RE: SOTW: Mercedes Benz 190E 2.3-16

[Vidal Baboon]

fastgerman.com said:

Vidal Baboon said:

74merc said:

I've had an E30 M3 and a 2.5-16. The M3's best feature was it's steering and it was the Merc's worst feature. The Merc also rolled way too much for my liking. EVO magazine gives the BM 5 stars and the Merc 3 stars, which is about right in my experience.

Agree with you to a point- the steering on the Mercedes is not helped by the bus steering wheel, I was uneasy about dialling in huge movements at high speed to start with, but it's something you get used too.

You soon find the Mercedes will go around long sweeping corners, compliant & faster than you could imagine or feel comfortable.

I had an E30 318is straight after- I know it's not an M3, but it can't be that far off in terms of dynamics?
I found that to be very twitchy- almost unstable- the steering was too quick- but again, I got used to it.

I adore the Cosworth, I'd have another one tommorow if I had space in the garage.

An E30 M3 is VERY different to a 318 is.

http://www.fastgerman.com/e30m3.htm

Fair enough- I was unsure about what chassis differences there are between them & what they shared under the tin, hence the question mark.

How does the M3 compare to the iS in terms of driving?

Edited by Vidal Baboon on Monday 6th July 13:16

[fastgerman.com]

Vidal Baboon said:

fastgerman.com said:

Vidal Baboon said:

74merc said:

I've had an E30 M3 and a 2.5-16. The M3's best feature was it's steering and it was the Merc's worst feature. The Merc also rolled way too much for my liking. EVO magazine gives the BM 5 stars and the Merc 3 stars, which is about right in my experience.

Agree with you to a point- the steering on the Mercedes is not helped by the bus steering wheel, I was uneasy about dialling in huge movements at high speed to start with, but it's something you get used too.

You soon find the Mercedes will go around long sweeping corners, compliant & faster than you could imagine or feel comfortable.

I had an E30 318is straight after- I know it's not an M3, but it can't be that far off in terms of dynamics?
I found that to be very twitchy- almost unstable- the steering was too quick- but again, I got used to it.

I adore the Cosworth, I'd have another one tommorow if I had space in the garage.

An E30 M3 is VERY different to a 318 is.

http://www.fastgerman.com/e30m3.htm

Fair enough- I was unsure about what chassis differences there are between them & what they shared under the tin, hence the question mark.

How does the M3 compare to the iS in terms of driving?

Edited by Vidal Baboon on Monday 6th July 13:16

Just noticed your name, very good :-)

The E30 318is, in my opinion isn't too different to driving a VW Golf GTI 16v (MK2) around. Excellent handling but you have to thrash the living daylights out of it. The ride is good but the E30 M3 is alot more focussed. I'd have a 325i Sport over a 318is. The 320is is something closer to the M3.

In the M3, you feel glued to the ground, it's more like driving a Porsche 968. It's wider, lower and you feel like you're going racing, rather than going to work. The feedback through the steering wheel is like doing a track day in something lightweight and raw like an Exige, it's just fantastic. The reason for the E36 M3 not being such a hit is due to the E30 M3 being incredible.

The M3 really is in a different league to the Merc (in any form). Look at the 80's touring car history.

That said, if anyone would like to write a review on their own Merc, please send it to me - click my profile.

Edited by fastgerman.com on Monday 6th July 15:33

[Chrisbown]

Where is it advertised ?
Have looked in Mercedes and under 190's on the classifieds but I can't see it!
Please let me know as I think I have a bell that needs tolling or a scratch that needs itching & didn't realise until I read the article !

[Shropshiremike]

Vidal Baboon said:

74merc said:

I've had an E30 M3 and a 2.5-16. The M3's best feature was it's steering and it was the Merc's worst feature.

I had an E30 318is straight after-
I found that to be very twitchy- almost unstable- the steering was too quick- but again, I got used to it.

Standard E30 318is steering too quick? Blimey, not a criticism you often hear levelled at it. A lot of people switch to a faster rack than the standard ratio.

The E30 M3 steering is a bit faster than other E30s and it runs a LOT more caster as well.

The Merc has re-circulating ball set-up IIRC so it will never feel as 'sharp' as rack and pinion.

[Dunk76]

The Merc does have a re-circulating ball, and it's not actually that bad, if not a little long-winded when combined with that bloody great steering wheel.

In some ways it suits the nature of the car - you balance and steer it on the throttle rather than the wheel, and the long gearing and big wheel does allow remarkably fine adjustments in long sweepers.

[Vidal Baboon]

Shropshiremike said:

Vidal Baboon said:

74merc said:

I've had an E30 M3 and a 2.5-16. The M3's best feature was it's steering and it was the Merc's worst feature.

I had an E30 318is straight after-
I found that to be very twitchy- almost unstable- the steering was too quick- but again, I got used to it.

Standard E30 318is steering too quick? Blimey, not a criticism you often hear levelled at it. A lot of people switch to a faster rack than the standard ratio.
.

Try it after stepping out of a 190

[Rob_B]

is this still for sale? i couldnt find it in the classified section

drop me an email if it is mate

[e-mail]

[Bomber Denton]

I fitted a Momo wheel to the Merc and it's made a world of difference, very sharp.

[Vidal Baboon]

Dunk76 said:

The Merc does have a re-circulating ball, and it's not actually that bad, if not a little long-winded when combined with that bloody great steering wheel.

In some ways it suits the nature of the car - you balance and steer it on the throttle rather than the wheel, and the long gearing and big wheel does allow remarkably fine adjustments in long sweepers.

Sums it up nicely, it's exactly how I felt about the cars handling.

[Shropshiremike]

Vidal Baboon said:

Shropshiremike said:

Vidal Baboon said:

74merc said:

I've had an E30 M3 and a 2.5-16. The M3's best feature was it's steering and it was the Merc's worst feature.

I had an E30 318is straight after-
I found that to be very twitchy- almost unstable- the steering was too quick- but again, I got used to it.

Standard E30 318is steering too quick? Blimey, not a criticism you often hear levelled at it. A lot of people switch to a faster rack than the standard ratio.
.

Try it after stepping out of a 190

My friend's 190e 2.3 steering always felt 'quicker' in a turn than his E30 325 Sport but less 'precise' if you know what I mean. Roundabouts seemed to require less arm-twirling in the Merc ....then again I never drove them back to back so memory might be fading

[Dunk76]

Vidal Baboon said:

Dunk76 said:

The Merc does have a re-circulating ball, and it's not actually that bad, if not a little long-winded when combined with that bloody great steering wheel.

In some ways it suits the nature of the car - you balance and steer it on the throttle rather than the wheel, and the long gearing and big wheel does allow remarkably fine adjustments in long sweepers.

Sums it up nicely, it's exactly how I felt about the cars handling.

The thing that always amused me, although being a little unnerving to begin with, was the effect the SLS had on the rear in very long fast sweepers - initial body-roll would be slowly reversed and I could actually feel the rear trying to right itself.

[Pentoman]

Shropshiremike said:

Dunk76 said:

911stu said:

I remember when they were all current models What Car (not the most sporting magazine, granted) tested both and threw a Saphire Cosworth in for good measure. Surprisingly they all posted a time around there test track within a second of each other which is testament to the 190 handling as it is the slowest accelerating of the three.

Is that the one where they canned the M3 for being tail happy and having vague steering? (it was a Birds converted RHD press car)

Seem to remember Cosworth was faster everywhere but coarse and laggy
M3 was twitchy with bad steering - probably down to the steering conversion
190E was considered the nicest balanced but lacking in power

Hi Dunk

The one you refer to wasn't What Car but was the Autocar article from 17/2/88

I've heard fifth gear are re-enacting the Sierra cosworth vs Merc cosworth battle some time this series, around the track with Plato at the wheel, which will be interesting.

[Shropshiremike]

Pentoman said:

I've heard fifth gear are re-enacting the Sierra cosworth vs Merc cosworth battle some time this series, around the track with Plato at the wheel, which will be interesting.

Hopefully a 2.5-16 Merc

[norman156]

Shropshiremike said:

Pentoman said:

I've heard fifth gear are re-enacting the Sierra cosworth vs Merc cosworth battle some time this series, around the track with Plato at the wheel, which will be interesting.

Hopefully a 2.5-16 Merc

It is indeed a 2.5, kindly supplied by a member from the mercedes190.co.uk forum. Not sure how long until it's being aired though

Edited by norman156 on Monday 6th July 22:31

[911stu]

[quote=Bomber Denton]I recently picked this issue up from 1986 on Ebay.


[/quote

This must be what i was thinking of. I realy should have stayed at home more back in the Acid House days!!
I hang my head

[Shropshiremike]

911stu said:

Bomber Denton said:

I recently picked this issue up from 1986 on Ebay.

This must be what i was thinking of. I realy should have stayed at home more back in the Acid House days!!
I hang my head

Ah shame, couldn't recall the article you mentioned but would've been interested to read it

[cpl_payne]

Vidal Baboon said:

I had an E30 318is straight after- I know it's not an M3, but it can't be that far off in terms of dynamics?
I found that to be very twitchy- almost unstable- the steering was too quick- but again, I got used to it.

Hold on - did you just call steering on a standard e30 too quick? 4+ turns lock-to-lock?

[Vidal Baboon]

cpl_payne said:

Vidal Baboon said:

I had an E30 318is straight after- I know it's not an M3, but it can't be that far off in terms of dynamics?
I found that to be very twitchy- almost unstable- the steering was too quick- but again, I got used to it.

Hold on - did you just call steering on a standard e30 too quick? 4+ turns lock-to-lock?

You're quick to catch on

I'll say it again so it's easier for you to understand.

The Mercedes has a huge steering wheel, the BMW had PAS and a small M Tech wheel.
Couple that to the fact the car felt twitchy, then yes, the steering felt fast when compared to the Merc.

Regardless of turns lock to lock, it feels, when using the standard steering wheel, like you are dialing in alot of movement.

Edited by Vidal Baboon on Tuesday 7th July 12:51

[Shropshiremike]

norman156 said:

Pentoman said:

I've heard fifth gear are re-enacting the Sierra cosworth vs Merc cosworth battle some time this series, around the track with Plato at the wheel, which will be interesting.

It is indeed a 2.5, kindly supplied by a member from the mercedes190.co.uk forum. Not sure how long until it's being aired though

Should be on "5th Gear" on or about the 27th July Norman. They filmed at Millbrook back in June and used a 3-door Sierra

Just as an aside, the Merc is about 3.3 turns lock to lock according to the Autocar road test specs

Edited by Shropshiremike on Tuesday 7th July 12:29

[Shropshiremike]

Pentoman said:

I've heard fifth gear are re-enacting the Sierra cosworth vs Merc cosworth battle some time this series, around the track with Plato at the wheel, which will be interesting.

I think "interesting" were the Sierra owner's words re the driving as well
It's a black 14k Mile example