RE: Mini Crossman SUV Sketches Leak Out

[toppstuff]

Robert060379 said:

Front wheel drive BMW that isn't a marketing ploy? If the car wasn't called Mini then they couldn't sell it for 20% more than it's worth so it would be better value and therefore a better car. Interesting? The car would have to be a lot better to measure up to the market without the name, so it would be a better car. Taking that into consideration the current Mini by another name wouldn't be as good (slower, heavier, thurstier, more prone to understeer) or sell as well as the rest of the hot hatches so it wouldn't be an issue of the name but the fact the isn't as good as the competition.

What rubbish. Makes no sense at all.

The BMW Mini has been a spectacular success story and all employing lots of people in Oxford , so its been a success for the UK as well.

Having actually owned a couple of them over the years, I have to say they are excellent cars and easily the best in class.

They are better than the competition. I have had a Cooper and a Cooper S in the household ( the Mrs had one too ) and there really is little to criticise. They drive well, handle beautifully, have terrific resale value and the dealers are good. Definitely best in class.

I really don't understand what the name has to do with it fella, but it seems to be an issue for you. I don't think it matters whether BMW called them "Mini" or "Spam", they would still have charged a premium for them. And quite right too, if they can charge more and people will pay, then good for them.

[mikEsprit]

toppstuff said:

fluffyducky said:

OMG a Mini story, quick:

• Its too big, yadda yadda yadda...

• Isyogiioniiisssss will be turning rhubarb rhubarb

• Its no longer british yadda yadda

• Its not small and cramped like the original yadda yadda.....

• The engine is too good moan moan moan

• It doesn't rust moan moan moan

• Its not a mini, when was their ever a 4x4 mini moan moan moan

JEEEEEEZ - The old mini is dead, was old and near the end way way way behind the times. Leave it alone people. This is the new mini, not the old one, so it can be reinterpreted as they want. Just call it a BMW and stop bloody moaning!!!! We no longer ride to work on horses, but get pulled by horsepower - PROGRESS!

AAAAAAAAAAARRRRGH!

Rant over.

I think it will be cool, will sell like hot cakes and make good business sense. Well done BMW for making cars people will buy.

Abso-bloody-lutely ! Hurrah ! Could not agree more.

There is some spectacular moaning on PH these days with something of a sheep-like mentality.

I cannot think of ANY small, 4x4, rugged little car on the market that is currently desirable. Any small 4x4 offering is invariably some Japanese thing from Suzuki or Daihatsu. Yet there must be a market for a chunky, funky, 4x4 that is a size down from a Freelander, RAV4 etc...

Bravo Mini for making this car. It has no obvious competitors. It should do well.

I have no particular reverence for Minis. I think they look fun and are attractive. If they want to make different versions with a similar theme, more power to them. Everyone else sure does.

[dandarez]

Mini1275 said:

Martin_Hx said:

pbirkett said:

Crap.

They're really milking this brand now. Its not really a Mini any more is it (even the normal one is pushing it IMO).

Agreed

Also agreed, don't get me started on BMW MINI

Oh bloody dear oh bloody dear, is that all 'old' Mini enthusiasts can do now on here? Just itching and hovering over the keyboard waiting, waiting and waiting to pounce on the keys as soon as another variation or thread appears on MINI and dive in and slate it.

MINI Plant Oxford is on a wave and nothing will stop them - at least they know how to run a business, and it's giving good employment again here in Cowley. I realise you all hate it, but you, but nobody, will prevent it.

Come on here in another year and try slating the new Roadster and new Coupe coming as they sell like hot cakes. You lot wanna get behind the wheel of a new JCW - I had no love of Beemers, followed the blind, like you, that instant 'can't stand them, but never driven one'. Then I tried one. Then I tried the JCW... it's a f....... HOOOT!!!
Can't wait to get a 250 bhp JCW Coupe.

The 'Mini' was of it's time, just as this MINI is of it's time.

[Twincam16]

Parrot of Doom said:

Sickens me slightly that it takes a German company to be so successful with what should be a British product.

It's pathetic.

Sickens me that they can take such liberties with what is, in essence, a concept rather than a mere 'brand'.

'Mini' was chosen by Issigonis as a word common to both 'miniature' and 'minimalist', to sum up the concept of what all Minis should be. What they really should be doing is competing in the Aygo/IQ market, trying to 'out-small' each other with increasingly clever packaging. Do a 'Moke'-style version by all means, but at least make it small.

Continuing with this name on cars like this makes as much sense as renaming the Daihatsu Charade 'HMS Enormous' or something.

[Ozzie Osmond]

Twincam16 said:

Continuing with this name on cars like this makes as much sense as renaming the Daihatsu Charade 'HMS Enormous' or something.

There was a time when Golf was the smallest VW hatchback

Then Golf grew and they had to put the Polo underneath it; and then they both grew and VW added the Lupo.

There was a time when 3-series was the smallest BMW

Then the 3 grew to the size of a 5 and the 5 grew to the size of a 7 and they had to introduce the new 1-series.

[dandarez]

Wonder if we wound the clock forward and Alec had been born today?

Like he really was, in Turkey - his father being a Greek, with British subject nationality, then Alec came here to these shores now in his late teens to settle here.

You Mini fans would probably be yelling for him to be sent back!

[Twincam16]

Ozzie Osmond said:

Twincam16 said:

Continuing with this name on cars like this makes as much sense as renaming the Daihatsu Charade 'HMS Enormous' or something.

There was a time when Golf was the smallest VW hatchback

Then Golf grew and they had to put the Polo underneath it; and then they both grew and VW added the Lupo.

There was a time when 3-series was the smallest BMW

Then the 3 grew to the size of a 5 and the 5 grew to the size of a 7 and they had to introduce the new 1-series.

Precisely.

So where's the new 'small' Mini?

I could accept the MINI if it was a kind of successor to the 1100/1300, or even the Landcrab, but at the moment it's just a fairly average hatchback in a very large and competitive sector that has managed to chain itself to the vaguries of 'noughties' fashion fads. We're in a new decade now, fashions are beginning to change, the properly-small Fiat 500 is beginning to eat into its market, and BMW can only respond with an SUV - a class of car that is becoming about as popular as Ian Brady.

[dandarez]

Twincam16 said:

Ozzie Osmond said:

Twincam16 said:

Continuing with this name on cars like this makes as much sense as renaming the Daihatsu Charade 'HMS Enormous' or something.

There was a time when Golf was the smallest VW hatchback

Then Golf grew and they had to put the Polo underneath it; and then they both grew and VW added the Lupo.

There was a time when 3-series was the smallest BMW

Then the 3 grew to the size of a 5 and the 5 grew to the size of a 7 and they had to introduce the new 1-series.

Precisely.

So where's the new 'small' Mini?

I could accept the MINI if it was a kind of successor to the 1100/1300, or even the Landcrab, but at the moment it's just a fairly average hatchback in a very large and competitive sector that has managed to chain itself to the vaguries of 'noughties' fashion fads. We're in a new decade now, fashions are beginning to change, the properly-small Fiat 500 is beginning to eat into its market, and BMW can only respond with an SUV - a class of car that is becoming about as popular as Ian Brady.

Fiat 500 is beginning to eat into its market?!! That is absolutely laughable. You need to look at MINI sales figures my friend!!
BMW are not just responding with the SUV. Haven't you heard? The Roadster and Coupe are being built at Cowley, on sale in OCTOBER, as I mentioned above.(and just for info the new decade doesn't start until the end of this year Dec 2010 - 10 years can't end at the end of 09, it ends at completion of 10 -fools, they all got it wrong but can't admit to it!).

[Twincam16]

dandarez said:

Twincam16 said:

Ozzie Osmond said:

Twincam16 said:

Continuing with this name on cars like this makes as much sense as renaming the Daihatsu Charade 'HMS Enormous' or something.

There was a time when Golf was the smallest VW hatchback

Then Golf grew and they had to put the Polo underneath it; and then they both grew and VW added the Lupo.

There was a time when 3-series was the smallest BMW

Then the 3 grew to the size of a 5 and the 5 grew to the size of a 7 and they had to introduce the new 1-series.

Precisely.

So where's the new 'small' Mini?

I could accept the MINI if it was a kind of successor to the 1100/1300, or even the Landcrab, but at the moment it's just a fairly average hatchback in a very large and competitive sector that has managed to chain itself to the vaguries of 'noughties' fashion fads. We're in a new decade now, fashions are beginning to change, the properly-small Fiat 500 is beginning to eat into its market, and BMW can only respond with an SUV - a class of car that is becoming about as popular as Ian Brady.

Fiat 500 is beginning to eat into its market?!! That is absolutely laughable. You need to look at MINI sales figures my friend!!
BMW are not just responding with the SUV. Haven't you heard? The Roadster and Coupe are being built at Cowley, on sale in OCTOBER, as I mentioned above.(and just for info the new decade doesn't start until the end of this year Dec 2010 - 10 years can't end at the end of 09, it ends at completion of 10 -fools, they all got it wrong but can't admit to it!).

http://europeanmotornews.com/2009/11/05/fiat-500-breaks-into-uk-top-10-sales-figures-for-first-time/

http://theswitchback.com/news/sales-down-mini-uk-a...

It's selling well, but not as well as it was, and if you're a bit more hand up than you were and looking for a 'retro' small car, the 500 is perfect. It's also smaller on the outside whilst offering similar interior space, and uses less fuel.

It's like most fashion accessories - when it's cool it's very popular, but when it falls out of favour, it plummets.

MINI needs some substance to add to all the fashion appeal if it is to do as well over the coming years.

[900T-R]

Twincam16 said:

Precisely.

So where's the new 'small' Mini?

I could accept the MINI if it was a kind of successor to the 1100/1300, or even the Landcrab, but at the moment it's just a fairly average hatchback in a very large and competitive sector that has managed to chain itself to the vaguries of 'noughties' fashion fads. We're in a new decade now, fashions are beginning to change, the properly-small Fiat 500 is beginning to eat into its market, and BMW can only respond with an SUV - a class of car that is becoming about as popular as Ian Brady.

Sorry to break it to you but the Fiat 500 is inflated by exactly the same factor compared to its predecessor as the Mini - as evidenced by scale drawings of both overlaid on top of each other in the press back when the Fiat 500 came out (one set for the originals, another for the new ones).

Furthermore, the 500 can be described as a 'fairly average' hatchback in terms of driving - which is no surprise given that it is based on Panda hardware - while one could never level such criticism at the Mini. There's simply no small mainstream hatch out there with the same level of engineering sophistication (look at that rear suspension again) and dynamics - so you can't possibly say it's overpriced because there's nothing similar to compare to except the Alfa MiTo, that is generally the same price, better equipped but woefully underdeveloped in the dynamic stakes by comparison (again no surprise as at heart, the MiTo is a Punto with some electronic DNA mumbo jumbo overlaid and wide rubber/stiff suspension to disguise the shortcomings of its humble origins) With the Fiat 500 you can exactly calculate what you pay for the design and image - the amount that it costs more than a Panda.

Edited by 900T-R on Monday 11th January 13:15

[900T-R]

Twincam16 said:

MINI needs some substance to add to all the fashion appeal if it is to do as well over the coming years.

Unlike the Fiat (dishorourable mention in Evo's Turkey Of The Year 2008 for being very average to drive thus not living up to the hype) MINI has substance - it's a better drive than the competition.

[okgo]

Twincam16 said:

dandarez said:

Twincam16 said:

Ozzie Osmond said:

Twincam16 said:

Continuing with this name on cars like this makes as much sense as renaming the Daihatsu Charade 'HMS Enormous' or something.

There was a time when Golf was the smallest VW hatchback

Then Golf grew and they had to put the Polo underneath it; and then they both grew and VW added the Lupo.

There was a time when 3-series was the smallest BMW

Then the 3 grew to the size of a 5 and the 5 grew to the size of a 7 and they had to introduce the new 1-series.

Precisely.

So where's the new 'small' Mini?

I could accept the MINI if it was a kind of successor to the 1100/1300, or even the Landcrab, but at the moment it's just a fairly average hatchback in a very large and competitive sector that has managed to chain itself to the vaguries of 'noughties' fashion fads. We're in a new decade now, fashions are beginning to change, the properly-small Fiat 500 is beginning to eat into its market, and BMW can only respond with an SUV - a class of car that is becoming about as popular as Ian Brady.

Fiat 500 is beginning to eat into its market?!! That is absolutely laughable. You need to look at MINI sales figures my friend!!
BMW are not just responding with the SUV. Haven't you heard? The Roadster and Coupe are being built at Cowley, on sale in OCTOBER, as I mentioned above.(and just for info the new decade doesn't start until the end of this year Dec 2010 - 10 years can't end at the end of 09, it ends at completion of 10 -fools, they all got it wrong but can't admit to it!).

http://europeanmotornews.com/2009/11/05/fiat-500-breaks-into-uk-top-10-sales-figures-for-first-time/

http://theswitchback.com/news/sales-down-mini-uk-a...

It's selling well, but not as well as it was, and if you're a bit more hand up than you were and looking for a 'retro' small car, the 500 is perfect. It's also smaller on the outside whilst offering similar interior space, and uses less fuel.

It's like most fashion accessories - when it's cool it's very popular, but when it falls out of favour, it plummets.

MINI needs some substance to add to all the fashion appeal if it is to do as well over the coming years.

You talk utter st.

It uses less fuel because it has a smaller less pwoerful engine. For the performance the MINI fuel economy is very very good, not to mention the D which will do over 70 mpg.

When its cool its cool, when its not it plummets? Its been around 10 YEARS you muppet!! Has sold amazingly well, far better than BMW even expected.

Some substance? you haven't driven one. Fact. I drove one back to back with the 500, and the clear winner was not the loud, crashy crappy seat positioned 500.

Go and find me a bad review from evo about how the mini drives. God you annoy me.

[900T-R]

hadn't seen the 'less fuel consumption' line - which is where the decidedly old-tech 500 falls down.

Fiat 500 1.2 (69 bhp) EU average 119 g/km CO2
Fiat 500 1.4 16V (99 bhp) 140 g/km
MINI Cooper (118 bhp) 129 g/km

Doesn't look too good for Fiat, does it?

[Tangent Police]

MINI's are brilliant and a huge success, they are awesomely epic and lovely for your wife, mum, gran, husband, kids, golf clubs. They don't steam up, are safe and most of all, combine that cheekiness of the old one. They are a total winner.

Apart from when it comes to motorsport. You could cheaply tune minis and make them do hillclimbs/sprints fast. They were pretty competetive and still are.

I see the odd MINI at hillclimbs and sprints, including some very highly tuned Cooper S' the bottom line is they don't cut it and that to me as a full beans mini tuner with a very competetive car isn't good enough. Whilst they are hugely more fit for purpose in every way, they don't cut it when tuned up the hill.

This is just not good enough, which leads me to say in a very typical mini owner way. Too big, too heavy, not good enough

[Marquis_Rex]

900T-R said:

Says the man who bought a pick-em up truck -the most antedeluvian device sold as a 'car' - because he bought into the stereotypical suburban Yank lifestyle... :roll: I'd have reckoned that massive chip on your shoulder would have started to become rather painful by now...

It's not a car- it's a truck- understand? That means it can go off road, carry things- such as Hemi engines without worrying about the floor boards twisting, I can camp in it and it still does 0-60 in under 7 seconds. It rides well also. If you tried that in your lifestyle abomination- the innards would fall out.
And guess what? I don't take it on tracks- I have my Porsche or BMW should I feel the need to do that. Even a Euro-socialist like you should understand that.
Is living in the middle of nowhere in the desert a US surburban lifestyle?

900T-R said:

Lots of other irrlevant stuff slagging off the original design and manufacture of the Mini- obviously comparing it on metrics to modern cars.

I never said the original Mini was a paragon of durable design and robustness. It was painfully underdeveloped like alot of BL stuff (Jags, Land Rover etc).

In some ways I have more respect for the purchase decision of "white goods", Hyundai or Kia than a new Mini- it's not a pretentious lifestyle product targeting the Trendy consumer set who have pretentions of driving the lithe agile original or think they're Paddy Hopkirk. They're just honest appliances.

[900T-R]

Marquis_Rex said:

Even a Euro-socialist <blah>
a pretentious lifestyle product targeting the Trendy consumer set

Methinks you've got some issues, mate. I happen to choose a car for the way it drives (whether I 'track it' has no bearing on the legitimacy of having that priority) within the parameters set by budget, practicalities and the fact it's a company car. Of all the cars I can have within these parameters, I like the way the Mini drives best, by a rather large margin. If you've got any issues with that, maybe PH is not the site for you?

And you're not paid to truck things around, so your 'truck' is effectively a car - and a 'lifestyle' choice. Just like the thirty million other pick-em up trucks in front of suburban homes in the USA - so much for escaping conformity then.

[Marquis_Rex]

900T-R said:

And you're not paid to truck things around, so your 'truck' is effectively a car -

So that means a medium duty Scania truck with no trailer would be classified as a car also by your logic?

900T-R said:

pick-em up trucks

He's a funny guy is that 900T-R

Edited by Marquis_Rex on Monday 11th January 18:34

[Marquis_Rex]

900T-R said:

Of all the cars I can have within these parameters, I like the way the Mini drives best, by a rather large margin.

Keep rationalising your choice matey!

[Twincam16]

okgo said:

Twincam16 said:

dandarez said:

Twincam16 said:

Ozzie Osmond said:

Twincam16 said:

Continuing with this name on cars like this makes as much sense as renaming the Daihatsu Charade 'HMS Enormous' or something.

There was a time when Golf was the smallest VW hatchback

Then Golf grew and they had to put the Polo underneath it; and then they both grew and VW added the Lupo.

There was a time when 3-series was the smallest BMW

Then the 3 grew to the size of a 5 and the 5 grew to the size of a 7 and they had to introduce the new 1-series.

Precisely.

So where's the new 'small' Mini?

I could accept the MINI if it was a kind of successor to the 1100/1300, or even the Landcrab, but at the moment it's just a fairly average hatchback in a very large and competitive sector that has managed to chain itself to the vaguries of 'noughties' fashion fads. We're in a new decade now, fashions are beginning to change, the properly-small Fiat 500 is beginning to eat into its market, and BMW can only respond with an SUV - a class of car that is becoming about as popular as Ian Brady.

Fiat 500 is beginning to eat into its market?!! That is absolutely laughable. You need to look at MINI sales figures my friend!!
BMW are not just responding with the SUV. Haven't you heard? The Roadster and Coupe are being built at Cowley, on sale in OCTOBER, as I mentioned above.(and just for info the new decade doesn't start until the end of this year Dec 2010 - 10 years can't end at the end of 09, it ends at completion of 10 -fools, they all got it wrong but can't admit to it!).

http://europeanmotornews.com/2009/11/05/fiat-500-breaks-into-uk-top-10-sales-figures-for-first-time/

http://theswitchback.com/news/sales-down-mini-uk-a...

It's selling well, but not as well as it was, and if you're a bit more hand up than you were and looking for a 'retro' small car, the 500 is perfect. It's also smaller on the outside whilst offering similar interior space, and uses less fuel.

It's like most fashion accessories - when it's cool it's very popular, but when it falls out of favour, it plummets.

MINI needs some substance to add to all the fashion appeal if it is to do as well over the coming years.

You talk utter st.

It uses less fuel because it has a smaller less pwoerful engine. For the performance the MINI fuel economy is very very good, not to mention the D which will do over 70 mpg.

When its cool its cool, when its not it plummets? Its been around 10 YEARS you muppet!! Has sold amazingly well, far better than BMW even expected.

Some substance? you haven't driven one. Fact. I drove one back to back with the 500, and the clear winner was not the loud, crashy crappy seat positioned 500.

Go and find me a bad review from evo about how the mini drives. God you annoy me.

Hang about.

I 'talk utter st' because I say that the 500 is more fuel-efficient than the MINI, a fact that you then go on to demonstrate, so why am I talking st? Yes, the 500 has a smaller, less powerful engine. Fuel is getting expensive, most small-car buyers couldn't care less about how it drives, but they do care about fuel economy, therefore this sort of thing does matter.

It's been around ten years. True, but so are most fashion cycles. Fashion tends to stick to decades, leading us to make statements like 'that's so nineties' or whatever. However, by contrast, the original Mini was around for 42 years unchanged and is still as cool as it was in 1959. I very much doubt the MINI will match that for longevity.

Also, at what point have I criticised the way the MINI drives? FWIW I have driven one, yes it was quite fun in a nippy, hot-hatch sort of way, and I like the tenacious way it grips the road, but there are plenty of cars that drive like this.

What I find unexceptional and lacking substance about the MINI is its poor packaging. To my mind, packaging should be at the heart of a Mini design in the way that Lotuses are designed chassis-first with handling paramount, and Ferraris around motorsport-derived engines.

Also, I haven't said there's anything wrong with the current range, I just think that in acknowledgement of Mini's heritage, there should be a smaller model available competing with the likes of the Aygo.

Absolutely nothing to merit your disproportionate anger, frankly.

[dandarez]

I know the new MINI is 'bigger' but as I'm old enough to remember the launch of the original Mini (Austin 7) here's a couple of pics.

Black and white pic taken in 1960 shows a new Austin 7 next to a new Ginetta G3. Considering Minis were on 10inch wheels it still looks big next to the Ginetta.

Fast forward to today for comparison to my 2009 MINI JCW next to a tiny 2003 Ginetta G4 (designed in 1960 and still in production).

1960 both built in Britain, both economical.
2009 both still built in Britain, both ruddy FAST!!





As for twincam16 comment, my JCW is the twin-scroll turbo 211bhp. If I want to travel slowly 75 mph I get readings of between 40-47mpg. Fuel efficent? I think so for a car that 'can' do a nat's c*ck short of 150 mph!

Edited by dandarez on Tuesday 12th January 12:06