RE: Ferrari 599XX Posts 6Min 58.16Sec 'Ring Time
Discussion
matt frost said:
Tony*T3 said:
Will the Caparo perform that well around the Ring? If yes, why havent we seen it yet? (or did I miss it?).
Could it be that the Caparo wont grip during slower corners, and wont handle unless it gets maximum down force? ie, throw itself off the road on tighter bends?
Clarkson was talking crap on Top Gear - he was making a point. It'll still take slow corners faster than basically anything else, but it just excels in faster stuff where it can use the downforce. Its exactly the same with any car with proper downforce. Could it be that the Caparo wont grip during slower corners, and wont handle unless it gets maximum down force? ie, throw itself off the road on tighter bends?
Thats even before you get to the additional effects of generating that much lateral G through the tyres - thats going to produce alot of heat which will need a stronger/harder tyre.
ads_green said:
matt frost said:
Tony*T3 said:
Will the Caparo perform that well around the Ring? If yes, why havent we seen it yet? (or did I miss it?).
Could it be that the Caparo wont grip during slower corners, and wont handle unless it gets maximum down force? ie, throw itself off the road on tighter bends?
Clarkson was talking crap on Top Gear - he was making a point. It'll still take slow corners faster than basically anything else, but it just excels in faster stuff where it can use the downforce. Its exactly the same with any car with proper downforce. Could it be that the Caparo wont grip during slower corners, and wont handle unless it gets maximum down force? ie, throw itself off the road on tighter bends?
Thats even before you get to the additional effects of generating that much lateral G through the tyres - thats going to produce alot of heat which will need a stronger/harder tyre.
There are not that many places at the Ring where you'd be going slowly anyway. 13 miles in 8 min is almost 100mph average speed, so plenty of places to use downforce considering a T1 is probably looking at sub 7min times, or around 110mph average speed!
Dave
^^ The Caparo would do a mental time there. Clarkson's comments are not relevant - simply pointing to the fact that he is not a fast enough driver to be able to extract performance from such an extreme machine (just as the Hamster was unable to do with the F1 car).
As has been said though - by claiming this time all they are doing is inviting anyone with a VLN machine to go out there with a series production racing car that is considerably more 'production derived' than the 599XX and make them look a little silly. Something like a GT3R or the R8LM can also be ordered, bought and taken home too...
But despite all of that, the Fezza is still a pretty awesome machine and I personally enjoyed seeing it blat past me on Monday...
As has been said though - by claiming this time all they are doing is inviting anyone with a VLN machine to go out there with a series production racing car that is considerably more 'production derived' than the 599XX and make them look a little silly. Something like a GT3R or the R8LM can also be ordered, bought and taken home too...
But despite all of that, the Fezza is still a pretty awesome machine and I personally enjoyed seeing it blat past me on Monday...
It would be a very impressive lap for a real road-legal production car.
Howeever, we seem to agree on categorizing it as a race car based on the fact that no other major manufacturer builds track only cars and the lap is on slicks. If Ferrari doesn't race it its their problem. :-)
So, unfortunately I have to say; for a 1.2M Euro race car, it's not an impressive lap. Check the VLN lap times for the top 10 cars (adjust by adding ~1:40-50 for the GP track). They are faster and cost less than half.
Howeever, we seem to agree on categorizing it as a race car based on the fact that no other major manufacturer builds track only cars and the lap is on slicks. If Ferrari doesn't race it its their problem. :-)
So, unfortunately I have to say; for a 1.2M Euro race car, it's not an impressive lap. Check the VLN lap times for the top 10 cars (adjust by adding ~1:40-50 for the GP track). They are faster and cost less than half.
DodoRacing said:
So, unfortunately I have to say; for a 1.2M Euro race car, it's not an impressive lap. Check the VLN lap times for the top 10 cars (adjust by adding ~1:40-50 for the GP track). They are faster and cost less than half.
It's not as much as 1:40 - nearer 1:20-5.Only the Sprintstrecke is used for the VLN, not the full GP.
Joe911 said:
They can say this is 'production-derived' all they like, and Radical can call their cars 'production' if they like - it's a free world.
In reality the XX is a race car, based on a road car.
Just like the Porsche GT3 Cup and GT3 R and GT3 RSR are race cars based on road cars.
Going that fast in a race car would be expected ...
In the VLN the GT3 R / RSR whatever can do a long lap in the region of 8:15 - which equates to about 1:20 more than the Nordschleife alone - so that's, give or take - a full Nordschleife lap in about 6:55.
Gotta love those PR departments.
And interesting that Ferrari have decided to include the Nordschleife, finally, as a benchmark.
I'm probably wrong here and no doubt someone will correct me, but isn't the Fezza a GT1 race car in all but name? Whereas the GT3 RSR as we all know is a GT2 category - so comparing them is not wholly accurate.In reality the XX is a race car, based on a road car.
Just like the Porsche GT3 Cup and GT3 R and GT3 RSR are race cars based on road cars.
Going that fast in a race car would be expected ...
In the VLN the GT3 R / RSR whatever can do a long lap in the region of 8:15 - which equates to about 1:20 more than the Nordschleife alone - so that's, give or take - a full Nordschleife lap in about 6:55.
Gotta love those PR departments.
And interesting that Ferrari have decided to include the Nordschleife, finally, as a benchmark.
Edited by Joe911 on Friday 23 April 15:36
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9R-SyUnvAfQ
Hans Stuck in a 500bhp BMW M3 GTR which I would claim is probably more road car derived than the 599XX.
Run the two videos together the M3 GTR is faster even though the lap is more traffic affected.
Hans Stuck in a 500bhp BMW M3 GTR which I would claim is probably more road car derived than the 599XX.
Run the two videos together the M3 GTR is faster even though the lap is more traffic affected.
mcelliott said:
I'm probably wrong here and no doubt someone will correct me, but isn't the Fezza a GT1 race car in all but name? Whereas the GT3 RSR as we all know is a GT2 category - so comparing them is not wholly accurate.
To be honest I'm a little vague on the whole GT1/2/3/4 thing - and particularly where the XX would fit in. Suffice it to say ... using the word 'production' would be largely inappropriate.If this was a 599GTO with a tax disc in the screen, road legal tyres and even lights it might be impressive. When Ferrari drive one from Maranello to Nurburgring, make no changes at all, do a lap and then drive it home, again with no changes, I want to know the time round the ring. When they bring along a customer experience track-day car which has no chance of being road legal as driven on the lap which was timed then I'm afraid any claims to being a production car are unrealistic. Of course, they could use an F10 and claim it as a production car as they have produced at least 2 of them, for sure.
Ferrari said:
despite being road legal the SR8 is basically a spaceframe racing car so it's time doesn't count
I don't see what being built around a spaceframe has to do with it Especially given the Ferrari 360 is built around a spaceframe.especially because as a description of the 599XX ferrari say on thir own website
Ferrari's website said:
this prototype is an extreme track car
http://www.ferrari.com/English/Scuderia/Corse_Clie...Congratulations Ferrari not only are your cars slower than a small British startup but your press office are a bunch of headline hunting lying cretins.
Bam. Donewell done to the guys at radical i would suggest printing off these two statements and stapling them to the forehead of the next ferrari official you meet.8i
mcelliott said:
I'm probably wrong here and no doubt someone will correct me, but isn't the Fezza a GT1 race car in all but name? Whereas the GT3 RSR as we all know is a GT2 category - so comparing them is not wholly accurate.
The F599XX could not be raced in any category - the FIA has banned active aerodynamics for a long time now. Beyond that the Ferrari has loads of equipment (not least a very large de-restricted engine) that would make it ineligible for any kind of racing. But it is not road legal. And is not as fast as an off-the-shelf racing car. At least - not at the ring in the hands of the driver that they used.It is still a fabulous piece of machinery of course. And also - by all accounts that I have heard - its technology means that to those of us closer to mere mortals that racing gods, more of that performance would be exploitable.
I don't like this highly spun marketing nonsense, but it really is a spectacular toy. Though if I had that kind of cash I would buy a GT3R and a lot of time from someone who could teach me to use it. But that is just me, and of course if someone were to offer me a chance to have a play then I wouldn't have time to blink before I was in the seat...
DiscoColin said:
mcelliott said:
I'm probably wrong here and no doubt someone will correct me, but isn't the Fezza a GT1 race car in all but name? Whereas the GT3 RSR as we all know is a GT2 category - so comparing them is not wholly accurate.
The F599XX could not be raced in any category - the FIA has banned active aerodynamics for a long time now. Beyond that the Ferrari has loads of equipment (not least a very large de-restricted engine) that would make it ineligible for any kind of racing. But it is not road legal. And is not as fast as an off-the-shelf racing car. At least - not at the ring in the hands of the driver that they used.It is still a fabulous piece of machinery of course. And also - by all accounts that I have heard - its technology means that to those of us closer to mere mortals that racing gods, more of that performance would be exploitable.
I don't like this highly spun marketing nonsense, but it really is a spectacular toy.
I think it's rather sad that Ferrari have retreated from all motorsport except F1 and yet still try to portray their cars as the pinnacle of automotive engineering*. Clearly they've a phenomenal brand, but how many 'real' petrolheads still believe in it (as opposed to city-boys and schoolchildren)?
IMHO Ferrari should do two things:-
- drop the theatre and spin...look at the reaction on this thread, FFS!
- put their money where their mouth is and re-enter endurance racing. Prodrive did an excellent job with the 550, and the 599 could be a rather useful starting point for a new GT1 car...make it a proper 'Omologato'!
* Which they haven't been for years
havoc said:
DiscoColin said:
mcelliott said:
I'm probably wrong here and no doubt someone will correct me, but isn't the Fezza a GT1 race car in all but name? Whereas the GT3 RSR as we all know is a GT2 category - so comparing them is not wholly accurate.
The F599XX could not be raced in any category - the FIA has banned active aerodynamics for a long time now. Beyond that the Ferrari has loads of equipment (not least a very large de-restricted engine) that would make it ineligible for any kind of racing. But it is not road legal. And is not as fast as an off-the-shelf racing car. At least - not at the ring in the hands of the driver that they used.It is still a fabulous piece of machinery of course. And also - by all accounts that I have heard - its technology means that to those of us closer to mere mortals that racing gods, more of that performance would be exploitable.
I don't like this highly spun marketing nonsense, but it really is a spectacular toy.
I think it's rather sad that Ferrari have retreated from all motorsport except F1 and yet still try to portray their cars as the pinnacle of automotive engineering*. Clearly they've a phenomenal brand, but how many 'real' petrolheads still believe in it (as opposed to city-boys and schoolchildren)?
IMHO Ferrari should do two things:-
- drop the theatre and spin...look at the reaction on this thread, FFS!
- put their money where their mouth is and re-enter endurance racing. Prodrive did an excellent job with the 550, and the 599 could be a rather useful starting point for a new GT1 car...make it a proper 'Omologato'!
* Which they haven't been for years
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_24_Hours_of_Le_M...
GT2 1st,2nd,3rd,4th Ferrari........11th Porsche
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