RE: Ferrari 599XX Posts 6Min 58.16Sec 'Ring Time

[havoc]

Kawasicki said:

Interesting one this. I reckon Ferrari marketing have been working up to this for a while now. I understand Schumacher has been working with a team of engineers to improve the performance of their cars around the ring. My opinion is that many ferrari road cars before this work had been done would really struggle on the ring. By struggle, I mean go home and try again struggle. All only my opinion of course.

Imagine a well respected brand of car that can't stick with a lowly bmw, not good for marketing...

Personally I don't think "Ring times" necessarily make for a good road-car - look how stiff and uncompromising a lot of modern performance cars have become! My "hardcore" ITR rides better than many of the latest hot-hatches, FFS! Let alone anything with real performance...

[sjn2004]

havoc said:

sjn2004 said:

I bit of research might not go a miss.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_24_Hours_of_Le_M...

GT2 1st,2nd,3rd,4th Ferrari........11th Porsche

When was the last factory, or even quasi-factory team?!? IIRC Prodrive was the last of those...all others have been privateer teams.

I guess when the "Prancing Horse" is coming in 1st,2nd,3rd,4th,6th,7th,8th,9th,10th place in GT2 at Le Man a factory team isn't needed.

[FOURRONE]

nadirv8 said:

XxSunSurfxX said:

I would love to see the Ultima Guys SMASH that...
Would be like the beating of the Enzo FXX on the TopGear Track

+1

its only a borrowed record ultima will smash it anytime they feel like making the journey and at a fraction of the cost

[Scuffers]

FOURRONE said:

nadirv8 said:

XxSunSurfxX said:

I would love to see the Ultima Guys SMASH that...
Would be like the beating of the Enzo FXX on the TopGear Track

+1

its only a borrowed record ultima will smash it anytime they feel like making the journey and at a fraction of the cost

not sure I would put money on that....

[FOURRONE]

Scuffers said:

FOURRONE said:

nadirv8 said:

XxSunSurfxX said:

I would love to see the Ultima Guys SMASH that...
Would be like the beating of the Enzo FXX on the TopGear Track

+1

its only a borrowed record ultima will smash it anytime they feel like making the journey and at a fraction of the cost

not sure I would put money on that....

I no gambler but you only have to look at the Ultima web site to see that when they have set out to take a record they usually get the result

[andyps]

FOURRONE said:

I no gambler but you only have to look at the Ultima web site to see that when they have set out to take a record they usually get the result

Which means that there may well be a good reason why they haven't ever tried to set a record for a lap at the 'ring. Your statement can very easily be interpreted that they only set out to take a record where they know they can succeed.

[Kawasicki]

havoc said:

Kawasicki said:

Interesting one this. I reckon Ferrari marketing have been working up to this for a while now. I understand Schumacher has been working with a team of engineers to improve the performance of their cars around the ring. My opinion is that many ferrari road cars before this work had been done would really struggle on the ring. By struggle, I mean go home and try again struggle. All only my opinion of course.

Imagine a well respected brand of car that can't stick with a lowly bmw, not good for marketing...

Personally I don't think "Ring times" necessarily make for a good road-car - look how stiff and uncompromising a lot of modern performance cars have become! My "hardcore" ITR rides better than many of the latest hot-hatches, FFS! Let alone anything with real performance...

The whole point is massively stiff doesn't work at the Nurburgring. It's not a smooth track. Suspension that generates strong body control works, but you do need suppleness. What you do need at the Nurburgring is a car with stability at high speed. That is why many "ring tuned" cars feel inert/boring at normal road speeds. You need to drive at seriously high speeds on the road to enjoy all of the handling agility/stability benefit of ring development. So it's relevant in terms of capability, but maybe not in terms of fun, unless your idea of fun is 130mph through a bumpy A road surrounded by trees. The ring makes road cars faster, but is faster more fun?

[Scuffers]

Kawasicki said:

havoc said:

Kawasicki said:

Interesting one this. I reckon Ferrari marketing have been working up to this for a while now. I understand Schumacher has been working with a team of engineers to improve the performance of their cars around the ring. My opinion is that many ferrari road cars before this work had been done would really struggle on the ring. By struggle, I mean go home and try again struggle. All only my opinion of course.

Imagine a well respected brand of car that can't stick with a lowly bmw, not good for marketing...

Personally I don't think "Ring times" necessarily make for a good road-car - look how stiff and uncompromising a lot of modern performance cars have become! My "hardcore" ITR rides better than many of the latest hot-hatches, FFS! Let alone anything with real performance...

The whole point is massively stiff doesn't work at the Nurburgring. It's not a smooth track. Suspension that generates strong body control works, but you do need suppleness. What you do need at the Nurburgring is a car with stability at high speed. That is why many "ring tuned" cars feel inert/boring at normal road speeds. You need to drive at seriously high speeds on the road to enjoy all of the handling agility/stability benefit of ring development. So it's relevant in terms of capability, but maybe not in terms of fun, unless your idea of fun is 130mph through a bumpy A road surrounded by trees. The ring makes road cars faster, but is faster more fun?

that pretty much sums it up, Nurburgring is not like a race track, it's more like a typical old B road.

[havoc]

Interesting point Kawasicki - and probably accurate. So much stuff nowadays is TOO capable for fun road use, and seems to lack any adjustability. I'm clearly not driving quickly enough!


I'd suggest though that while "stiff" in a track-sense doesn't work at the 'ring, 'stiff' in a road-sense certainly does...Karrussel* aside, it's not THAT bumpy compared to a normal A- or B-road in this country...and racers/developers will put up with a lot more than your average punter.


* And that has camber to keep people shiny-side-up.

[Ahonen]

sjn2004 said:

havoc said:

sjn2004 said:

I bit of research might not go a miss.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_24_Hours_of_Le_M...

GT2 1st,2nd,3rd,4th Ferrari........11th Porsche

When was the last factory, or even quasi-factory team?!? IIRC Prodrive was the last of those...all others have been privateer teams.

I guess when the "Prancing Horse" is coming in 1st,2nd,3rd,4th,6th,7th,8th,9th,10th place in GT2 at Le Man a factory team isn't needed.

Hmm. Porsche won the ALMS, LMS, FIA GT Championship and Sebring 12-hour. Not quite as one sided as you seem to think. And if you know anything about sportscar racing you'll know that both Porsche and Ferrari are throwing a lot of factory assistance at their top teams - AF Corse are employing both Jean Alesi and Giancarlo Fisichella this year (and were given a kicking at Ricard the other week).

The guy who you initially replied to was referring to GT1, of course, which he was entirely correct about.

[pilbeam_mp62]

andyps said:

FOURRONE said:

I no gambler but you only have to look at the Ultima web site to see that when they have set out to take a record they usually get the result

Which means that there may well be a good reason why they haven't ever tried to set a record for a lap at the 'ring. Your statement can very easily be interpreted that they only set out to take a record where they know they can succeed.

They went last August, but bad weather meant that they could not set a fast time.

[ctallchris]

Scuffers said:

ctallchris said:

Ferrari said:

despite being road legal the SR8 is basically a spaceframe racing car so it's time doesn't count

I don't see what being built around a spaceframe has to do with it Especially given the Ferrari 360 is built around a spaceframe.

360 is not a spaceframe, any more than a Renault Spider was, or a Lotus Elise is, it;s a welded ali tub

I would have said it is closer to a spaceframe than a lotus style tub from the only image i could find.


however if the 360 is not a spaceframe the F40 is a spaceframe car.

[FOURRONE]

andyps said:

FOURRONE said:

I no gambler but you only have to look at the Ultima web site to see that when they have set out to take a record they usually get the result

Which means that there may well be a good reason why they haven't ever tried to set a record for a lap at the 'ring. Your statement can very easily be interpreted that they only set out to take a record where they know they can succeed.

Maybe but even so you have to admit they have run up a fair list of records

[andyps]

FOURRONE said:

andyps said:

FOURRONE said:

I no gambler but you only have to look at the Ultima web site to see that when they have set out to take a record they usually get the result

Which means that there may well be a good reason why they haven't ever tried to set a record for a lap at the 'ring. Your statement can very easily be interpreted that they only set out to take a record where they know they can succeed.

Maybe but even so you have to admit they have run up a fair list of records

I am not in any way trying to knock the achievements of Ultima, and am happy to accept as stated above that they have been to the 'ring but the weather was against them. They would, however, be daft to publicly try and go for a record which they thought they were unlikely to achieve, and I am sure they are intelligent enough to know this.