Ministry of Crap Design - Modern Car Ergonomics

[ajprice]

So if RHD iDrive was on the door it would be brilliant!

[pits]

What about 2001 onwards Jeep Cherokee, relatively good car, and miss ours, but dear god sort out the controls
First of
Radio controls.

Radio setting 1, you can have 10 set stations, but the ability to only programe 5 with ease.

Steering controls switch slightly and get confusing when you go from CD to radio

Heater controls, theres hundreds of them

fan speed 1-4

the aircon is on the directional one.

to turn the fans off, its on the directional selection!!why?

Electric windows switches are the same as the door lock switches, not really an issue, but then you realise some thought it would be better to mount the door lock switches, where the window switches should be on the door.

Window switches are now in center console, but the ones you first reach out of instinct, open the rear windows. So let me give you an example of why this is utterly st design.
Light up ciggie, open window...no you have locked the door, swear at the car, go for window switches, you have opened the rear windows, swear even more, before finally getting the front ones down!!

Whilst we are on the subject of windows, they are all auto down, the sunroof is auto open. Auto close, no, you have to hold the button to auto close

the three lights on the dash for cruise control and 2 other things, good position there, so good I cant even see them when driving because the steering wheel cowling covers them!

Next, the wipers, dear god the most irritating set of wipers I have ever come across, you twist the stalk end to get them to work, no real problem, but there isnt any decent intermittent speed on them.

The washer jets on the front are amazing, they spray a very thick spread of water over the windscreen which blinds you, it removes all forward vision, its like driving along and someone throwing a bucket of water over the windscreen

When you turn the car off, without turning the lights off first. then turn the lights of after pulling keys out, they come back on! NO! I wanted them fking off, thats why I turned it to the off fking position

O/D button which serves no purpose but just puts more revs in and uses more fuel, you dont go any faster

The amount of beeps, yes I know have taken my seat belt of and got out of the car whilst it is still running but stationary, with the lights on. I am not a fking idiot, I know what I am doing

[grimfandango]

kambites said:

Zod said:

The Black Flash said:

RobM77 said:

Oh, and not forgetting steering wheels, which always seem to be about three inches too far away.

My absolute pet hate. Always having to choose between cramped legs and stretched arms.

Yes, I'm tall with long arms, but I always have to adjust the wheel to its furthest out from the dash to get the correct driving position (able to rest wrists on top of the wheel).

Long legs and short arms here. In modern cars, I generally have to choose between the "knees around the ears" type driving position, or walking.

+1 all to many cars ive had or driven have been like this with the exeption of my mr2 which thankfully has a steeringwheel that adjusts back and forward

[pits]

grimfandango said:

kambites said:

Zod said:

The Black Flash said:

RobM77 said:

Oh, and not forgetting steering wheels, which always seem to be about three inches too far away.

My absolute pet hate. Always having to choose between cramped legs and stretched arms.

Yes, I'm tall with long arms, but I always have to adjust the wheel to its furthest out from the dash to get the correct driving position (able to rest wrists on top of the wheel).

Long legs and short arms here. In modern cars, I generally have to choose between the "knees around the ears" type driving position, or walking.

+1 all to many cars ive had or driven have been like this with the exeption of my mr2 which thankfully has a steeringwheel that adjusts back and forward

+2
Had to drive my mates VW T4 van up his drive yesterday, its more a dirt track with lots of humps ditches, potholes, more 4wd territory, I had to bring the seat so far forwad, so I could get proper clutch control, but then I was crushed against the wheel, so had to drive like it. nightmare

[Superhoop]

My current Mazda6 has rotary knobs for the Climate control, all within easy reach, the wiper/indicator stalks (on the wrong side, but then most others makes are too) all function in a logical way.

But all of this irrelevant - Heater (all functions) info display, stereo (all functions) can be operated from a very easy to use set of switches on the steering wheel.

The other side of the steering wheel has Cruise control switches.

Oh, and a conventional handbrake - Electric ones are a)noisey b)a gimmick c) a pain in the arse when the battery goes flat and d) more expensive when they go wrong

[va1o]

Superhoop - Is that the current 6 you refer to or is it the previous gen?

[BrassMan]

mat205125 said:

Mr Will said:

off_again said:

The one that used to get me, but is not so these days, was around full beam. I used to live in the wilds of the Warwickshire countryside and it would relatively common to drive home and park without having to turn off full beam. Not so much of a problem but almost all of the cars I had at the time didn't auto-cancel the full beam.

Turned out that the Citroen Xantia that I had did. Turn the ignition off and the full beam cancelled. Its a small thing but showed that someone somewhere in the design part of Citroen thought of that! Shame they didnt work in the seat department, or the 'how to actually build cars properly' department!

Did you ever notice that in the Xantia almost every control you'd need while driving was on the stalks or the wheel? Everything from the lights and the radio all the way to the heated rear screen is on there so you very rarely have to take your hands off the wheel.

Bottom line is that the Xantia and XM are actually rather good cars, and not significantly less relaible than their contempories

Mine was very confortable, the only car that I've driven that was layd out for someone around 6' tall. It wasn't perfect, though. The lights were rubbish and as the full beam warning light was just behind the position of my right hand, I dazzled a lot of oncoming traffic. Also, the rear view mirror was at eye level, giving a huge hidden blindspot.

[Superhoop]

va1o said:

Superhoop - Is that the current 6 you refer to or is it the previous gen?

The current one. Everything to hand, comfortable, handles well, goes ok, reasonable running costs, very reliable so far, and didn't cost the earth either

[RobM77]

pits said:

grimfandango said:

kambites said:

Zod said:

The Black Flash said:

RobM77 said:

Oh, and not forgetting steering wheels, which always seem to be about three inches too far away.

My absolute pet hate. Always having to choose between cramped legs and stretched arms.

Yes, I'm tall with long arms, but I always have to adjust the wheel to its furthest out from the dash to get the correct driving position (able to rest wrists on top of the wheel).

Long legs and short arms here. In modern cars, I generally have to choose between the "knees around the ears" type driving position, or walking.

+1 all to many cars ive had or driven have been like this with the exeption of my mr2 which thankfully has a steeringwheel that adjusts back and forward

+2
Had to drive my mates VW T4 van up his drive yesterday, its more a dirt track with lots of humps ditches, potholes, more 4wd territory, I had to bring the seat so far forwad, so I could get proper clutch control, but then I was crushed against the wheel, so had to drive like it. nightmare

That's interesting, thanks. I've got the legs of a 6'3" guy (36"), and the arms of probably a 5'4" guy (I'm onyl 5'10" in height!), so I've always assumed that my struggle to get comfortable in cars was a personal thing. Let's take a manufacturer as an example - Porsche. I can't physically drive a 996 or anything made before it. Ok, I can drive them, but I can't steer so my possibilities are a bit limited! The 997 series cars introduced an adjustable steering wheel, which just makes driving possible, but difficult. £80,000 on a car that you can't even get comfortable in? Come on Porsche!! (and Lotus, Honda, Mercedes etc), what's the problem with making cars that we fit into?

[RobM77]

CommanderJameson said:

OllieWinchester said:

RobM77 said:

I too find E46 pedals close to perfect. Heel and toe is easy, and they're not offset if you think about where your left foot is most of the time...

My bad design awards would go to BMW's iDrive, which is more effective at keeping your eyes off the road than Kylie getting undressed in the back seat; and almost all car doors, which seen determined to accelerate back at you as soon as you've opened them. Oh, and not forgetting steering wheels, which always seem to be about three inches too far away.

Clarkson made a good point about iDrive recently in the Times, which makes a lot of sense to me. As it is a German car, its home market (And probably most of their market by a long way TBH) are left hand drive. If you think of the iDrive controller as like a sort of mouse, and then think how hard it is to use a computer mouse with your left hand, it might go some way to explaining why us brits seem to have such a dislike for it.

I'm left-handed and think it's ace.

Bit of a poor design that then isn't it? All left handed people outside of the UK think it's rubbish, and all right handed people in the UK think it's rubbish!

Forget handedness, it's actually the principle of the thing that I think's bad. When I want to do something like tune the radio or change a "sport" setting, I want to know where the switch is by feel so I can keep my eyes on the road. iDrive is impossible to use without taking your eyes off the road, so in my honest opinion it's dangerous. I won't buy another BMW until they get rid of it.

[Stack]

I find the indicators stalk on the E90 3 series very annoying, why cant they have the old fashioned click click type instead of the incredibly sensitive mechanism they have now.
I often find myself putting the opposite indicator on instead of cancelling.

Also the seat mechanism on Civic Type S / R is next to useless, why doesnt the seat revert back to its original position? Because its made of cheap crap thats why..

[Timberwolf]

OllieWinchester said:

I just don't get on with climate control full stop, like has already been said, where is the advancement in having to take your eyes off the road and press 3 buttons 15 times to get hot or cold when before you just twirled a dial?

Climate control is one of those things that I find hangs entirely on the layout of the controls and the sophistication of the programming behind it.

Rotary dials are vital. Yes, I know having a billion and twelve LCD displays and fiddly buttons like a 1980s Amstrad hi-fi system might make for more obvious differentiation between climate and manual A/C, but from a user perspective it's useless.

The point is that with a rotary dial, I know that 16 degrees is at one end of it and 28 is at the other, so I can probably get the temperature I want by "feel" alone without having to take my eyes off the road to prod and poke at a tiny plastic button some 1500 times while polling a display to see if I've got the temperature I want yet.

The second element is the computer. If I've chosen 21 degrees then I'm probably happy with something around that. It's not necessary to fire up the heaters full blast the moment we hit 20.999.

A truly good climate control system is bliss. You set the temperature once upon first getting the car, and that's it. End of story. The only thing you ever need to touch again on that panel is the button that demists the screen.

A bad one, on the other hand, the kind designed by someone with a technology fetish and a gigantic pile of spare LCDs, who doesn't consider their job done until the unit spends every moment of every journey firing around gusts of warm air and icy blasts with the fan going full tilt... well. Quite.

Edited by Timberwolf on Tuesday 17th February 20:57

[Nick_F]

williamp said:

How about this, 1971 RHD Aston Martin

Horn: on left stalk. Pull towards you to operate. tahts all this stalk does

Indicators/ flasher: right hand stalk

windscreen wipers: on knob by right knee. Push for screenwash. Above simmiler sized knob for rear damper adjustment and same sized knob for panel brightness

Lights (off-side-head). On roker swicth under radio. next to blank switch

Window switches: only two, in the centre of the dash, as high up as can be

Handbrake: fly-off design by left knee

Heating: Now this is the fun part: Fan speed and air circulation done by two knobs in centre console. Heat blend and control of side vents done by three silders in front of drivers right knee. Dont think about impact crash protection...


handling: very nicely, thank you. And as for the performance, well...

Edited by williamp on Tuesday 17th February 10:14

My Scimitar has

Head/Side Lights
Front Wipers
Rear Wiper
Front/rear Washers
Heated Rear Window

in a row of five identical, non-illuminated rocker switches across the dash, with the order determined by the car's previous owner...

[ajprice]

My vote goes to the Mini, definite case of form over function.
http://www.usercentric.com/about/news_item.php?m_i...

Edited by ajprice on Tuesday 17th February 21:05

[va1o]

MINI is quite confusing at first. When I was first in a R56 kept going for the 'selection wheel' when I wanted to adjust volume and wondered why it wasnt changing. The little switches are also difficult, like trying to work out which one is for the fog-lights. They all look the same!

[tr7v8]

stuckmojo said:

Worst ever: Alfa 75's window switches on the roof.
Nearly as bad: Old Fiat Ritmo's door handles. You'd risk snapping your fingers all the time

Ran a 75 for 3 years, thought the window controls were great! Enables the passenger to operate them & they become very easy to use, different yup but who cares!

[MGJohn]

OllieWinchester said:

RobM77 said:

I too find E46 pedals close to perfect. Heel and toe is easy, and they're not offset if you think about where your left foot is most of the time...

My bad design awards would go to BMW's iDrive, which is more effective at keeping your eyes off the road than Kylie getting undressed in the back seat; and almost all car doors, which seen determined to accelerate back at you as soon as you've opened them. Oh, and not forgetting steering wheels, which always seem to be about three inches too far away.

Clarkson made a good point about iDrive recently in the Times, which makes a lot of sense to me. As it is a German car, its home market (And probably most of their market by a long way TBH) are left hand drive. If you think of the iDrive controller as like a sort of mouse, and then think how hard it is to use a computer mouse with your left hand, it might go some way to explaining why us brits seem to have such a dislike for it.

Hmmm ... ergonomics.

About seven years ago, I started getting pains deep in the joints of my right wrist ~ nasty ~ years of too much mouse use. Thereafter I made a conscious effort to use my left hand for the mouse and after a month or so, my left hand became much more efficient which for most of my life, had been much less useful than my right hand as I was so thoroughly right handed. Much moreso now with the passing years of practice and exercise.

There was one exception where my left hand was better than my right. That was with undoing bottle and jar tops which can sometimes be difficult to undo. The reason is simple. In my late teens and early twenties, I frequently rode motorcycles and as any rider will confirm, you need good left hand control for that clutch lever. For several years, the bike I rode had a particularly heavy clutch which gave my left hand much daily exercise which resulted in a much firmer grip later in life.

Have to agree about modern car ergonomics. The only car I ever felt immediately at home in the first time I ever sat in one was the humble Montego. No other car before or since has suited my 'ergonomic' needs immediately. I still sometimes drive one for that and many other reasons. I also like the five speed intermittent windscreen wiper facility which you can set to almost any light rain conditions. Far better than any other car I've so far tried including so called 'premium' jobbies. The seating~gear lever~steering wheel~pedals positioning also suits my leg~arm~body length ratio perfectly. A degree of comfort on a long journey I rarely achieve in other cars supplied by my firm.

funny old game folks and cars ....

[Frik]

The Black Flash said:

Dave_ST220 said:

stifler said:

Peugeot 106 had the best full beam/dip switch.

None of this push away from you for on and pull back for off.

Pull towards you half way for flash, all the way for on, pull again for off.

The new fiesta has this system too iirc.

Loads of cars have been like that for years.

Yeah, and it's rubbish. Firstly, if you just want to give a flash, it's too easy to lock full beam on (could be partially solved with a detent at half way, although mine doesn't have this). Secondly, it's easier to quickly flick off a spring loaded switch than to have to pull all the way back through an inch or so of motion. I find them a right pain when driving on anything twisty. Personally I'd prefer a button on the wheel, under my right hand.

Agreed. It's the none thing on the Focus that doesn't seem to have been thought through at all. It's almost inevitable that the lights will be on main beam when you turn them on.

[FWD LOL]

I absolutely hate having the indicators on the left stalk, I never need to put my wipers in quickly whilst changing gear. Makes no sense. I'm glad most if not all Jap imports have the indicator on the right, where it should be!

Also, with regards to being able to change a bulb in 10 minutes, try changing a headlight bulb in an Evo 7. Bumper off job...can't really do that at the roadside in 10 mins! Stupid design, how hard is it to make it so you simply pull the bulb out?

The car that has bugged me with things like this the most has to be the 350Z;

Hated how the centre console cubby was basically impossible to get into whilst driving, really akward.

Hated the fact that the two lighter sockets were in the most annoying places imaginable, so you're either dragging the wires along the middle of the car to the socket behind you, or pretty much down in the passenger footwell. Not fun being strangled by a mess of sat-nav wire whenever you look around. Why put it BEHIND you ffs?!

Ever tried getting to that glove box behind the passenger seat? Didn't think so.

Tracton control button is placed right infront of your knee.

[Wadeski]

FWD LOL said:

I absolutely hate having the indicators on the left stalk, I never need to put my wipers in quickly whilst changing gear. Makes no sense. I'm glad most if not all Jap imports have the indicator on the right, where it should be!

They used to be that way here when we desinged our own cars. For cost saving reasons, European cars now just have one steering wheel configuration.

JDM cars still have the indicators on the correct side for RHD.