MX5 vs Elise - Debate

[waynepixel]

The Elise would wipe the floor with any MX5, there not even in the same ball park.

[Strangely Brown]

heebeegeetee said:

I was surprised on my track evening though, because the one Elise that i was tussling with in particular was a little bit quicker than me on the straight but i was quicker than him in the corners, most notably the right left chicane at the end of the straight, where i would pull a boat load out of him.

I'd be surprised if the driver didn't play more of role in that difference than the car.

[matt uk]

This is an interesting debate as we all seem to have a different view on what 'good handling' actually is.

For me a good handling car is a predictable one when driven at, just below or just over the limit of available grip. One that sends me clear messages about what the chassis is doing now and what it is going to do next and one that also gives me the control to adjust the car and for it to react accordingly to do what I want it to do right now and immediately after my next input of steering, throttle or brakes.

[heebeegeetee]

waynepixel said:

The Elise would wipe the floor with any MX5, there not even in the same ball park.

As I say, emphatically not my experience at the MG/Lotus track evening i went to. Only the Exiges were quicker by any considerable margin.

Strangely Brown said:

heebeegeetee said:

I was surprised on my track evening though, because the one Elise that i was tussling with in particular was a little bit quicker than me on the straight but i was quicker than him in the corners, most notably the right left chicane at the end of the straight, where i would pull a boat load out of him.

I'd be surprised if the driver didn't play more of role in that difference than the car.

I would totally agree with you, and say that the cars are possibly close enough together that the driver will make all the difference in every case. Possibly.

But just to let you know where i am as a driver, I took the same car to the nurburgring, and what did i find? That i couldn't go as fast as the girl in the Transit.

As you say, its all down to the driver. An Elise should beat an MX5 every time, but they don't, simple as. I put that down to the idea that the handling of the Elise is possibly more 'complex' than in the 5.

I'm happy to add that i think my 5 is a better handling car than my Boxster S on the track, but not on the road.

[heebeegeetee]

matt uk said:

This is an interesting debate as we all seem to have a different view on what 'good handling' actually is.

For me a good handling car is a predictable one when driven at, just below or just over the limit of available grip. One that sends me clear messages about what the chassis is doing now and what it is going to do next and one that also gives me the control to adjust the car and for it to react accordingly to do what I want it to do right now and immediately after my next input of steering, throttle or brakes.

Yes, i'd go with that. I'd ad that the better handling car will be happier at being driven well over the limit too, but i think you need an lsd for that.

[Sam_68]

matt uk said:

For me a good handling car is a predictable one when driven at, just below or just over the limit of available grip.

That's one perfectly sensible definition. In those terms, the MX5 is much better than the Elise (and yes, the original Elan is even better than the Mazda). The S1 Elise is a bit snappy at the limit and even the S2 can suffer from lift-off oversteer if you are particularly clumsy, whereas the MX5 is more benign.

The other sensible definition is to take a broader view of the overall chassis behaviour, including steering feel, accuracy, and responsiveness, throughout the performance envelope. In this definition, the Elise wins hands down; the steering feel is superb and the chassis response is very sharp and accurate, no matter how hard you are driving.

It depends on your personal tastes, ability and requirements, I guess.

[kambites]

matt uk said:

For me a good handling car is a predictable one when driven at, just below or just over the limit of available grip.

If that's the sole extent of your definition, a Nissan Micro is presumably your favourite handling car, because you can be damned sure it's going to understeer on the limit.

Edited by kambites on Monday 12th January 13:06

[Sam_68]

kambites said:

...you can be damned sure it's going to understeer on the limit.

Unless you lift off sharply, mid bend.

...and you could say the same about the S2 Elise.

If you're using the 'on-limit' definition of 'good handling', the difference is not just predictability, it's the rate of transition.

Transverse mid-engined cars like the Elise and the Lancia Stratos tend to go from neutral to dramatic oversteer within a very narrow bandwidth of lateral G. In plain English, when they let go, they let go suddenly. Low profile tyres tend to exacerbate these characteristics, too.

Cars like the MX5 and Elan have a much milder, more progressive transition from understeer, through neutral, to oversteer, so they are much easier to balance where you want them, by juggling steering and throttle.

[kambites]

I'll give you a fiver if you can get a 1.0 Micra to lift-off oversteer without being completely stupid.

[matt uk]

kambites said:

matt uk said:

For me a good handling car is a predictable one when driven at, just below or just over the limit of available grip.

If that's the sole extent of your definition, a Nissan Micro is presumably your favourite handling car, because you can be damned sure it's going to understeer on the limit.

Edited by kambites on Monday 12th January 13:06

Good point actually, I'll re-think how I word that one for next time..

[heebeegeetee]

Sam_68 said:

steering feel, accuracy, and responsiveness, throughout the performance envelope. In this definition, the Elise wins hands down; the steering feel is superb and the chassis response is very sharp and accurate, no matter how hard you are driving.

I've never driven an Elise, but i'd be surprised if its steering was 'hands down' better than the MX5. The MX5 is really very, very good in this department imo. I would expect the Elise to be a little better but i'd be amazed if it as much so, and i think you'd need to be on the right roads to really tell the difference.

Personally, i tend to feel things with my fingertips and not the palms of my hands, and i'm the same with steering. I may be different in that i prefer light steering, so long as it has feel too of course. I prefer light, delicate controls.

I love your Elan though. Mazda definitely did not manage to copy the Elans proportions when they were so blatantly copying that car.

I think without a doubt if you could build the Mazda reliability and quality into an Elan and retained all the Elans attributes, you'd have the best 2-seater car ever made.

[Rawwr]

heebeegeetee said:

I've never driven an Elise, but i'd be surprised if its steering was 'hands down' better than the MX5.

You'd be very surprised, then.

[jackal]

matt uk said:

This is an interesting debate as we all seem to have a different view on what 'good handling' actually is.

For me a good handling car is a predictable one when driven at, just below or just over the limit of available grip. One that sends me clear messages about what the chassis is doing now and what it is going to do next and one that also gives me the control to adjust the car and for it to react accordingly to do what I want it to do right now and immediately after my next input of steering, throttle or brakes.

sounds reasonable enough... at least you have attempted to describe what you mean by handling any any discussion using the word requires each and every person to state their definition imo


but you haven't mentioned actual behaviour, like what the cars natural tendency to do is on entry, mid and on exit... what it does when lifting off, when botting the throttle mid bend , how snappy it might be due to wheelbase/engien placement etc..

all of this is handling too and for me, is what I mean mainly by 'handling' more than anything else. It doesn't necessarily have much to do with which car is best at utilising available grip or which is the fastest... its to do with how I want a car to behave.

[heebeegeetee]

Rawwr said:

heebeegeetee said:

I've never driven an Elise, but i'd be surprised if its steering was 'hands down' better than the MX5.

You'd be very surprised, then.

I gotta be honest, i doubt it.

[chris7676]

Pointless to argue without having experienced.

[jackal]

heebeegeetee said:

Sam_68 said:

steering feel, accuracy, and responsiveness, throughout the performance envelope. In this definition, the Elise wins hands down; the steering feel is superb and the chassis response is very sharp and accurate, no matter how hard you are driving.

I've never driven an Elise, but i'd be surprised if its steering was 'hands down' better than the MX5. The MX5 is really very, very good in this department imo.

It is. IN fact I drove my mums MX5 just a few weeks ago and was quite shocked just how remote the wheel was. based on that car I don't rate it at all tbh.

[vz-r_dave]

Rawwr said:

heebeegeetee said:

I've never driven an Elise, but i'd be surprised if its steering was 'hands down' better than the MX5.

You'd be very surprised, then.

Its funny how anyone who owns or has owned a Lotus Elise makes the same assumptions an MX5 driver does but feels that they are allowed too. Why is that.

[kambites]

heebeegeetee said:

Rawwr said:

heebeegeetee said:

I've never driven an Elise, but i'd be surprised if its steering was 'hands down' better than the MX5.

You'd be very surprised, then.

I gotta be honest, i doubt it.

You really will. If the geometry is set up right (which it rarely is, most owners don't get their geo done nearly often enough) the Elise is an order of magnitude better than the MX5.

That's not to say that MX5 is at all bad, because it's not, it's very good.

Edited by kambites on Monday 12th January 14:03

[Raify]

heebeegeetee said:

Rawwr said:

heebeegeetee said:

I've never driven an Elise, but i'd be surprised if its steering was 'hands down' better than the MX5.

You'd be very surprised, then.

I gotta be honest, i doubt it.

I've driven both, on roads and track. The Elise steering is that good, much more feel than the Mx5.

But, the Elise is definitely in the same ball park. I regularly do Lotus track days in a NA Mx5 and it's a comperable speed to a standard S1.

[Strangely Brown]

heebeegeetee said:

Strangely Brown said:

heebeegeetee said:

I was surprised on my track evening though, because the one Elise that i was tussling with in particular was a little bit quicker than me on the straight but i was quicker than him in the corners, most notably the right left chicane at the end of the straight, where i would pull a boat load out of him.

I'd be surprised if the driver didn't play more of role in that difference than the car.

I would totally agree with you, and say that the cars are possibly close enough together that the driver will make all the difference in every case. Possibly.

I was thinking perhaps that you were more comfortable with your car on that circuit than the Elise driver was with his. I would think that with two equally matched drivers, the Elise would be leaving the MX5 in the corners as well as on the straights.


On the subject of steering feel, I think you really need to blag yourself a drive in an Elise. You'd be surprised at just how light and informative the steering is. You're a bit far away from me otherwise I'd let you try mine.

Tiff thinks it's rather good.

Edited by Strangely Brown on Monday 12th January 14:14