RE: Video: Toyota F1 Exit Opens New Doors

[rypt]

ettore said:

Le Mans is the answer - proper international appeal in core markets and teh ACO will workl with them to promote hybrid/alternative technologies.

The same Le Mans that famously "banned" wankel engines due to them being better ...

[The Wookie]

rypt said:

I disagree, it is a shocking move to remove RWD cars from the equation for no apparent reason
If they were to remove anything, they should have removed FWD and forced car companies to make a decent RWD car for once

Edited by rypt on Wednesday 4th November 15:33

You say that there isn't a reason, but if you look at it analytically there clearly is, and it's an easily understandable performance equalisation method. I mean bloody hell, I race in a Toca support series and even I don't understand and can't be bothered to look up how the weight penalty and gridding system in the BTCC works. If you want to get more of the general public interested then it has to be easy to pick it up.

I agree that it's a mistake, and as I said one that's not unfixable, but what you're saying is ridiculous. You're talking about cutting costs and then suggesting that the vast majority of manufacturers should be developing whole new cars to suit motorsport regulations rather than the other way round?

Manufacturers should be able to use motorsport as a cost effective way to improve their products in line with customer expectations, not compromise them at great expense.

Edited by The Wookie on Wednesday 4th November 15:42

[The Wookie]

rypt said:

The Wookie said:

I thought Subaru pulled out of WRC for economical reasons?

They would not have been able to compete next year anyway as they have no I4 engine to use, and the gearboxes will not take a boxer.

Having just looked through the regs, that does seem pretty silly. There should at least be the option of a manufacturer to design their own gearbox housing with standard internals at their own expense.

[rypt]

And you are assuming that RWD cars would not sell as well as FWD ones, despite the extra costs being pretty minimal now-a-days.

There is no need for weight penalties, if RWD is faster than FWD, or if FWD is faster than RWD, then it is up to the "weaker" teams to improve their systems.
Weight penalties make it a mickey mouse race, one not based on the best car + driver combo.

[The Wookie]

rypt said:

And you are assuming that RWD cars would not sell as well as FWD ones, despite the extra costs being pretty minimal now-a-days.

There is no need for weight penalties, if RWD is faster than FWD, or if FWD is faster than RWD, then it is up to the "weaker" teams to improve their systems.
Weight penalties make it a mickey mouse race, one not based on the best car + driver combo.

The costs aren't pretty minimal to have RWD in a mass production vehicle, and it's not the only reason it's used. What do you think would happen if Ford came out with a Focus replacement that cost a grand or two more, had much less interior space, rear legroom and a smaller boot, and handled only fractionally differently to its FWD because it didn't have enough power to make use of the layout? Car enthusiasts might like the steering feel, but the vast majority of buyers would say '2 grand more? That's more expensive than a Golf, and a Golf has more space, and it's a VW so my neighbours would be more impressed and it'll probably be better put together'

Also, on that basis then, left to their own devices, we'd expect to see either FWD or RWD romping off every round, which would make for really interesting racing.

[rypt]

RWD does not cost 2 grand more though, RWD adds very little to a car's cost (if anything). Equally it does not reduce rear legroom for anything but the 5th passenger (and who carries 5 people anyway?).
Boot space is also not affected that much, as the diffs are not that large now.

How does an AWD Impreza cost the same or less than a FWD Corolla?

[Jasper Gilder]

When you think about it, it's hardly surprising. Toyota F1 has promised much but never won a Grand Prix, just like Ligier in days gone by, a really well financed team has it's doors blown off year after year so it's hardly surprising the top brass have said enough. Rallying could be a good route, as I don't suppose many people now remember them being chucked out of the WRC for cheating ( illegal modifications to wastegates - Ove Andersson put his hand up to it)

What should be worrying Bernie is that his dream of a manufacturer backed F1 is in tatters, with Honda, Toyota and BMW gone and Renault doing who knows what, we're left with Mercedes Benz and Ferrari - very 1950's - 1957-8 to be precise!!

Looks like a return to the days of the garagistes - like those up and coming new boys Lotus and maybe Aston Martin.

In the meantime - if Jarno Trulli is F1's most inconsistent driver ( The Trulli train...)I wonder who'll rise to the challenge of trying to motivate him for every lap of every race

[andymac]

Toyota should stick with WRC and Le mans / GT racing that is how I fondly remember their efforts.
F1 was a nightmare for them total waist of money.
If they wanted to complete properly in F1 the team should have been based in Britain or maybe Italy where F1 is based !!

[pvbaarsen]

sad to see them go, but it was obvious after the years of underachievement. I'll be amazed if we don't see them at Le Mans very soon. Only a puncture on Ukio Katayama's (remember him? ) car prevented victory and they want one bad.

Most worrying aspect of all of this though; where will our new hero Kobayashi go now???

[The Wookie]

rypt said:

RWD does not cost 2 grand more though, RWD adds very little to a car's cost (if anything). Equally it does not reduce rear legroom for anything but the 5th passenger (and who carries 5 people anyway?).
Boot space is also not affected that much, as the diffs are not that large now.

How does an AWD Impreza cost the same or less than a FWD Corolla?

Why does a Hyundai i30 cost less than a Focus? Driveline isn't the only thing that defines vehicle cost, I expect Toyota would have spent their money on build quality and fuel consumption. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that AWD on the base spec Impreza is actually cost cutting in the form of not having to develop and build two drivelines because of a sales strategy based on the margins of the premium models.

And your opnion is an emotive point of view from an enthusiast. The average billy DOES want 5 seats even if they'll probably hardly ever use it, people DO want a spare wheel as well as a big boot.

[Super Ted]

I can understand why they have pulled out of F1, but what has happened to Toyota as a company? They must now make the most boring cars in the world. They used to have the Celica and MR2, now they have nothing in their line-up to offer any sporting interest.

[patmahe]

Super Ted said:

I can understand why they have pulled out of F1, but what has happened to Toyota as a company? They must now make the most boring cars in the world. They used to have the Celica and MR2, now they have nothing in their line-up to offer any sporting interest.

I was just thinking about this the other day. Out of their current range, they Aygo is my favourite and I really think they are missing a trick by not popping a 1.4 turbo with maybe 100-120bhp into one. Great little cars by all accounts and in my opinion quite nice looking especially compared to some of the bloated 'small cars' we have now.

I think its biggest problem would be the Renaulsport Twingo and the Panda 100hp, but why not give it a try and put Toyota back on the enthusiast's map. I'd certainly be interested and I'd wager so would many on here. Anyway sorry about the rambling post

[UncappedTag]

Super Ted said:

I can understand why they have pulled out of F1, but what has happened to Toyota as a company? They must now make the most boring cars in the world. They used to have the Celica and MR2, now they have nothing in their line-up to offer any sporting interest.

Lexus IS-F
Lexus LA-A

[rypt]

UncappedTag said:

Super Ted said:

I can understand why they have pulled out of F1, but what has happened to Toyota as a company? They must now make the most boring cars in the world. They used to have the Celica and MR2, now they have nothing in their line-up to offer any sporting interest.

Lexus IS-F
Lexus LA-A

Silly money though

[marcosgt]

Actually, for a quick return the LF-A all of a sudden looks to make some sense.

It's already a race proven (if not particularly successful) car and would give the Lexus brand some much needed motorsports credibility to help shift IS-Fs (and the 22OD...)

My guess? Assuming they can get it into GT1, would be the new GT1 world championship.

earlier said:

The same Le Mans that famously "banned" wankel engines due to them being better ...

This is often stated, but it wasn't the case. Sure the Mazda won, but it wasn't all down to a 'better' engine - Best sounding maybe The reason it was outlawed was because of the insane decision (mainly to line Bernie Ecclestone's bank vault further) to force Group C cars to use 3.5 litre engines...

M.

Edited by marcosgt on Wednesday 4th November 17:21

[rypt]

Whatever the reason, they still banned it.
So I'm not sure how the whole "Le Mans with alternative powertrains" would work, given how they have no problem banning alternative powertrains.

[havoc]

vz-r_dave said:

castex said:

Dr G said:

Having always rather enjoyed the reliability of Toyota's mishaps, I now feel absolutely terrible about the whole thing.

It's seeing pictures like this that make you realise that even those at the top are true petrol heads and not just in it for the money.

Very sad picture.

I think a significant part of it is the culture out there - (most) CEO's still actually take personal responsibility for the company, and consequently failures are both embarassing and upsetting to them.

There's a lot to admire about the Japanese...

[TWIN TUBI]

Dr G said:

Not 'if' Toyota return to competition, when:



"Tadashi Yamanashi, Chairman of Toyota Motorsport, sheds a tear during a press conference at Toyota's head office in Tokyo, to announce their withdrawal from Formula One racing"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/p...

Thank you Toyota F1 for your great era of Formula 1 racing.





2002-2009

[ettore]

rypt said:

Whatever the reason, they still banned it.
So I'm not sure how the whole "Le Mans with alternative powertrains" would work, given how they have no problem banning alternative powertrains.

Well since it's now the ACO's stated aim to encourage exactly that, the fact that the dreaded Derv's have been introduced and teh fact that Le Mans, for the first time in years, could become the "acceptable" face of motor racing.

[rypt]

ettore said:

rypt said:

Whatever the reason, they still banned it.
So I'm not sure how the whole "Le Mans with alternative powertrains" would work, given how they have no problem banning alternative powertrains.

Well since it's now the ACO's stated aim to encourage exactly that, the fact that the dreaded Derv's have been introduced and teh fact that Le Mans, for the first time in years, could become the "acceptable" face of motor racing.

It is the stated aim of F1 to cut costs, and yet they are hiking the fees they charge venues.

Stated aims are rarely what is implemented