RE: Driven: Ferrari 599 XX
Discussion
vintageracer01 said:
I can imagine a Gallardo or a DB9 is becoming a very sought after classic!
What? Two of the most common 'super'(and the term is used loosely)cars that you are going to see on the road as so many were produced, and both already down to prices which puts them in reach of an awful lot of people will become sought after classics? Ummm, no.vintageracer01 said:
What ever you think of the P4/5, it is not my argument.
I just took it as an example of good proportions, balance and line work. And it reflects Ferrari's heritage and leads it into a future perspective. There is no point to get hung up over details about exhaust pipes.
The p4/5 in my opinion obviously, is not a good looking car at all. Have you seen it from behind?I just took it as an example of good proportions, balance and line work. And it reflects Ferrari's heritage and leads it into a future perspective. There is no point to get hung up over details about exhaust pipes.
Good proportions, balance and line work? Now i am no expert in car design and have never proffesed to be, but surely, you can't look at that and think 'Now that is a stunner and a great design'.
The P4/5, to cut to the chase, is just a rich man's toy at the end of the day. No more than the 599XX is.
Wayne King said:
vintageracer01 said:
I can imagine a Gallardo or a DB9 is becoming a very sought after classic!
What? Two of the most common 'super'(and the term is used loosely)cars that you are going to see on the road as so many were produced, and both already down to prices which puts them in reach of an awful lot of people will become sought after classics? Ummm, no.And there is a much larger population with access to cars these days and in the future. In the 70's there were some American, European and the odd Japanese car collectors. In the future, there will be additionally Arabian, Russian, Chinese, Indian and 'you name it' collectors , since wealth is spreading. So, larger production numbers will be spread all over the world and will keep market supply of the 'sought after' classic cars rather low, I assume.
And remember, there were Ferrari GTOs!!! in the 70's for a couple of thousand dollars because nobody wanted them. And you could get Stratos's or Miuras or 246 Dinos for very little money, once.
Honestly, what cars would you suggest?
Perhaps BMW Z8 or Ford GTs might have a chance and we will heavily regret that we did not get one when they were awfully cheap.
I am honestly interested in your 'classic car' suggestions!
Edited by vintageracer01 on Thursday 25th February 02:13
Wayne King said:
vintageracer01 said:
What ever you think of the P4/5, it is not my argument.
I just took it as an example of good proportions, balance and line work. And it reflects Ferrari's heritage and leads it into a future perspective. There is no point to get hung up over details about exhaust pipes.
The p4/5 in my opinion obviously, is not a good looking car at all. Have you seen it from behind?I just took it as an example of good proportions, balance and line work. And it reflects Ferrari's heritage and leads it into a future perspective. There is no point to get hung up over details about exhaust pipes.
Good proportions, balance and line work? Now i am no expert in car design and have never proffesed to be, but surely, you can't look at that and think 'Now that is a stunner and a great design'.
The P4/5, to cut to the chase, is just a rich man's toy at the end of the day. No more than the 599XX is.
Race cars such as an Lola T 70 were open in the back or had no rear cover at all, see Porsche 917. In this respect it is a legitimate styling detail which would not be feasible for a production model. Also the exhaust and the open rear window cover might be disputable then but again this are details! This is not the overall theme.
Just take your chosen view! It's a good one. Aren't these fenders with the creased line just beautifully modeled.
How great would look THIS kind of fender treatment on a 458! It would give the car so much more volume and 3-dimensional expression. And the line on the fenders were a typical Ferrari feature on many models.
This would help (besides other treatments) to make the 458 not look too wide and flat in the front as an run-over frog roadkill.
Edited by vintageracer01 on Thursday 25th February 19:24
Wayne King said:
The P4/5, to cut to the chase, is just a rich man's toy at the end of the day. No more than the 599XX is.
With respect, Wayne, although it is true that, in the same sense that brings all of us together here, both vehicles are toys, and it is also true that one would have to be rich to buy either, at base the two projects could not be more different.Whether one likes or dislikes Ferrari hype and hagiography, the Glickenhaus car is the fruit of one man's passion and willingness to take risks in order to make a difference. In contrast, the 599XX or whatever they call it is a superficial exercise in corporate branding.
flemke said:
Wayne King said:
The P4/5, to cut to the chase, is just a rich man's toy at the end of the day. No more than the 599XX is.
With respect, Wayne, although it is true that, in the same sense that brings all of us together here, both vehicles are toys, and it is also true that one would have to be rich to buy either, at base the two projects could not be more different.Whether one likes or dislikes Ferrari hype and hagiography, the Glickenhaus car is the fruit of one man's passion and willingness to take risks in order to make a difference. In contrast, the 599XX or whatever they call it is a superficial exercise in corporate branding.
daveco said:
That's a solid 'meh' from me. New cars are too clinical and characterless. I must be getting old.
Though I agree with you, I'm thinking more along of the lines of the first Esprit etc, it is still a stunning car. But, I would literally take an 89 Esprit before thos car of handed to me and were not allowed to sell it for monetary gain.I am 28 years old sir, not knowing your age I still must agree with your consensus.
"Some people might accuse Ferrari of allowing its customers to fund the development of its future technology"
If you've got that sort of money to spend on a plaything then why is this a bad thing? You've "contributed"
If the cost is not an issue then driving fast on a track in an absolutely mental Ferrari can only be fun.
If you've got that sort of money to spend on a plaything then why is this a bad thing? You've "contributed"
If the cost is not an issue then driving fast on a track in an absolutely mental Ferrari can only be fun.
iamrcb said:
"Some people might accuse Ferrari of allowing its customers to fund the development of its future technology"
If you've got that sort of money to spend on a plaything then why is this a bad thing? You've "contributed"
A "bad" thing? More like, a stupid thing.If you've got that sort of money to spend on a plaything then why is this a bad thing? You've "contributed"
Normally when one pays a price (such as for an Enzo or Veyron) that greatly exceeds the marginal cost of manufacture, it is justified because of relatively small build numbers supporting a relatively large fixed expense base (for design and development).
One normally would not, however, pay a price that greatly exceeded the marginal cost of manufacture in order to subsidise the fixed expense of design and development for an entirely different project.
Well of course there's also the cost of receiving the attention of the Ferrari engineers and any F1 drivers that might be twisted into showing up. Even if the price is well over the 'marginal cost' of manufacture, the owner *should* have a unique car that will hold it's value. When Ferrari snubs the owners by producing more or a GTO that is clearly better then there would be something to gripe about.
I cannot help but think much of the maintenance costs for Mclaren F1s and Veyrons are well over their marginal cost for said maintenance. I don't think that makes the cars or the maintenance necessarily stupid. I would say having a shed load of sports cars and 50% or more being Ferrari's is stupid . . . "A shed load" not two cars.
True the Mclaren F1, MP4 and the Veyron are bespoke to themselves but I'm sure the 599 xx has a few unique bits in it too.
I wonder how long the clutch lasts in a 599 xx verses a Mclaren F1 under the same circumstances - but wait that's more to do with design
Flemke I'll need to research your dislike of Ferrari because I'm sure it has more than just the FIA's occasional favoritism for Ferrari in years past or their bully pulpit ability to negotiate in F1 deals just because.
I cannot help but think much of the maintenance costs for Mclaren F1s and Veyrons are well over their marginal cost for said maintenance. I don't think that makes the cars or the maintenance necessarily stupid. I would say having a shed load of sports cars and 50% or more being Ferrari's is stupid . . . "A shed load" not two cars.
True the Mclaren F1, MP4 and the Veyron are bespoke to themselves but I'm sure the 599 xx has a few unique bits in it too.
I wonder how long the clutch lasts in a 599 xx verses a Mclaren F1 under the same circumstances - but wait that's more to do with design
Flemke I'll need to research your dislike of Ferrari because I'm sure it has more than just the FIA's occasional favoritism for Ferrari in years past or their bully pulpit ability to negotiate in F1 deals just because.
And before this thread is disappearing in oblivion,
here it is about race cars and beauty a last time:
HERE YOU HAVE IT!
Very predictable I admit but I couldn't help myself. Sorry, I had to do it, finally.
So, Ferrari, try a bit harder next time! In a surprising and more modern way, of cause.
here it is about race cars and beauty a last time:
HERE YOU HAVE IT!
Very predictable I admit but I couldn't help myself. Sorry, I had to do it, finally.
So, Ferrari, try a bit harder next time! In a surprising and more modern way, of cause.
PiB said:
Well of course there's also the cost of receiving the attention of the Ferrari engineers and any F1 drivers that might be twisted into showing up. Even if the price is well over the 'marginal cost' of manufacture, the owner *should* have a unique car that will hold it's value. When Ferrari snubs the owners by producing more or a GTO that is clearly better then there would be something to gripe about.
I cannot help but think much of the maintenance costs for Mclaren F1s and Veyrons are well over their marginal cost for said maintenance. I don't think that makes the cars or the maintenance necessarily stupid. I would say having a shed load of sports cars and 50% or more being Ferrari's is stupid . . . "A shed load" not two cars.
True the Mclaren F1, MP4 and the Veyron are bespoke to themselves but I'm sure the 599 xx has a few unique bits in it too.
I wonder how long the clutch lasts in a 599 xx verses a Mclaren F1 under the same circumstances - but wait that's more to do with design
Flemke I'll need to research your dislike of Ferrari because I'm sure it has more than just the FIA's occasional favoritism for Ferrari in years past or their bully pulpit ability to negotiate in F1 deals just because.
A few things:I cannot help but think much of the maintenance costs for Mclaren F1s and Veyrons are well over their marginal cost for said maintenance. I don't think that makes the cars or the maintenance necessarily stupid. I would say having a shed load of sports cars and 50% or more being Ferrari's is stupid . . . "A shed load" not two cars.
True the Mclaren F1, MP4 and the Veyron are bespoke to themselves but I'm sure the 599 xx has a few unique bits in it too.
I wonder how long the clutch lasts in a 599 xx verses a Mclaren F1 under the same circumstances - but wait that's more to do with design
Flemke I'll need to research your dislike of Ferrari because I'm sure it has more than just the FIA's occasional favoritism for Ferrari in years past or their bully pulpit ability to negotiate in F1 deals just because.
- The car is not unique, in that the Enzo FXX preceded it. One would be unsurprised if Ferrari were to continue this product template with future models. This is reminiscent of how Bugatti abused Veyron owners. They created the "Pur Sang", edition of 5 cars total, price higher than standard model. Unique and exclusive...until they introduced 3 further limited edition models, plus the cabrio.
It is always difficult to reconcile the sanctification of the Ferrari "thing". Without that, however, I have little doubt that, over time, the value of the XXs would lag that of other models, for the simple reason that the XXs are nothing but track-day specials with no provenance and yet are very expensive to maintain and run.
- I am aware of the mark-ups involved in said maintenance. They are similar to those of other cars. Furthermore, the distinction that I was making was between a high price paid in part retroactively to cover original development costs (such as with F1 and Veyron), and a high price paid to fund development of future projects for other customers.
- Yes, the 599XX has quite a few bespoke bits on it. Whether they justify a price 5x as high as the base price, however...
- I could not say how long the clutch on the 599XX would last. I've put 33,000 mi on my F1's clutch and it is still going strong, so it's not a problem.
- Wrt my opinion of Ferrari, the racing team's behaviour during the Todt years was often contemptible. Last year, however, it was perfectly respectable. They were just one of 10 teams, and the sport benefited as a result.
The road car business is something else. They make cars a certain way: they do some good things, they do some less good things. Insofar as they trade on a bull5hit factor of enormous proportions, the same sort as that on which Giorgio Armani and Hermes and Richard Mille and the other riff-raff feed, it's offensive.
Show me the Ferrari guys who mill the cranks and cast the heads and I shall look up to them. Show me the clowns in the Ferrari Lifestyle Department and I shall look down into the gutter at them and laugh.
flemke said:
Show me the clowns in the Ferrari Lifestyle Department and I shall look down into the gutter at them and laugh.
Look down and laugh at them for a doing a job which they more than likely enjoy and like to do? Everyone has a job to do in life, whether you like it or not. That is harsh and unfair. Arrogancy at it's best.i like it a lot.
Saying that i have liked liked ferrari's 'design language' since the 360 through the 430 up to the single rear light 599, california and 458. Its modern and a step forward from people harking back to the 355. A 355 looks as dated as the daytona to me. Sometimes you have to move forward.
But thats me, they just happen to appeal to me. I like most of Bangles work on the BMW's too btw so im going to hide in a box before the flaming starts.
Saying that i have liked liked ferrari's 'design language' since the 360 through the 430 up to the single rear light 599, california and 458. Its modern and a step forward from people harking back to the 355. A 355 looks as dated as the daytona to me. Sometimes you have to move forward.
But thats me, they just happen to appeal to me. I like most of Bangles work on the BMW's too btw so im going to hide in a box before the flaming starts.
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