Caterham - the limit's clear and obvious and you find it immediately. "Adjusting" to cars is in reality just a term used for modern cars with power assisted controls and soft bushes etc referring to learning to fill the gaps in feedback with trust. I'm not saying the MX5 doesn't manage this well, as it does (in fact it's one of the easiest cars to just jump in and drive fast), but the Elise is peerless at it.
I'm sure you're dead right. but Sam said Sam_68 said:
Unless you lift off sharply, mid bend.
...and you could say the same about the S2 Elise.
If you're using the 'on-limit' definition of 'good handling', the difference is not just predictability, it's the rate of transition.
Transverse mid-engined cars like the Elise and the Lancia Stratos tend to go from neutral to dramatic oversteer within a very narrow bandwidth of lateral G. In plain English, when they let go, they let go suddenly. Low profile tyres tend to exacerbate these characteristics, too.
Cars like the MX5 and Elan have a much milder, more progressive transition from understeer, through neutral, to oversteer, so they are much easier to balance where you want them, by juggling steering and throttle.
...and you could say the same about the S2 Elise.
If you're using the 'on-limit' definition of 'good handling', the difference is not just predictability, it's the rate of transition.
Transverse mid-engined cars like the Elise and the Lancia Stratos tend to go from neutral to dramatic oversteer within a very narrow bandwidth of lateral G. In plain English, when they let go, they let go suddenly. Low profile tyres tend to exacerbate these characteristics, too.
Cars like the MX5 and Elan have a much milder, more progressive transition from understeer, through neutral, to oversteer, so they are much easier to balance where you want them, by juggling steering and throttle.
Sam_68 said:
Yes, I think you're probably right on both counts. You need quick wits, if you're going to push it to the limits in an Elise and unless you're exceptionally good, it gets too tricky to be much fun. Most Elise drivers quite sensibly concentrate on improving their consistency and precision of line whilst remaining comfortably within the cars limits, whereas the MX5 is easier and more fun to drive right up to the edge of its available grip.
I suppose if you're not an especially sensitive driver and/or have fitted very stiff ARBs/springs or sticky tyres with a sharp drop off in grip and are therefore more likely to be flipping in and out of handling states; then the MX5 is a better car than the Elise, because it gives you much more room for error. Also, if you like holding long sideways slides or generally just sliding around like a loon then it's mmuch much easier to do in the MX5. A friend of mine has an Elise and an MX5 and having driven both I can see why
He tells me that his favourite handling car is his Elise though, out of everything he's ever owned. Doesn't stop him owning an MX5 as well though, and I would do if I had the chance too Edited by RobM77 on Thursday 15th January 18:01
heebeegeetee said:
If you can turn any car into a highly regarded drivers car then every manufacturer would have done that.
A highly regarded drivers car like the Lotus Cortina, perhaps?Highly regarded enough to be fetching Ferrari 355 prices, anyway...
And have you ever heard anyone raving about what a good driver's car the standard Mk.1 'tina was?
heebeegeetee said:
I say that even without going into ride heights and damper settings (and i might argue there's no need to) you can make a 100% difference to an MX5.
Just using the standard range of adjustment? Now it's my turn to seriously doubt you...How would you do that? And more importantly, why hasn't Mazda done it already?
heebeegeetee said:
...I imagined that an Elise is abit more complex to get the best out of it compared to something straight forward to drive like the MX5, and I seem to recall that you agreed with me.
It is, and I do (though 'subtle' might be a better word than 'complex'.All Lotuses tend to respond best to sensitive drivers - if your a bit ragged or hamfisted, the car will respond in kind and feel a bit messy and disjointed. It won't try to kill you, but it'll tell you you're doing it wrong.But even if you get 'the best' out of a standard MX5, you're only going to be at about 85% of the 'the best' of an Elise. That's not intended to be provocative; the Elise has much better acceleration than any standard MX5, so it would have a bit of catching up to do, even if the Lotus handled like one of Blackpool's finest. As it is, the Elise can generate about 15% more cornering force as well, so it doesn't need to be driven right to the edge of the envelope to outpace the Mazda.
Track days are about fun, not lap times, so if you get your kicks out of feeling that you've pushed your car to the limits and beyond and lived to tell the tale, then you'll no doubt prefer the MX5.
If you prefer the challenge of driving swiftly and accurately, and enjoy the satisfaction of a car that's a precision tool and responds when you do it right, you'll prefer the Elise.
Sam_68 said:
How would you do that? And more importantly, why hasn't Mazda done it already?
Well they have, obviously.When i get chance i'll scan the autocar piece where they describe their MX5 that wasn't much cop yet just 12 months before it had been the best drivers car on sale in Britain, apparently.
heebeegeetee said:
Scuffers said:
even more so when you consider the MX5 was massively based on a Lotus Elan (proper one, not a M100).
In fairness, i don't think you can say that. The MX5 was something of an amalgamation of a number of cars, but i think it would be better to say that those keen engineers at Mazda tried to take the best from various cars and leave out the worst, which apart from outright speed i thought they did a cracking job of doing. But there is no Lotus DNA in a Mazda, nor anybody elses come to that.even Mazda themselves admit they brought a few Elan's when they were designing the MX5.
(and as for the DNA comment, that's such a marketing derived term, it's just super-bull.)
Having read your posts on this thread, it's increasingly clear you really have no grasp of the subjects you are commenting on, as well as having never driven one of the cars in question.... amazing that you can write soo much on the subject.
Scuffers said:
heebeegeetee said:
Scuffers said:
even more so when you consider the MX5 was massively based on a Lotus Elan (proper one, not a M100).
In fairness, i don't think you can say that. The MX5 was something of an amalgamation of a number of cars, but i think it would be better to say that those keen engineers at Mazda tried to take the best from various cars and leave out the worst, which apart from outright speed i thought they did a cracking job of doing. But there is no Lotus DNA in a Mazda, nor anybody elses come to that.even Mazda themselves admit they brought a few Elan's when they were designing the MX5.
(and as for the DNA comment, that's such a marketing derived term, it's just super-bull.)
Having read your posts on this thread, it's increasingly clear you really have no grasp of the subjects you are commenting on, as well as having never driven one of the cars in question.... amazing that you can write soo much on the subject.
Mazda obtained an example of most european sports cars. I believe they started with the Spitfire. The Spitfire was based on the herald chassis.
You can't copy something and then say it is 'based on' what you copied. If i painted a tremendously accurate copy of the Mona Lisa, it will only ever be a copy and it will always be worthless.
It's just too much of a simplification to say the MX5 is 'based on' the Elan. All imho natch.
Edited 'cos i went on a bit.
Edited by heebeegeetee on Thursday 15th January 22:01
kambites said:
The Elise does a lot of things extremely well. Making a pleasing noise is not one of them. To be fair, the same comment could be leveled at the MX5 though.
To be fair, even with the faff of getting in / out / stowing luggage / winter demisting, the noise is pretty much my only bugbear with the Elise. They can be made to sound interesting, loud or plain menacing depending on your budget (and your aural constitution) but not quite special imo. It'd be nice if they could find a light enough multi-cylinder engine but I suspect that one with the requisite characteristics (decent durability / cost power / torque / sense of occasion and, perhaps less importantly, economy) doesn't exist. At least not with the ideal blend of compromises. The car would end up being a lot heavy and slightly different in character. Something like an Evora
I imagine a K20A on naughty pipes would give a nice edge without being as truculent as a VHPD k-series though.
The five is more easily made aurally imposing with the not so simple transformation into Frankenstein's pet project via the LS-series option
Edited by Diesel Meister on Thursday 15th January 20:13
Edited by Diesel Meister on Thursday 15th January 20:14
Diesel Meister said:
kambites said:
The Elise does a lot of things extremely well. Making a pleasing noise is not one of them. To be fair, the same comment could be leveled at the MX5 though.
To be fair, even with the faff of getting in / out / stowing luggage / winter demisting, the noise is pretty much my only bugbear with the Elise. They can be made to sound interesting, loud or plain menacing depending on your budget (and your aural constitution) but not quite special imo. Diesel Meister said:
The five is more easily made aurally imposing with the not so simple transformation into Frankenstein's pet project via the LS-series option
Indeed... like this:
OK, It's a 5.0HO rather than an LS-series but you're absolutely spot on. It sounds tremendous.
Edited by Strangely Brown on Thursday 15th January 20:26
Diesel Meister said:
I imagine a K20A on naughty pipes would give a nice edge without being as truculent as a VHPD k-series though.
they sound OK without silly 'pipes'http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=77564140...
Edited by Scuffers on Thursday 15th January 20:47
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