RE: Video: Toyota F1 Exit Opens New Doors

[rypt]

havard01 said:

rypt said:

WRC of today not as production based really though, unlike when the Celica was raced.
I think it's a stupid move to go back into rally as things stand, not unless we get homologinated cars again.

All of the cars in the WRC have to be homologated before they can run in the WRC, i'm not sure what point you are trying to make. Also, Toyota used the Corolla model as a WRC rally car and narrowly missed out on both the drivers and constructors championships at the end of the 1990's.

I am talking about WRC Spec cars here, compared to when the Celica raced which was Group A (when 2500 to 5000 cars had to be produced and sold).
Toyota only stayed for 2 seasons under the WRC rules (racing the Corolla) in '98 and 99, under these rules what you got at the dealer was not a rally car anyway - there are far, far, too many differences between the road car and the WRC car, compared to when it was Group A.

[Horse_Apple]

Steve_F said:

I don't get why Toyota would bother with any motor sport until they have a car in the range that would appeal to motorsport fans. They seem to be lacking any car with that type of appeal that they used to have.

Sponsoring SAGA events and VISA applications?

[GregorFuk]

Sadder still, this means we won't see Kobayashi in an F1 car next year. His driving was a little on the crazy side but there is no doubt he was good to watch.

[tim-b]

GregorFuk said:

Sadder still, this means we won't see Kobayashi in an F1 car next year. His driving was a little on the crazy side but there is no doubt he was good to watch.

I was just about to say that - I hope he gets another chance in F1 as he showed real spirit! (Just what F1 needs!)

[vz-r_dave]

castex said:

Dr G said:

Having always rather enjoyed the reliability of Toyota's mishaps, I now feel absolutely terrible about the whole thing.

It's seeing pictures like this that make you realise that even those at the top are true petrol heads and not just in it for the money.

Very sad picture.

[FC3SCorey]

Marf said:

Brabus Jord said:

BelperJim said:

I was under the impression that Toyota did some cheating in WRC at one point?

didn't they have a very clever turbo that got around some of the restrictions that were made by the FIA???

Yes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Motorsport_Gmb...

"In 1995 TTE was famously banned for 12 months from the WRC for cheating by designing an illegal air restrictor that included both a bypass mechanism and spring loaded devices to conceal it from scrutineers."

Genius guys.

Glad they're out of F1. Not sure who still watches that for racing entertainment.

[mustard tab]

As Sir Frank Williams has said before, this is the reason why it is bad for F1 to have so many manufacturers as constructors, if it is not politically palletable to be spending so much money without success then they will pull the plug. These people are not racers at heart, it just goes to show that money isn't every thing, and that talent counts for a lot.
IMO F1 is better without the big manufacturers investing directly in teams, ok i admit that F1 isnt what it used to be and things move on, but too many big car makers as teams is bad for the sport.
Roll on next year.

[LukeBird]

vz-r_dave said:

castex said:

Dr G said:

Having always rather enjoyed the reliability of Toyota's mishaps, I now feel absolutely terrible about the whole thing.

It's seeing pictures like this that make you realise that even those at the top are true petrol heads and not just in it for the money.

Very sad picture.

^^ That is a perfect summing up.
A real shame and touching that they do care...

[SleeperCell]

havard01 said:

rypt said:

WRC of today not as production based really though, unlike when the Celica was raced.
I think it's a stupid move to go back into rally as things stand, not unless we get homologinated cars again.

All of the cars in the WRC have to be homologated before they can run in the WRC, i'm not sure what point you are trying to make. Also, Toyota used the Corolla model as a WRC rally car and narrowly missed out on both the drivers and constructors championships at the end of the 1990's.

The point is that it's just homologating the bodyshell now, under Group A rules you could go into a Toyota showroom and buy a Celica GT-Four that had the same mechanical underpinnings as the rally cars that were tough enough to take on the safari rally and similar extreme endurance tests. Thus it was quite clear that if a car could finish these events, let alone win, the road version was going to be just as tough, just with a few more creature comforts. I mean just look at all the cool stuff the Celica GT-Four homologation model got:

wikipedia said:

The GT-Four ST205 was launched for Japanese market in February 1994, and for the Australian, European, and British markets in the mid-year. This version was to be the most powerful Celica produced to date, producing between 239-255 PS from an updated 3S-GTE engine. Influenced strongly by Toyota Team Europe, Toyota's factory team in the World Rally Championship, the final version of the GT-Four included improvements such as an all aluminum hood and front quarter panels to save weight, four-channel ABS, an improved CT20B turbocharger, and "Super Strut Suspension". The 2500 homologation cars built to allow Toyota to enter the GT-Four as a Group A car in the World Rally Championship also sported extras such as all of the plumbing required to activate an anti-lag system, a water spray bar and pump for the front intercooler, a small hood mounted spoiler aft of the windscreen washers and an extender spoiler mounted on risers. Out of 2500 GT-Four WRC, 2100 stayed in Japan, 300 were exported to Europe, 77 for Australia, and few to the general markets. Japanese WRC models had ABS as an option and also received climate control as standard. Export WRC models only received a manual aircon system but all had ABS.

But under WRC rules, they no longer needed to offer any of that on the road cars, so the closest thing you could buy to a WRC Corolla was a 125bhp 1.8L Corolla with a TRD enhancement package that was basically just a (very expensive) bodykit. You could watch the WRC car tackle the Finnish rally but that didn't tell you the road car was any good it might have had suspension made out of a bent coat hanger for all you knew. Since the main reason for manufacturers getting into rallying in the first place was to demonstrate how awesomely good their road cars were in such extreme conditions, it sort of missed the point completely when they started making custom rally cars with nothing in common with the road cars!

This was/is rather like advertising delicious chocolate ice cream then only offering the consumer (to whom the advertising is supposed to be aimed after all) a bowl of dogst and trying to tell them it's basically the same thing, because it looks kinda similar whereas they couldn't be more different in every way that's actually important. If they want to advertise by racing, they should offer something that's at the very least got the same basic engine and layout as the racecar otherwise it's completely and utterly pointless.

[The Wookie]

On a positive note though, it does seem like the tide is turning for F1, and quite a few manufacturers are realising that there isn't enough connection with 'reality'.

Could we see a renaissance in various GT, Toca and Rallying series with all of their ongoing drives to reduce costs?

Edited by The Wookie on Wednesday 4th November 14:37

[rev-erend]

Sadly the decision has been expected for about 6 months.. and is very sad.

[rypt]

The Wookie said:

Could we see a renaissance in various GT, Toca and Rallying series with all of their ongoing drives to reduce costs?

Problem is, many of those series (especially touring cars and rally) are just as disconnected from road cars with plenty of their own silly regulations.

[mustard tab]

rev-erend said:

Sadly the decision has been expected for about 6 months.. and is very sad.

I fail to understand why this is very sad, apart from lots of people loosing their jobs in the current climate, but this is not what the post is about. Toyota are a car manufacturer in the business of making money, which they are generally very good at, they weren't good enough at F1 so they have pulled out as it is politically difficult for them and bad for marketing (Prius). It would be far sadder to see the likes of Wiliams following the likes of Tyrrell, Brabham, Ligier and such like, these are/were proper racing teams in F1 to race and not as a marketing exercise.

[The Wookie]

rypt said:

The Wookie said:

Could we see a renaissance in various GT, Toca and Rallying series with all of their ongoing drives to reduce costs?

Problem is, many of those series (especially touring cars and rally) are just as disconnected from road cars with plenty of their own silly regulations.

That's my point, quite a few are having a drive at the moment to reduce costs and as a result improve that connection.

[rypt]

The Wookie said:

rypt said:

The Wookie said:

Could we see a renaissance in various GT, Toca and Rallying series with all of their ongoing drives to reduce costs?

Problem is, many of those series (especially touring cars and rally) are just as disconnected from road cars with plenty of their own silly regulations.

That's my point, quite a few are having a drive at the moment to reduce costs and as a result improve that connection.

They aren't improving the connection though, if anything they are making it worse.
Take rally for example ... until the impeding rule changes, we had Subaru competing, who used a drivetrain system and engine derived from their road cars. The new rules will not let them use their engine or their drivetrain layout - so they have been forced to leave.

Group A was great because it was heavily based on production cars and was just 1 step above Group N.

Super 2000 uses a stock gearbox, meaning that it does not allow for certain drivetrain layouts.


My view is that anything that is using cars that look like production versions should be Group A or N (other than GT race series which can carry on as they are) - then stuff that is not supposed to be production based, should not look like production cars and can use whatever rules they want.

[mat205125]

CK_N4S said:

UncappedTag said:

I'm not supprised. The Prius is outselling anything else in their range so PR on a F1 car is kinda wasted don't you think?

It's still a shame.

Plenty of PR in that though. Prius is running an energy recovery system which is the daily equivalent of the F1 KERS. Biggest PR letdown of that side is how Toyota did not manage to integrate the KERS effectively in their F1 car.

There is a massive opportunity for marketting, and product development by running a GT team, where the use of alternative fuels (and hybrids?) is embrassed

[mat205125]

http://homepage.virgin.net/shalco.com/tte_ban.htm

[The Wookie]

I thought Subaru pulled out of WRC for economical reasons?

There has to be a balance between cost and allowing innovation but encouraging performance equality.

To be honest, one could argue that rally reps like the Impreza or Evo are both a limited market and one that's actually borne out of rallying, and thus isn't really representative of 'normal' road cars. Perhaps both the series and vast majority of prospective manufacturer entrants would be benefit from encouraging boggo cars to be entered. It's a sacrifice.

I think the 2011 Toca regs however could strike the balance pretty well. By encouraging road car spec components to be used and specify a powertrain layout that's very common amongst mainstream manufacturers it should result in some good, even racing with more relevance at a lower cost. Obviously it's not perfect by excluding RWD and thus BMW, but again it's one of the sacrifices, although not one that's incurable.

Edited by The Wookie on Wednesday 4th November 15:31

[rypt]

The Wookie said:

I thought Subaru pulled out of WRC for economical reasons?

They would not have been able to compete next year anyway as they have no I4 engine to use, and the gearboxes will not take a boxer.

The Wookie said:

I think the 2011 Toca regs however could strike the balance pretty well. By encouraging road car spec components to be used and specify a powertrain layout that's very common amongst mainstream manufacturers should result in some good, even racing at a lower cost. Obviously it's not perfect by excluding RWD and thus BMW, but again it's one of the sacrifices, although not one that's incurable.

I disagree, it is a shocking move to remove RWD cars from the equation for no apparent reason
If they were to remove anything, they should have removed FWD and forced car companies to make a decent RWD car for once

Edited by rypt on Wednesday 4th November 15:33

[ettore]

Le Mans is the answer - proper international appeal in core markets and teh ACO will workl with them to promote hybrid/alternative technologies.

Would be nice to have another manufacturer there - in contrast to F1 Le Mans actively benefits from them.