RE: Geneva: Porsche 911 GT3 R Hybrid Unveiled

[Risotto]

stuart-b said:

A Scotsman said:

Somehow the concept of a flywheel running at 40,000 RPM a few inches away from my toolkit just doesn't appeal a lot.....

Exactly what I was thinking

Can you imagine that thing flying around the cabin? Oh dear.

Wasn't there a proposed Le Mans car a few years back that used a flywheel? I think they banned it on the grounds that it would have caused mayhem if the flywheel had made a bid for freedom...!

[Quattronaut]

Joe911 said:

Zod said:

they might need to find a more practical place for the flywheel....

Do you not think they thought it through (or maybe you are joking)?
Surely this project cost Porsche a bundle, would they really just lob it on the passenger floor area without concern for driver safety? There are lots of things spinning in a car at high RPM already.

I read this as them needing to find a more practical location should they look at moving this tech from racetrack to road... relax already, I think everyone knows Porsche are decent engineers...

[Joe911]

Quattronaut said:

I read this as them needing to find a more practical location should they look at moving this tech from racetrack to road... relax already, I think everyone knows Porsche are decent engineers...

Fair comment.
Could it not sit under the passenger seat in a road car?

I'm not sure there is a road application for this. It gives only a short burst of extra power and it may well be that only heavy braking spins up the flywheel. It will be interesting to watch.

[annodomini2]

motoroller said:

kambites said:

motoroller said:

kambites said:

motoroller said:

They're not clear whether it's a flywheel, or electric motors that provide the boost... it would be wasteful to generate electricity off the flywheel to power motors!

Generators and motors are extremely efficient. It's probably more efficient to have an electrical stage than a CVT and/or clutches.

Surely capacitors would seem a better idea? The leakage / decay of useful energy would be lower, which would help for applications on the road...

You would think so, wouldn't you?

The other factor is that the spinning flywheel reduces the cornering ability (although it increases stability).

That would be my concern, the flywheel is sped up under braking, in a race car that means just before you corner.

The gyroscopic effect of the flywheel will attempt to keep it moving in a straight line.

However the gyro might be able to be tilted to enhance cornering.

[Nickellarse]

I think the gyro issue was dealt with a week or so ago when this idea was first discussed on PH.

IIRC you have a very small wheel spinning at a ridiculous speed 40-50Krpm in a vacuum. Therefore it won't unduly affect the handling and can be placed fairly strategically.

Now I'm no engineer, but I think that was the crux of it. Others will correct me, of that I'm sure.

This is the article:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?f=48&... GT3 R Hybrid

Edited by Nickellarse on Wednesday 3rd March 16:21

[briancorish]

That looks fantastic, is it just me or have Porsche all of a sudden woken up and started producing beautiful cars again? it was getting a bit iffy there for a while...

[rev-erend]

Nice link up with Williams technology for the system .. they say only 25kgs extra weigh but pictures I've seem seem to suggest some porkies there ..

Might be the future ..

Sports cars seen as bad - so as they are expensive pioneer the technology there .. helps the sports car image then transfer the tech to lower priced cars and get volume discounts.

[Zod]

Quattronaut said:

Joe911 said:

Zod said:

they might need to find a more practical place for the flywheel....

Do you not think they thought it through (or maybe you are joking)?
Surely this project cost Porsche a bundle, would they really just lob it on the passenger floor area without concern for driver safety? There are lots of things spinning in a car at high RPM already.

I read this as them needing to find a more practical location should they look at moving this tech from racetrack to road... relax already, I think everyone knows Porsche are decent engineers...

I did think the smiley made the intent obvious.

[lclogger]

The 911 GT3R hybrid technology is based on an electro-mechanical flywheel system developed and supplied by Williams Hybrid Power (WHP), part of Williams F1. WHP have a patent on a novel flywheel technology called magentically loaded composite (MLC) which embeds magentic particles in the matrix of the composite rotor. This prevents eddy losses that normal, discrete magnets generate, with associated thermal problems. Thus the Williams system can cycle 'deeper and harder' for performance applications such as this - more at http://www.attwilliams.com/news/view/1222 and www.williamshybridpower.com. And yes, I am from Williams!

[Joe911]

lclogger said:

The 911 GT3R hybrid technology is based on an electro-mechanical flywheel system developed and supplied by Williams Hybrid Power (WHP), part of Williams F1. WHP have a patent on a novel flywheel technology called magentically loaded composite (MLC) which embeds magentic particles in the matrix of the composite rotor. This prevents eddy losses that normal, discrete magnets generate, with associated thermal problems. Thus the Williams system can cycle 'deeper and harder' for performance applications such as this - more at http://www.attwilliams.com/news/view/1222 and www.williamshybridpower.com. And yes, I am from Williams!

OK - great - are you involved directly and understand the technology etc. then?

I've seen discussion about the potential problems with the gyroscopic effects of the flywheel - is this a problem in the real world - or are those effects irrelevant. If it is an issue then what has been done to minimise the effects, or have the effects been somehow turned into a positive to improve handling?

[james2009]

can someone clarify the GT3 rules please, isnt there a HP restriction, if so and the conventional engine is running at the limit as would be normal, how do the rest of the field feel about an additional 160BHP springing up from the passenger seat at the touch of a button?

[motoroller]

Nickellarse said:

I think the gyro issue was dealt with a week or so ago when this idea was first discussed on PH.

IIRC you have a very small wheel spinning at a ridiculous speed 40-50Krpm in a vacuum. Therefore it won't unduly affect the handling and can be placed fairly strategically.

Now I'm no engineer, but I think that was the crux of it. Others will correct me, of that I'm sure.

This is the article:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?f=48&... GT3 R Hybrid

Edited by Nickellarse on Wednesday 3rd March 16:21

While admittedly better than a large flywheel, it's still a lot worse than it would otherwise be, with non-inertial energy storage...

[Joe911]

james2009 said:

can someone clarify the GT3 rules please, isnt there a HP restriction, if so and the conventional engine is running at the limit as would be normal, how do the rest of the field feel about an additional 160BHP springing up from the passenger seat at the touch of a button?

It seems that the various series are trying to encourage hybrid/diesel/alternative technologies and are to some extent giving them a chance. Is it not the case that the GT3R-Hybrid (which should surely be called the GT3R-KERS as it's not really a Hybrid) will be used in the VLN and Ring-24h - I don't think it's running in FIA GT3 this year. In the VLN it may be allowed to run in SP9 (FIA GT3) or more likely in SP7 (specials up to 4L). Actually - looking at the regs - the VLN class for Hybrids is (E1-XP).

[annodomini2]

Joe911 said:

james2009 said:

can someone clarify the GT3 rules please, isnt there a HP restriction, if so and the conventional engine is running at the limit as would be normal, how do the rest of the field feel about an additional 160BHP springing up from the passenger seat at the touch of a button?

It seems that the various series are trying to encourage hybrid/diesel/alternative technologies and are to some extent giving them a chance. Is it not the case that the GT3R-Hybrid (which should surely be called the GT3R-KERS as it's not really a Hybrid) will be used in the VLN and Ring-24h - I don't think it's running in FIA GT3 this year. In the VLN it may be allowed to run in SP9 (FIA GT3) or more likely in SP7 (specials up to 4L). Actually - looking at the regs - the VLN class for Hybrids is (E1-XP).

It is a hybrid, as some of the drive comes from the engine, some from electric motors.

[Gizmo!]

lclogger said:

The 911 GT3R hybrid technology is based on an electro-mechanical flywheel system developed and supplied by Williams Hybrid Power (WHP), part of Williams F1. WHP have a patent on a novel flywheel technology called magentically loaded composite (MLC) which embeds magentic particles in the matrix of the composite rotor. This prevents eddy losses that normal, discrete magnets generate, with associated thermal problems. Thus the Williams system can cycle 'deeper and harder' for performance applications such as this - more at http://www.attwilliams.com/news/view/1222 and www.williamshybridpower.com. And yes, I am from Williams!

You beat me to it - PH doesn't appear to be listening to all the people saying it's not "not unlike Formula 1's KERS system", it actually IS a "Formula 1 KERS system".

[Joe911]

annodomini2 said:

It is a hybrid, as some of the drive comes from the engine, some from electric motors.

Well yes indeed - but in fact Porsche care little about saving the planet with this car and care significantly about extra power. In the PR they talk about fuel saving - but surely that's just a smoke screen and it's the extra power that matters here. It is a racing car, right?

[annodomini2]

Joe911 said:

annodomini2 said:

It is a hybrid, as some of the drive comes from the engine, some from electric motors.

Well yes indeed - but in fact Porsche care little about saving the planet with this car and care significantly about extra power. In the PR they talk about fuel saving - but surely that's just a smoke screen and it's the extra power that matters here. It is a racing car, right?

I agree the benefit here is more power for no extra fuel.

In an endurance race, if you can remove a fuel stop its a big time advantage.