RE: First Pics: Arash AF-10 supercar
Discussion
skwdenyer said:
dandarez said:
P7ULG said:
RTH said:
Fresh_Clip said:
.......If this bloke has got money to burn, why oh why doesn't he just build a really decent, simple, lightweight sports car? Something similar to an Elise with an affordable price tag.
Spot on , that is just what is needed now.Road version of this could be interesting... especially if price rumour is right.
The Arash makes me sad because it is such a waste. Clearly the guy is passionate, monied and motivated. But a bad Enzo clone with a US lump in it is lazy and irrelevant nonsense. There are surely better projects to throw his money at.
By all means have the car made for personal use, but to launch the car to a fanfare in the press when all we have are some poor CGI and some rough pics on an Internet forum of some car in a garage, is not good enough. He should lock the car away and keep quiet until it is finished.
Why? Because this is real. Ginetta has 26 O-R-D-E-R-S in hand for this "beadstead"> Your best mate Arash has NO orders and NO car! How is that a convincing business model? While we're on the subject, what is the business model of our man Arash? Let's have a go at summing it up.
First, get your mate from the local poly technic to come up with a computer rendering of a car. Too easy.
Second, have a go at building it after a couple of aborted, previous attempts.
Third, come up with a half built prototype and nominate a sky high price for the "eventual" production version.
Fourth, take half built prototype around a few shows to try and hype some orders in from some mythical well heeled types who share your vision and are prepared to pay half a million quid for a car that may never exist outside your dreamy schoolboy mind.
Fifth, Announce imminent production of the car but the spec has changed to include less exotic materials and a yank crate motor mated to a used Porsche transmission.
Sixth, have a press conference/launch and invite lots of motoring journalists.
Seventh, make lots of excuses as the car misbehaves/blows up/catches fire at the press launch.
Eighth, announce bankruptcy/name change after fleecing a few idiots of their deposits.
So, in summary, it looks more like a way to lose money and create a tax dodge than actually forward the concept of the sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooper car.
Alternatively, you can do what Ginetta has done. Spend a lifetime developing affordable, lightweight sportscars, build up a superb reputation amongst your clients, deliver on your promises and reap the O-R-D-E-R-S which make the whole thing into a sustainable business model.
Looks like a no brainer.
But heyyyy, that sort of stuff takes time and commitment and I won't be able to put "Veyron beater" in my hokey press release and walk around in cool sunglasses and bonk my receptionist....
First, get your mate from the local poly technic to come up with a computer rendering of a car. Too easy.
Second, have a go at building it after a couple of aborted, previous attempts.
Third, come up with a half built prototype and nominate a sky high price for the "eventual" production version.
Fourth, take half built prototype around a few shows to try and hype some orders in from some mythical well heeled types who share your vision and are prepared to pay half a million quid for a car that may never exist outside your dreamy schoolboy mind.
Fifth, Announce imminent production of the car but the spec has changed to include less exotic materials and a yank crate motor mated to a used Porsche transmission.
Sixth, have a press conference/launch and invite lots of motoring journalists.
Seventh, make lots of excuses as the car misbehaves/blows up/catches fire at the press launch.
Eighth, announce bankruptcy/name change after fleecing a few idiots of their deposits.
So, in summary, it looks more like a way to lose money and create a tax dodge than actually forward the concept of the sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooper car.
Alternatively, you can do what Ginetta has done. Spend a lifetime developing affordable, lightweight sportscars, build up a superb reputation amongst your clients, deliver on your promises and reap the O-R-D-E-R-S which make the whole thing into a sustainable business model.
Looks like a no brainer.
But heyyyy, that sort of stuff takes time and commitment and I won't be able to put "Veyron beater" in my hokey press release and walk around in cool sunglasses and bonk my receptionist....
skwdenyer said:
Gompo said:
E36GUY said:
Mr oh so quick to judge might want to click this for some non-cgi photos.
http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/News/Search-Results/F...
I hope it's a fantastic car, but in this pic it looks very awkward and underwheeled:http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/News/Search-Results/F...
toppstuff said:
skwdenyer said:
dandarez said:
P7ULG said:
RTH said:
Fresh_Clip said:
.......If this bloke has got money to burn, why oh why doesn't he just build a really decent, simple, lightweight sports car? Something similar to an Elise with an affordable price tag.
Spot on , that is just what is needed now.Road version of this could be interesting... especially if price rumour is right.
The Arash makes me sad because it is such a waste. Clearly the guy is passionate, monied and motivated. But a bad Enzo clone with a US lump in it is lazy and irrelevant nonsense. There are surely better projects to throw his money at.
By all means have the car made for personal use, but to launch the car to a fanfare in the press when all we have are some poor CGI and some rough pics on an Internet forum of some car in a garage, is not good enough. He should lock the car away and keep quiet until it is finished.
I have absolutely no beef whatsoever with Ginetta: they produce a small number of cars using low-cost tooling that people actually want to buy. My problem is with anybody else who believes that that Ginetta and an Elise are similar propositions; clearly they are not, even if they appeal to overlapping sets of people.
Arash is not "my mate", and I really don't understand where you get the idea that I'm defending him from! I don't like the new car (I was horrified, in fact); I didn't like the GTS (and, hence, I agreed with his decision to pass it on to others); I like that he is passionate, and it is convenient that he has money, but it is a shame (for me) that those things are not producing cars I would like to buy.
I agree wholeheartedly with the suggestion that "something like an Elise" is the way to go; in fact, something far smarter than an Elise would be great, but just something equal to an Elise would be a good start.
To be clear: if I want to buy a tough, honest, simple car then I'll consider the Ginetta as a fine example of the breed. If I want a forward-thinking, technologically-interesting and genuinely ground-breaking vehicle then I'll consider the Elise. If I just want to have fun I'll consider both on their own merits.
As for Arash, I think that he ought to take a leaf out of the book of, say, the reborn-in-Monaco Venturi company with their Fetish and use his wealth and (alleged) access to customers to sell a simple-yet-advanced proposition engineered by the best sub-contracted minds available.
Fresh_Clip said:
Why? Because this is real. Ginetta has 26 O-R-D-E-R-S in hand for this "beadstead"> Your best mate Arash has NO orders and NO car! How is that a convincing business model? While we're on the subject, what is the business model of our man Arash? Let's have a go at summing it up.
First, get your mate from the local poly technic to come up with a computer rendering of a car. Too easy.
Second, have a go at building it after a couple of aborted, previous attempts.
Third, come up with a half built prototype and nominate a sky high price for the "eventual" production version.
Fourth, take half built prototype around a few shows to try and hype some orders in from some mythical well heeled types who share your vision and are prepared to pay half a million quid for a car that may never exist outside your dreamy schoolboy mind.
Fifth, Announce imminent production of the car but the spec has changed to include less exotic materials and a yank crate motor mated to a used Porsche transmission.
Sixth, have a press conference/launch and invite lots of motoring journalists.
Seventh, make lots of excuses as the car misbehaves/blows up/catches fire at the press launch.
Eighth, announce bankruptcy/name change after fleecing a few idiots of their deposits.
So, in summary, it looks more like a way to lose money and create a tax dodge than actually forward the concept of the sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooper car.
Alternatively, you can do what Ginetta has done. Spend a lifetime developing affordable, lightweight sportscars, build up a superb reputation amongst your clients, deliver on your promises and reap the O-R-D-E-R-S which make the whole thing into a sustainable business model.
Looks like a no brainer.
But heyyyy, that sort of stuff takes time and commitment and I won't be able to put "Veyron beater" in my hokey press release and walk around in cool sunglasses and bonk my receptionist....
Before making quite the comparisons that you have done, you might want to look at Ginetta's financial history...First, get your mate from the local poly technic to come up with a computer rendering of a car. Too easy.
Second, have a go at building it after a couple of aborted, previous attempts.
Third, come up with a half built prototype and nominate a sky high price for the "eventual" production version.
Fourth, take half built prototype around a few shows to try and hype some orders in from some mythical well heeled types who share your vision and are prepared to pay half a million quid for a car that may never exist outside your dreamy schoolboy mind.
Fifth, Announce imminent production of the car but the spec has changed to include less exotic materials and a yank crate motor mated to a used Porsche transmission.
Sixth, have a press conference/launch and invite lots of motoring journalists.
Seventh, make lots of excuses as the car misbehaves/blows up/catches fire at the press launch.
Eighth, announce bankruptcy/name change after fleecing a few idiots of their deposits.
So, in summary, it looks more like a way to lose money and create a tax dodge than actually forward the concept of the sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooper car.
Alternatively, you can do what Ginetta has done. Spend a lifetime developing affordable, lightweight sportscars, build up a superb reputation amongst your clients, deliver on your promises and reap the O-R-D-E-R-S which make the whole thing into a sustainable business model.
Looks like a no brainer.
But heyyyy, that sort of stuff takes time and commitment and I won't be able to put "Veyron beater" in my hokey press release and walk around in cool sunglasses and bonk my receptionist....
skwdenyer said:
toppstuff said:
skwdenyer said:
dandarez said:
P7ULG said:
RTH said:
Fresh_Clip said:
.......If this bloke has got money to burn, why oh why doesn't he just build a really decent, simple, lightweight sports car? Something similar to an Elise with an affordable price tag.
Spot on , that is just what is needed now.Road version of this could be interesting... especially if price rumour is right.
And I agree with your analysis of the Arash. This latest car is horrific. It is indeed a shame that his motivations are not guided toward more worthy projects if he is serious about creating and selling cars to people other than himself..
That is frankly an ignorant comment. Ginetta have both a very old and succesful pedigree of making tough as nails, successful motorsport cars as well as a successful business providing entire grids of cars for competitive racing right now. I for one will be very interested to see what they do next.
The Arash makes me sad because it is such a waste. Clearly the guy is passionate, monied and motivated. But a bad Enzo clone with a US lump in it is lazy and irrelevant nonsense. There are surely better projects to throw his money at.
By all means have the car made for personal use, but to launch the car to a fanfare in the press when all we have are some poor CGI and some rough pics on an Internet forum of some car in a garage, is not good enough. He should lock the car away and keep quiet until it is finished.
I have absolutely no beef whatsoever with Ginetta: they produce a small number of cars using low-cost tooling that people actually want to buy. My problem is with anybody else who believes that that Ginetta and an Elise are similar propositions; clearly they are not, even if they appeal to overlapping sets of people.
Arash is not "my mate", and I really don't understand where you get the idea that I'm defending him from! I don't like the new car (I was horrified, in fact); I didn't like the GTS (and, hence, I agreed with his decision to pass it on to others); I like that he is passionate, and it is convenient that he has money, but it is a shame (for me) that those things are not producing cars I would like to buy.
I agree wholeheartedly with the suggestion that "something like an Elise" is the way to go; in fact, something far smarter than an Elise would be great, but just something equal to an Elise would be a good start.
To be clear: if I want to buy a tough, honest, simple car then I'll consider the Ginetta as a fine example of the breed. If I want a forward-thinking, technologically-interesting and genuinely ground-breaking vehicle then I'll consider the Elise. If I just want to have fun I'll consider both on their own merits.
As for Arash, I think that he ought to take a leaf out of the book of, say, the reborn-in-Monaco Venturi company with their Fetish and use his wealth and (alleged) access to customers to sell a simple-yet-advanced proposition engineered by the best sub-contracted minds available.
We are now actually short of small light attractive great to drive nice quality everyday driver sportscars at below £20,000.
The much maligned MGF (...by people who had never owned or driven one ) actually sold 25,000 cars every year that is 500 cars every week was the biggest selling sportscar and outsold the MX5 in the UK at its peak.
OK it was in some respects, outdated when it launched and that is some 15 years ago , times are changed everything has moved on.
Lightweight is now more important than ever. We now need sub 900kg cars to give performance, handling and fuel economy/low emissions.
There seem to be no shortage of people trying to launch their own supercars at £50,000 - 400,000, doomed to commercial failure before they start because there is no long term sustainable market for cars of that type with no pedigree.
There is a market for the £20,000 sportscar but that would take clever thinking in terms of design, materials, methods, production and marketing.
The much maligned MGF (...by people who had never owned or driven one ) actually sold 25,000 cars every year that is 500 cars every week was the biggest selling sportscar and outsold the MX5 in the UK at its peak.
OK it was in some respects, outdated when it launched and that is some 15 years ago , times are changed everything has moved on.
Lightweight is now more important than ever. We now need sub 900kg cars to give performance, handling and fuel economy/low emissions.
There seem to be no shortage of people trying to launch their own supercars at £50,000 - 400,000, doomed to commercial failure before they start because there is no long term sustainable market for cars of that type with no pedigree.
There is a market for the £20,000 sportscar but that would take clever thinking in terms of design, materials, methods, production and marketing.
RTH said:
We are now actually short of small light attractive great to drive nice quality everyday driver sportscars at below £20,000.
The much maligned MGF (...by people who had never owned or driven one ) actually sold 25,000 cars every year that is 500 cars every week was the biggest selling sportscar and outsold the MX5 in the UK at its peak.
OK it was in some respects, outdated when it launched and that is some 15 years ago , times are changed everything has moved on.
Lightweight is now more important than ever. We now need sub 900kg cars to give performance, handling and fuel economy/low emissions.
There seem to be no shortage of people trying to launch their own supercars at £50,000 - 400,000, doomed to commercial failure before they start because there is no long term sustainable market for cars of that type with no pedigree.
There is a market for the £20,000 sportscar but that would take clever thinking in terms of design, materials, methods, production and marketing.
The much maligned MGF (...by people who had never owned or driven one ) actually sold 25,000 cars every year that is 500 cars every week was the biggest selling sportscar and outsold the MX5 in the UK at its peak.
OK it was in some respects, outdated when it launched and that is some 15 years ago , times are changed everything has moved on.
Lightweight is now more important than ever. We now need sub 900kg cars to give performance, handling and fuel economy/low emissions.
There seem to be no shortage of people trying to launch their own supercars at £50,000 - 400,000, doomed to commercial failure before they start because there is no long term sustainable market for cars of that type with no pedigree.
There is a market for the £20,000 sportscar but that would take clever thinking in terms of design, materials, methods, production and marketing.
But prospective protagonists ought to look at, say, the history of Strathcarron to see how it can go quite badly wrong.Sorry about the "your mate" crack, over here in Oz it's said with the tongue firmly in the cheek! I may have painted a rosy picture of Ginetta, they have, as most small car manufacturers have, had a rough time in the past. You can't argue with the position they find themselves in at the moment however. Having said that, there is no doubt that if you're determined to go bankrupt in the smallest possible amount of time, the best way to do it is to build sports cars! In addition to that I'd say that a formula could be developed to show that the higher the top speed of the sports car in question, the faster insolvency will be achieved 
WorldCarFans article said:
In an interview with Autocar, Arash Farboud said "The engine is a bit of a bruiser. It doesn't have to be too sophisticated, as long as we can keep it cool and as (long as) we have got more power than anyone else then I'm happy."
Chavvy rude-boy with too much cash.Beefmeister said:
WorldCarFans article said:
In an interview with Autocar, Arash Farboud said "The engine is a bit of a bruiser. It doesn't have to be too sophisticated, as long as we can keep it cool and as (long as) we have got more power than anyone else then I'm happy."
Chavvy rude-boy with too much cash.Will it be fair to assume that a wind tunnel wasn't used?
RTH said:
There is a market for the £20,000 sportscar but that would take clever thinking in terms of design, materials, methods, production and marketing.
I am sure there is but to make a car that cheap requires massive numbers to be produced and sold.If you take your £20k deduct the VAT, deduct the transportation costs, the dealers margin, the production cost, the manufacturers margin is so small you just wouldn't bother.
Mazda can do it as they sell huge numbers and have an existing parts bin to raid.
MG seem to be struggling.
Frik said:
M400 NBL said:
Will it be fair to assume that a wind tunnel wasn't used?
When is it? A full scale wind tunnel costs a few grand per day, low volume manufacturers use them very sparingly indeed.A chap with millions probably spends (wastes) thousands a day anyway, so why not on developing his car?
Maybe the guy that knows Arash better than most can confirm whether or not any kind of wind tunnel testing has been used, possibly digitally using CAD.
The point that I am trying to make is that, assuming Ferrari did extensive wind tunnel testing on their Enzo, they will not be happy if somebody makes a car with very similar lines. Even if to the experts the lines are different enough, a potential buyer of a (roughly at today's value) million pound Enzo may be tempted by a cheaper look-a-like.
odyssey2200 said:
RTH said:
There is a market for the £20,000 sportscar but that would take clever thinking in terms of design, materials, methods, production and marketing.
I am sure there is but to make a car that cheap requires massive numbers to be produced and sold.If you take your £20k deduct the VAT, deduct the transportation costs, the dealers margin, the production cost, the manufacturers margin is so small you just wouldn't bother.
Mazda can do it as they sell huge numbers and have an existing parts bin to raid.
MG seem to be struggling.
An all new small MG sports car is due to launch in the next 12 months.
A small start up maker, yes would have to use drive train, suspension items electrics etc etc from the big car companies Caterham and Westfield etc have done all this for many decades. A small enclosed practical, lively good handling, light sports car that looked as good as a Ferrari at £20,000 with running costs comparable to a hatchback would have people beat a path to their door , even today.
It seems to be ego driving these men to make huge 500BHP supercars which just don't sell.
Even the Pagani Zonda a very attractive and acclaimed car established now over 10 years only sells 12 cars a year worldwide.
It is such a pity the efforts are wasted on cars with no market, instead of aiming a little lower.
VML said:
I have a few clients 'interested' in this car, so a phone call to Arash happened. Now, he said all the right things, warranty is pretty much unlimited, and it should have the kind of service you get with the Veyron, however, whilst the initial asking price is alot, he feels it 'should hold its value'. Honestly, I am not so sure.
My clients did not get into the position they are in today by loosing money, so it has to be a reasonable investment, or a lucky gamble, this car I feel would be a gamble, but mabye, JUST mabye, one worth taking.
Arash is a very nice guy who knows many people in the car industry so I wouldnt be so quick to write him off, afterall, did we all succeed our challenges first time round? Time will tell with this car, I think all it needs is 150K off the initial price to be a dead cert, but that is not likley, so a gamble is what it is, that is what I will be advising my clients... It is their money.
Regards
VML
Jesus, are your clients thick or what?My clients did not get into the position they are in today by loosing money, so it has to be a reasonable investment, or a lucky gamble, this car I feel would be a gamble, but mabye, JUST mabye, one worth taking.
Arash is a very nice guy who knows many people in the car industry so I wouldnt be so quick to write him off, afterall, did we all succeed our challenges first time round? Time will tell with this car, I think all it needs is 150K off the initial price to be a dead cert, but that is not likley, so a gamble is what it is, that is what I will be advising my clients... It is their money.
Regards
VML
What you posted there sounds like a lesson in the bleedin' obvious. Do people pay for that?
Apropos first time challenges, Mr Farboud is on about his third time around that I'm aware of. And all he seems to excel at is not making dodgy clones of existing supercars, and talking the talk.
People simply won't pay 150K for a rookie car. They just won't.
GregE240 said:
VML said:
I have a few clients 'interested' in this car, so a phone call to Arash happened. Now, he said all the right things, warranty is pretty much unlimited, and it should have the kind of service you get with the Veyron, however, whilst the initial asking price is alot, he feels it 'should hold its value'. Honestly, I am not so sure.
My clients did not get into the position they are in today by loosing money, so it has to be a reasonable investment, or a lucky gamble, this car I feel would be a gamble, but mabye, JUST mabye, one worth taking.
Arash is a very nice guy who knows many people in the car industry so I wouldnt be so quick to write him off, afterall, did we all succeed our challenges first time round? Time will tell with this car, I think all it needs is 150K off the initial price to be a dead cert, but that is not likley, so a gamble is what it is, that is what I will be advising my clients... It is their money.
Regards
VML
Jesus, are your clients thick or what?My clients did not get into the position they are in today by loosing money, so it has to be a reasonable investment, or a lucky gamble, this car I feel would be a gamble, but mabye, JUST mabye, one worth taking.
Arash is a very nice guy who knows many people in the car industry so I wouldnt be so quick to write him off, afterall, did we all succeed our challenges first time round? Time will tell with this car, I think all it needs is 150K off the initial price to be a dead cert, but that is not likley, so a gamble is what it is, that is what I will be advising my clients... It is their money.
Regards
VML
What you posted there sounds like a lesson in the bleedin' obvious. Do people pay for that?
Apropos first time challenges, Mr Farboud is on about his third time around that I'm aware of. And all he seems to excel at is not making dodgy clones of existing supercars, and talking the talk.
People simply won't pay 150K for a rookie car. They just won't.
I am not for one minute suggesting that Arash was talking the talk and spinning a yarn.
Maybe, as a demonstration of faith in his product, Arash could offer customers a full money back guarantee if they're not completely satisfied with their Arash AF-10 Supercar. That way he could move some units to the well heeled customers he appears to have salivating at the idea of owning one of his superior motors. If all the claims he's made about the car are true he's running absolutely no risk! 
Do you notice the 'interested' rather than the INTERESTED!!! Interest is just them asking me to find out if it is going to be a good car, if a car at all. These people move on a whim. Like I said, make the car £150k and deliver a car that lives up to his claims, then yes, it is great value, carbon tub, 220mph+, great. If it is anything less than his claims, then no, it is a waste of time.
And to answer your first question, one would hope the positions they find themselves in are not occupied by people who are 'thick' and secondly yes, it pays the bills...
VML
What you posted there sounds like a lesson in the bleedin' obvious. Do people pay for that?
Apropos first time challenges, Mr Farboud is on about his third time around that I'm aware of. And all he seems to excel at is not making dodgy clones of existing supercars, and talking the talk.
People simply won't pay 150K for a rookie car. They just won't.
And to answer your first question, one would hope the positions they find themselves in are not occupied by people who are 'thick' and secondly yes, it pays the bills...
VML
GregE240 said:
VML said:
I have a few clients 'interested' in this car, so a phone call to Arash happened. Now, he said all the right things, warranty is pretty much unlimited, and it should have the kind of service you get with the Veyron, however, whilst the initial asking price is alot, he feels it 'should hold its value'. Honestly, I am not so sure.
My clients did not get into the position they are in today by loosing money, so it has to be a reasonable investment, or a lucky gamble, this car I feel would be a gamble, but mabye, JUST mabye, one worth taking.
Arash is a very nice guy who knows many people in the car industry so I wouldnt be so quick to write him off, afterall, did we all succeed our challenges first time round? Time will tell with this car, I think all it needs is 150K off the initial price to be a dead cert, but that is not likley, so a gamble is what it is, that is what I will be advising my clients... It is their money.
Regards
VML
Jesus, are your clients thick or what?My clients did not get into the position they are in today by loosing money, so it has to be a reasonable investment, or a lucky gamble, this car I feel would be a gamble, but mabye, JUST mabye, one worth taking.
Arash is a very nice guy who knows many people in the car industry so I wouldnt be so quick to write him off, afterall, did we all succeed our challenges first time round? Time will tell with this car, I think all it needs is 150K off the initial price to be a dead cert, but that is not likley, so a gamble is what it is, that is what I will be advising my clients... It is their money.
Regards
VML
What you posted there sounds like a lesson in the bleedin' obvious. Do people pay for that?
Apropos first time challenges, Mr Farboud is on about his third time around that I'm aware of. And all he seems to excel at is not making dodgy clones of existing supercars, and talking the talk.
People simply won't pay 150K for a rookie car. They just won't.
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