RE: Driven: Ferrari 599 GTO
Discussion
Murcielago_Boy said:
I'm sorry but I really cannot help but think about how much I do NOT want this car - at any price...
The article tells me all that's WRONG with Ferrari's today.It's actually confirmed what I've been thinking for quite a few years now: They keep optimising cars around electronics designed to make the car faster, not more **enjoyable**...... and it's pi55ing me off and it's not making for truly classic supercars.
I've had a few Ferrari's now and I cannot help but think they're getting less and less interesting to drive. The performance is insane and the ease of use is incredible - no question. Per se, there is nothing wrong with any one of their products. However the experience is becoming increasingly synthetic and videogame-esque and the involvement is being defined by the performance. Step into a 275GTB/4 and you have fun doing 20mph!
Worse still this electronic optimisation means the cars are actually deeply compromised as soon as the electronics are turned off because none of the systems nor the chassis/diff is setup to operate with all of the gubbins in "off" mode.
A friend of mine, posts here, could have ANY Ferrari and recently purchased an F50 to add to his Carrera GT - it has nothing, no ABS, no e-diff, no stability, no traction, no power steering, no power brakes, no F1 gearbox - nothing.... and it's absolutely the most wonderful, utterly thrilling and absorbing Ferrari I've ever ever driven and I've driven almost ALL of them. Who gives an F**K about it's lap time??
Along those same lines, I think the 355 was a better car than my 430 Spider, I think the 550 Maranello is wayyy more involving than the 599 (which I consider a huge Merc - blasphemy!) and this GTO wouldn't hold a candle to it's 288 forebear let alone the 250...
Someone needs to tell Ferrari that F1 technology makes for fast, boring cars... just look at the racing.....
Still, could be worse. You could buy a Porsche and have to deal with their appalling customer service instead...
What you are (rightly) complaining about isn't current F1 tech, it's road car tech. In my opinion making a car agile and then using electronic control to keep it stable isn't much of a challenge. What is interesting is that Ferrari are brave enough to say that is what they have done.The article tells me all that's WRONG with Ferrari's today.It's actually confirmed what I've been thinking for quite a few years now: They keep optimising cars around electronics designed to make the car faster, not more **enjoyable**...... and it's pi55ing me off and it's not making for truly classic supercars.
I've had a few Ferrari's now and I cannot help but think they're getting less and less interesting to drive. The performance is insane and the ease of use is incredible - no question. Per se, there is nothing wrong with any one of their products. However the experience is becoming increasingly synthetic and videogame-esque and the involvement is being defined by the performance. Step into a 275GTB/4 and you have fun doing 20mph!
Worse still this electronic optimisation means the cars are actually deeply compromised as soon as the electronics are turned off because none of the systems nor the chassis/diff is setup to operate with all of the gubbins in "off" mode.
A friend of mine, posts here, could have ANY Ferrari and recently purchased an F50 to add to his Carrera GT - it has nothing, no ABS, no e-diff, no stability, no traction, no power steering, no power brakes, no F1 gearbox - nothing.... and it's absolutely the most wonderful, utterly thrilling and absorbing Ferrari I've ever ever driven and I've driven almost ALL of them. Who gives an F**K about it's lap time??
Along those same lines, I think the 355 was a better car than my 430 Spider, I think the 550 Maranello is wayyy more involving than the 599 (which I consider a huge Merc - blasphemy!) and this GTO wouldn't hold a candle to it's 288 forebear let alone the 250...
Someone needs to tell Ferrari that F1 technology makes for fast, boring cars... just look at the racing.....
Still, could be worse. You could buy a Porsche and have to deal with their appalling customer service instead...
AtomMan said:
It is not that much more than the standard car - £211k or so for a 599 HGTE makes the GTO bloody good value in my opinion...
Nah, its only another 80 odd thousand more, small change mate!;)But seriously, would definitely have one in my collection if I had that kind of disposable lying around! Personally think its fine if Ferrari have decided to make it an electronically showcase in the handling control department, lets face it most of them will be driven on the road.
Have to admit I'm not really a big Ferrari fan, I find their road cars soooo over the top. Apart from the Italia, their cars over the last 10 years or so have also been pretty ugly. Not sure I could sit at the traffic lights in a GTO, look across at the guy in the Carrera 4S/Gallardo and manage not to feel like a cock..
Awaesome piece of engineering though, the video link: http://www.autocar.co.uk/VideosWallpapers/Videos.a... is well worth a look.
Awaesome piece of engineering though, the video link: http://www.autocar.co.uk/VideosWallpapers/Videos.a... is well worth a look.
Murcielago_Boy said:
I'm sorry but I really cannot help but think about how much I do NOT want this car - at any price...
The article tells me all that's WRONG with Ferrari's today.It's actually confirmed what I've been thinking for quite a few years now: They keep optimising cars around electronics designed to make the car faster, not more **enjoyable**...... and it's pi55ing me off and it's not making for truly classic supercars.
I've had a few Ferrari's now and I cannot help but think they're getting less and less interesting to drive. The performance is insane and the ease of use is incredible - no question. Per se, there is nothing wrong with any one of their products. However the experience is becoming increasingly synthetic and videogame-esque and the involvement is being defined by the performance. Step into a 275GTB/4 and you have fun doing 20mph!
Worse still this electronic optimisation means the cars are actually deeply compromised as soon as the electronics are turned off because none of the systems nor the chassis/diff is setup to operate with all of the gubbins in "off" mode.
A friend of mine, posts here, could have ANY Ferrari and recently purchased an F50 to add to his Carrera GT - it has nothing, no ABS, no e-diff, no stability, no traction, no power steering, no power brakes, no F1 gearbox - nothing.... and it's absolutely the most wonderful, utterly thrilling and absorbing Ferrari I've ever ever driven and I've driven almost ALL of them. Who gives an F**K about it's lap time??
Along those same lines, I think the 355 was a better car than my 430 Spider, I think the 550 Maranello is wayyy more involving than the 599 (which I consider a huge Merc - blasphemy!) and this GTO wouldn't hold a candle to it's 288 forebear let alone the 250...
Someone needs to tell Ferrari that F1 technology makes for fast, boring cars... just look at the racing.....
Still, could be worse. You could buy a Porsche and have to deal with their appalling customer service instead...
Couldn't agree more. If I were to blow money on a Ferrari it would definitely be a F40 or 288 and not one of the current models. Porsche currently has a better idea of what a real sports car should be with the GT3 RS (and previously with the Carrera GT) - less electronics and more interaction.
The article tells me all that's WRONG with Ferrari's today.It's actually confirmed what I've been thinking for quite a few years now: They keep optimising cars around electronics designed to make the car faster, not more **enjoyable**...... and it's pi55ing me off and it's not making for truly classic supercars.
I've had a few Ferrari's now and I cannot help but think they're getting less and less interesting to drive. The performance is insane and the ease of use is incredible - no question. Per se, there is nothing wrong with any one of their products. However the experience is becoming increasingly synthetic and videogame-esque and the involvement is being defined by the performance. Step into a 275GTB/4 and you have fun doing 20mph!
Worse still this electronic optimisation means the cars are actually deeply compromised as soon as the electronics are turned off because none of the systems nor the chassis/diff is setup to operate with all of the gubbins in "off" mode.
A friend of mine, posts here, could have ANY Ferrari and recently purchased an F50 to add to his Carrera GT - it has nothing, no ABS, no e-diff, no stability, no traction, no power steering, no power brakes, no F1 gearbox - nothing.... and it's absolutely the most wonderful, utterly thrilling and absorbing Ferrari I've ever ever driven and I've driven almost ALL of them. Who gives an F**K about it's lap time??
Along those same lines, I think the 355 was a better car than my 430 Spider, I think the 550 Maranello is wayyy more involving than the 599 (which I consider a huge Merc - blasphemy!) and this GTO wouldn't hold a candle to it's 288 forebear let alone the 250...
Someone needs to tell Ferrari that F1 technology makes for fast, boring cars... just look at the racing.....
Still, could be worse. You could buy a Porsche and have to deal with their appalling customer service instead...
Couldn't agree more. If I were to blow money on a Ferrari it would definitely be a F40 or 288 and not one of the current models. Porsche currently has a better idea of what a real sports car should be with the GT3 RS (and previously with the Carrera GT) - less electronics and more interaction.
Murcielago_Boy said:
I'm sorry but I really cannot help but think about how much I do NOT want this car - at any price...
The article tells me all that's WRONG with Ferrari's today.It's actually confirmed what I've been thinking for quite a few years now: They keep optimising cars around electronics designed to make the car faster, not more **enjoyable**...... and it's pi55ing me off and it's not making for truly classic supercars.
I've had a few Ferrari's now and I cannot help but think they're getting less and less interesting to drive. The performance is insane and the ease of use is incredible - no question. Per se, there is nothing wrong with any one of their products. However the experience is becoming increasingly synthetic and videogame-esque and the involvement is being defined by the performance. Step into a 275GTB/4 and you have fun doing 20mph!
Worse still this electronic optimisation means the cars are actually deeply compromised as soon as the electronics are turned off because none of the systems nor the chassis/diff is setup to operate with all of the gubbins in "off" mode.
A friend of mine, posts here, could have ANY Ferrari and recently purchased an F50 to add to his Carrera GT - it has nothing, no ABS, no e-diff, no stability, no traction, no power steering, no power brakes, no F1 gearbox - nothing.... and it's absolutely the most wonderful, utterly thrilling and absorbing Ferrari I've ever ever driven and I've driven almost ALL of them. Who gives an F**K about it's lap time??
Along those same lines, I think the 355 was a better car than my 430 Spider, I think the 550 Maranello is wayyy more involving than the 599 (which I consider a huge Merc - blasphemy!) and this GTO wouldn't hold a candle to it's 288 forebear let alone the 250...
Someone needs to tell Ferrari that F1 technology makes for fast, boring cars... just look at the racing.....
Still, could be worse. You could buy a Porsche and have to deal with their appalling customer service instead...
I could not agree more! I admire technology when used to win races or bring additional safety to a road car, but when a car's sole purpose is to bring track enjoyment, I can't help thinking classics or Caterham type track day cars have the advantage.The article tells me all that's WRONG with Ferrari's today.It's actually confirmed what I've been thinking for quite a few years now: They keep optimising cars around electronics designed to make the car faster, not more **enjoyable**...... and it's pi55ing me off and it's not making for truly classic supercars.
I've had a few Ferrari's now and I cannot help but think they're getting less and less interesting to drive. The performance is insane and the ease of use is incredible - no question. Per se, there is nothing wrong with any one of their products. However the experience is becoming increasingly synthetic and videogame-esque and the involvement is being defined by the performance. Step into a 275GTB/4 and you have fun doing 20mph!
Worse still this electronic optimisation means the cars are actually deeply compromised as soon as the electronics are turned off because none of the systems nor the chassis/diff is setup to operate with all of the gubbins in "off" mode.
A friend of mine, posts here, could have ANY Ferrari and recently purchased an F50 to add to his Carrera GT - it has nothing, no ABS, no e-diff, no stability, no traction, no power steering, no power brakes, no F1 gearbox - nothing.... and it's absolutely the most wonderful, utterly thrilling and absorbing Ferrari I've ever ever driven and I've driven almost ALL of them. Who gives an F**K about it's lap time??
Along those same lines, I think the 355 was a better car than my 430 Spider, I think the 550 Maranello is wayyy more involving than the 599 (which I consider a huge Merc - blasphemy!) and this GTO wouldn't hold a candle to it's 288 forebear let alone the 250...
Someone needs to tell Ferrari that F1 technology makes for fast, boring cars... just look at the racing.....
Still, could be worse. You could buy a Porsche and have to deal with their appalling customer service instead...
oagent said:
Murcielago_Boy said:
I'm sorry but I really cannot help but think about how much I do NOT want this car - at any price...
The article tells me all that's WRONG with Ferrari's today.It's actually confirmed what I've been thinking for quite a few years now: They keep optimising cars around electronics designed to make the car faster, not more **enjoyable**...... and it's pi55ing me off and it's not making for truly classic supercars.
I've had a few Ferrari's now and I cannot help but think they're getting less and less interesting to drive. The performance is insane and the ease of use is incredible - no question. Per se, there is nothing wrong with any one of their products. However the experience is becoming increasingly synthetic and videogame-esque and the involvement is being defined by the performance. Step into a 275GTB/4 and you have fun doing 20mph!
Worse still this electronic optimisation means the cars are actually deeply compromised as soon as the electronics are turned off because none of the systems nor the chassis/diff is setup to operate with all of the gubbins in "off" mode.
A friend of mine, posts here, could have ANY Ferrari and recently purchased an F50 to add to his Carrera GT - it has nothing, no ABS, no e-diff, no stability, no traction, no power steering, no power brakes, no F1 gearbox - nothing.... and it's absolutely the most wonderful, utterly thrilling and absorbing Ferrari I've ever ever driven and I've driven almost ALL of them. Who gives an F**K about it's lap time??
Along those same lines, I think the 355 was a better car than my 430 Spider, I think the 550 Maranello is wayyy more involving than the 599 (which I consider a huge Merc - blasphemy!) and this GTO wouldn't hold a candle to it's 288 forebear let alone the 250...
Someone needs to tell Ferrari that F1 technology makes for fast, boring cars... just look at the racing.....
Still, could be worse. You could buy a Porsche and have to deal with their appalling customer service instead...
I could not agree more! I admire technology when used to win races or bring additional safety to a road car, but when a car's sole purpose is to bring track enjoyment, I can't help thinking classics or Caterham type track day cars have the advantage.The article tells me all that's WRONG with Ferrari's today.It's actually confirmed what I've been thinking for quite a few years now: They keep optimising cars around electronics designed to make the car faster, not more **enjoyable**...... and it's pi55ing me off and it's not making for truly classic supercars.
I've had a few Ferrari's now and I cannot help but think they're getting less and less interesting to drive. The performance is insane and the ease of use is incredible - no question. Per se, there is nothing wrong with any one of their products. However the experience is becoming increasingly synthetic and videogame-esque and the involvement is being defined by the performance. Step into a 275GTB/4 and you have fun doing 20mph!
Worse still this electronic optimisation means the cars are actually deeply compromised as soon as the electronics are turned off because none of the systems nor the chassis/diff is setup to operate with all of the gubbins in "off" mode.
A friend of mine, posts here, could have ANY Ferrari and recently purchased an F50 to add to his Carrera GT - it has nothing, no ABS, no e-diff, no stability, no traction, no power steering, no power brakes, no F1 gearbox - nothing.... and it's absolutely the most wonderful, utterly thrilling and absorbing Ferrari I've ever ever driven and I've driven almost ALL of them. Who gives an F**K about it's lap time??
Along those same lines, I think the 355 was a better car than my 430 Spider, I think the 550 Maranello is wayyy more involving than the 599 (which I consider a huge Merc - blasphemy!) and this GTO wouldn't hold a candle to it's 288 forebear let alone the 250...
Someone needs to tell Ferrari that F1 technology makes for fast, boring cars... just look at the racing.....
Still, could be worse. You could buy a Porsche and have to deal with their appalling customer service instead...
I can't help but think that apart from the straight line pace and the noise, would the 599GTO be any more fun to drive on a track day than my Exige?Probably not.
Murcielago_Boy said:
I'm sorry but I really cannot help but think about how much I do NOT want this car - at any price...
The article tells me all that's WRONG with Ferrari's today.It's actually confirmed what I've been thinking for quite a few years now: They keep optimising cars around electronics designed to make the car faster, not more **enjoyable**...... and it's pi55ing me off and it's not making for truly classic supercars.
I've had a few Ferrari's now and I cannot help but think they're getting less and less interesting to drive. The performance is insane and the ease of use is incredible - no question. Per se, there is nothing wrong with any one of their products. However the experience is becoming increasingly synthetic and videogame-esque and the involvement is being defined by the performance. Step into a 275GTB/4 and you have fun doing 20mph!
Worse still this electronic optimisation means the cars are actually deeply compromised as soon as the electronics are turned off because none of the systems nor the chassis/diff is setup to operate with all of the gubbins in "off" mode.
A friend of mine, posts here, could have ANY Ferrari and recently purchased an F50 to add to his Carrera GT - it has nothing, no ABS, no e-diff, no stability, no traction, no power steering, no power brakes, no F1 gearbox - nothing.... and it's absolutely the most wonderful, utterly thrilling and absorbing Ferrari I've ever ever driven and I've driven almost ALL of them. Who gives an F**K about it's lap time??
Along those same lines, I think the 355 was a better car than my 430 Spider, I think the 550 Maranello is wayyy more involving than the 599 (which I consider a huge Merc - blasphemy!) and this GTO wouldn't hold a candle to it's 288 forebear let alone the 250...
Someone needs to tell Ferrari that F1 technology makes for fast, boring cars... just look at the racing.....
Still, could be worse. You could buy a Porsche and have to deal with their appalling customer service instead...
Absolutely spot on!The article tells me all that's WRONG with Ferrari's today.It's actually confirmed what I've been thinking for quite a few years now: They keep optimising cars around electronics designed to make the car faster, not more **enjoyable**...... and it's pi55ing me off and it's not making for truly classic supercars.
I've had a few Ferrari's now and I cannot help but think they're getting less and less interesting to drive. The performance is insane and the ease of use is incredible - no question. Per se, there is nothing wrong with any one of their products. However the experience is becoming increasingly synthetic and videogame-esque and the involvement is being defined by the performance. Step into a 275GTB/4 and you have fun doing 20mph!
Worse still this electronic optimisation means the cars are actually deeply compromised as soon as the electronics are turned off because none of the systems nor the chassis/diff is setup to operate with all of the gubbins in "off" mode.
A friend of mine, posts here, could have ANY Ferrari and recently purchased an F50 to add to his Carrera GT - it has nothing, no ABS, no e-diff, no stability, no traction, no power steering, no power brakes, no F1 gearbox - nothing.... and it's absolutely the most wonderful, utterly thrilling and absorbing Ferrari I've ever ever driven and I've driven almost ALL of them. Who gives an F**K about it's lap time??
Along those same lines, I think the 355 was a better car than my 430 Spider, I think the 550 Maranello is wayyy more involving than the 599 (which I consider a huge Merc - blasphemy!) and this GTO wouldn't hold a candle to it's 288 forebear let alone the 250...
Someone needs to tell Ferrari that F1 technology makes for fast, boring cars... just look at the racing.....
Still, could be worse. You could buy a Porsche and have to deal with their appalling customer service instead...
For a car that is supposed to be entertaining as opposed to a 500hp Merc/BMW/Audi etc boring mobile barge where the driver is cosseted to the nth degree with electronics and blindly thinks they are a decent driver…
I had the total privilege to briefly drive a Dino 206 SP on the road last year, a stunning, agile, manual delight. Forgetting the value, I would take that car over any current production Ferrari.
The millechili thought might come through eventually, but I fear it will also be covered in electronics, dulling the whole experience.
Road useable cars aren’t supposed to be optimised weapons; an F-117 would fall out of the sky if it wasn’t for the computers adjusting the control surfaces for the pilot, but that’s to deliver missiles etc… we don’t need that on our ‘fun’ cars.
Meanwhile, try rebuilding a 599 GTO in 40 years time… Err
Whilst i am a big fan of back to basics cars. I have to say that this gto is an amazing bit of kit, at the end of they day its just a very advanced and up to date car. Things move on, when the 250gto came out it was hardly a dated car (infact probably quite advanced for the time). I have very little doubt that this will be seen as a form of classic in 40 years time, when ill be whinging about the more advanced current cars whilst in my 60's.
At least its still rear wheel drive with a large N/A v12 (that is about 8 years old).
At least its still rear wheel drive with a large N/A v12 (that is about 8 years old).
No doubt it's a phenominal car. But I'm not sure of its GTO credentials. It's a long way from the 250 or the 288 - which both had circa 3 litre engines. We're talking of a front engined GT car here with a stonking 6 litre V12. The laws of physics can't be indefiniely bent!
Kudos to Sutters for shaving 2-3 seconds off a lap WITHOUT the electronic gismos. He must be quite some driver; more so for something that clearly wasn't meant to be driven sans driving aids.
Still a 10/10 for me though. It's wonderfully pretty, and what an engine. How nice would that be for some continental trips?!
Kudos to Sutters for shaving 2-3 seconds off a lap WITHOUT the electronic gismos. He must be quite some driver; more so for something that clearly wasn't meant to be driven sans driving aids.
Still a 10/10 for me though. It's wonderfully pretty, and what an engine. How nice would that be for some continental trips?!
Dagnut said:
Some people like going fast...
always the same complaints when a new Ferrari arrives..too many electronics..we want fast light Ferraris.. blah blah blah..you can turn them off as always. Based on a 599 this was never going to be a light weight nimble car..what were you all expecting?
Sorry mate. I hate to disagree when it comes to a new Ferrari but this fake GTO thing (homolgated for nothing) is little more than a technical exercise.always the same complaints when a new Ferrari arrives..too many electronics..we want fast light Ferraris.. blah blah blah..you can turn them off as always. Based on a 599 this was never going to be a light weight nimble car..what were you all expecting?
If I may give a quick lecture:
I've experienced this in the 430 Scuderia - the diff basically juggles the power between inside and outside wheels during cornering to ensure that the car matches your steering trajectory. Understeer, and then drive is transferred to the outside rear. Oversteer, and then it's transferred to the inside rear.It's simultaneously amazingly competent and TOTALLY uninvolving.
In addition, too fast going in or too much powering out outright and the computers will brake wheels independently and/or cut power as well - with the overall balance tending toward understeer.
So - Head into a corner and the diff/stability + brakes etc stabilise you and turn you in.
Get to the apex, floor the throttle and the TC, diff etc power you out.
... HOW F**KING BORING IS THAT??
So then you turn it all off...
...And whoa, the car's handling is an absolute mess - massive understeer on the way in (blame the suspension geometry - Ferrari keep setting the cars up for the US market) followed by unpredictable oversteer on the way out (as the e-diff doesn't know how the deploy the power because it's meant to work with the electronics) and nasty momentum oversteer during high-speed cornering.
So then you switch it back on and say "F**K THIS"
Everyone who says the Caterhams/Elises etc will be better are 1 BILLION percent right... it's just no-one would admit it having spent £300 large on this video game.
Edited by Murcielago_Boy on Tuesday 1st June 16:00
Edited by Murcielago_Boy on Tuesday 1st June 15:59
Murcielago_Boy said:
Dagnut said:
Some people like going fast...
always the same complaints when a new Ferrari arrives..too many electronics..we want fast light Ferraris.. blah blah blah..you can turn them off as always. Based on a 599 this was never going to be a light weight nimble car..what were you all expecting?
Sorry mate. I hate to disagree when it comes to a new Ferrari but this fake GTO thing (homolgated for nothing) is little more than a technical exercise.always the same complaints when a new Ferrari arrives..too many electronics..we want fast light Ferraris.. blah blah blah..you can turn them off as always. Based on a 599 this was never going to be a light weight nimble car..what were you all expecting?
If I may give a quick lecture:
I've experienced this in the 430 Scuderia - the diff basically juggles the power between inside and outside wheels during cornering to ensure that the car matches your steering trajectory. Understeer, and then drive is transferred to the outside rear. Oversteer, and then it's transferred to the inside rear.It's simultaneously amazingly competent and TOTALLY uninvolving.
In addition, too fast going in or too much powering out outright and the computers will brake wheels independently and/or cut power as well - with the overall balance tending toward understeer.
So - Head into a corner and the diff/stability + brakes etc stabilise you and turn you in.
Get to the apex, floor the throttle and the TC, diff etc power you out.
... HOW F**KING BORING IS THAT??
So then you turn it all off...
...And whoa, the car's handling is an absolute mess - massive understeer on the way in (blame the suspension geometry - Ferrari keep setting the cars up for the US market) followed by unpredictable oversteer on the way out (as the e-diff doesn't know how the deploy the power because it's meant to work with the electronics) and nasty momentum oversteer during high-speed cornering.
So then you switch it back on and say "F**K THIS, can anyone say GT3 RS"
I kid you not when I say a little Lotus Elise is a million times more fun to drive.
Edited by Murcielago_Boy on Tuesday 1st June 16:00
Ferrari don't build cars like that anymore, haven't in long long time.
hoyin said:
Do they have all these gizmos on F1 cars???
So all the drivers need to do is hit the apex and floor it all the time?
Errr that doesn't require that much skill!
it does when youre going really quickly i guess, need cast iron balls So all the drivers need to do is hit the apex and floor it all the time?
Errr that doesn't require that much skill!
I personally like the direction ferrari is going with their cars, but i also appreciate that some dont like it and other manufactures are going different routes. Nice to have a choice though. Now a ferrari roadster would be nice.....
Murcielago_Boy said:
Dagnut said:
Some people like going fast...
always the same complaints when a new Ferrari arrives..too many electronics..we want fast light Ferraris.. blah blah blah..you can turn them off as always. Based on a 599 this was never going to be a light weight nimble car..what were you all expecting?
Sorry mate. I hate to disagree when it comes to a new Ferrari but this fake GTO thing (homolgated for nothing) is little more than a technical exercise.always the same complaints when a new Ferrari arrives..too many electronics..we want fast light Ferraris.. blah blah blah..you can turn them off as always. Based on a 599 this was never going to be a light weight nimble car..what were you all expecting?
If I may give a quick lecture:
I've experienced this in the 430 Scuderia - the diff basically juggles the power between inside and outside wheels during cornering to ensure that the car matches your steering trajectory. Understeer, and then drive is transferred to the outside rear. Oversteer, and then it's transferred to the inside rear.It's simultaneously amazingly competent and TOTALLY uninvolving.
In addition, too fast going in or too much powering out outright and the computers will brake wheels independently and/or cut power as well - with the overall balance tending toward understeer.
So - Head into a corner and the diff/stability + brakes etc stabilise you and turn you in.
Get to the apex, floor the throttle and the TC, diff etc power you out.
... HOW F**KING BORING IS THAT??
So then you turn it all off...
...And whoa, the car's handling is an absolute mess - massive understeer on the way in (blame the suspension geometry - Ferrari keep setting the cars up for the US market) followed by unpredictable oversteer on the way out (as the e-diff doesn't know how the deploy the power because it's meant to work with the electronics) and nasty momentum oversteer during high-speed cornering.
So then you switch it back on and say "F**K THIS"
Everyone who says the Caterhams/Elises etc will be better are 1 BILLION percent right... it's just no-one would admit it having spent £300 large on this video game.
Edited by Murcielago_Boy on Tuesday 1st June 16:00
Edited by Murcielago_Boy on Tuesday 1st June 15:59
Autocar:
http://www.autocar.co.uk/CarReviews/RoadTestsVerdi...
Car Magazine:
http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Drives/Search-Results...
Evo:
http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evocarreviews/2102...
What Car magazine:
http://www.whatcar.com/car-news/uk-drive-ferrari-4...
Road and Track (USA):
http://www.roadandtrack.com/tests/drives/2008-ferr...
Auto Sport (Germany):
http://www.sportauto-online.de/supertest/ferrari-4...
all of which strongly suggests that your purported lecture on the subject is in fact utter rubbish Murcielago_Boy
chelme said:
Murcielago_Boy said:
Dagnut said:
Some people like going fast...
always the same complaints when a new Ferrari arrives..too many electronics..we want fast light Ferraris.. blah blah blah..you can turn them off as always. Based on a 599 this was never going to be a light weight nimble car..what were you all expecting?
Sorry mate. I hate to disagree when it comes to a new Ferrari but this fake GTO thing (homolgated for nothing) is little more than a technical exercise.always the same complaints when a new Ferrari arrives..too many electronics..we want fast light Ferraris.. blah blah blah..you can turn them off as always. Based on a 599 this was never going to be a light weight nimble car..what were you all expecting?
If I may give a quick lecture:
I've experienced this in the 430 Scuderia - the diff basically juggles the power between inside and outside wheels during cornering to ensure that the car matches your steering trajectory. Understeer, and then drive is transferred to the outside rear. Oversteer, and then it's transferred to the inside rear.It's simultaneously amazingly competent and TOTALLY uninvolving.
In addition, too fast going in or too much powering out outright and the computers will brake wheels independently and/or cut power as well - with the overall balance tending toward understeer.
So - Head into a corner and the diff/stability + brakes etc stabilise you and turn you in.
Get to the apex, floor the throttle and the TC, diff etc power you out.
... HOW F**KING BORING IS THAT??
So then you turn it all off...
...And whoa, the car's handling is an absolute mess - massive understeer on the way in (blame the suspension geometry - Ferrari keep setting the cars up for the US market) followed by unpredictable oversteer on the way out (as the e-diff doesn't know how the deploy the power because it's meant to work with the electronics) and nasty momentum oversteer during high-speed cornering.
So then you switch it back on and say "F**K THIS"
Everyone who says the Caterhams/Elises etc will be better are 1 BILLION percent right... it's just no-one would admit it having spent £300 large on this video game.
Edited by Murcielago_Boy on Tuesday 1st June 16:00
Edited by Murcielago_Boy on Tuesday 1st June 15:59
Autocar:
http://www.autocar.co.uk/CarReviews/RoadTestsVerdi...
Car Magazine:
http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Drives/Search-Results...
Evo:
http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evocarreviews/2102...
What Car magazine:
http://www.whatcar.com/car-news/uk-drive-ferrari-4...
Road and Track (USA):
http://www.roadandtrack.com/tests/drives/2008-ferr...
Auto Sport (Germany):
http://www.sportauto-online.de/supertest/ferrari-4...
all of which strongly suggests that your purported lecture on the subject is in fact utter rubbish Murcielago_Boy
As for the journos - well I couldn't care less about their opinion. Perhaps I should have trained as a professional driver, borrowed my 430 Scuderia from Ferrari, thrashed it round a circuit for a day, and then given it back (ensuring I only write positive material otherwise they'll never lend the company I work for a car again) and gone back to evaluating hatches etc for a more "accurate" opinion.....
Hell, I've only owned the car - what do I know right?
Sorry pal, If I want to know how a new Ferrari drives, I'm fortunate enough (despite not having had many example) that I can go to Maranello, Italy (or Wandsworth
) and drive one. I don't need a journalist to rate it for me.Their opinion is utterly meaningless - as it's ME spending MY money and not them....
On release, these people said that the 360 was a great handling car (now widely regarding as a very twitchy machine) - it took them almost 9 years to realise the F50 was one of the greatest Ferraris ever made (after being panned by testers initially) - It took them almost a decade and a half to to realise the 288 is actually a more exciting and even more raw car than the deeply compromised F40. The same testers think that 430 sounds awesome, now that's rubbish, have ever heard a 355, or a 275?? The same people think the 599 was an amazing drivers car when in fact even Ferrari privately admitted to owners that the car is too soft for spirited driving (hence the hideously expensive HGTE upgrade pack).
I'm sorry pal, I know and love my Ferraris wayy to much to undermine their truly great cars by unequivocally loving their latest products and basing my opinion on some journos rose-tinted 1 day driving view.
What's interesting on THIS occasion is that Sutters (reviewer) has hit the nail on the head definitively and Gene has made a PR gaffe by saying the car is better with the electrics.... (no doubt someone at Ferrari will have a go at him for that).
I'm so Sorry to sound so patronising - it's not my intention, but your post was child like.
Basically, get into a 599 GTO after a driving a Clio RS and the Ferrari will be awesome (journo). Get into one after having a go in your mates F50 and you'll think you're playing a playstation game.
Murcielago_Boy said:
chelme said:
Murcielago_Boy said:
Dagnut said:
Some people like going fast...
always the same complaints when a new Ferrari arrives..too many electronics..we want fast light Ferraris.. blah blah blah..you can turn them off as always. Based on a 599 this was never going to be a light weight nimble car..what were you all expecting?
Sorry mate. I hate to disagree when it comes to a new Ferrari but this fake GTO thing (homolgated for nothing) is little more than a technical exercise.always the same complaints when a new Ferrari arrives..too many electronics..we want fast light Ferraris.. blah blah blah..you can turn them off as always. Based on a 599 this was never going to be a light weight nimble car..what were you all expecting?
If I may give a quick lecture:
I've experienced this in the 430 Scuderia - the diff basically juggles the power between inside and outside wheels during cornering to ensure that the car matches your steering trajectory. Understeer, and then drive is transferred to the outside rear. Oversteer, and then it's transferred to the inside rear.It's simultaneously amazingly competent and TOTALLY uninvolving.
In addition, too fast going in or too much powering out outright and the computers will brake wheels independently and/or cut power as well - with the overall balance tending toward understeer.
So - Head into a corner and the diff/stability + brakes etc stabilise you and turn you in.
Get to the apex, floor the throttle and the TC, diff etc power you out.
... HOW F**KING BORING IS THAT??
So then you turn it all off...
...And whoa, the car's handling is an absolute mess - massive understeer on the way in (blame the suspension geometry - Ferrari keep setting the cars up for the US market) followed by unpredictable oversteer on the way out (as the e-diff doesn't know how the deploy the power because it's meant to work with the electronics) and nasty momentum oversteer during high-speed cornering.
So then you switch it back on and say "F**K THIS"
Everyone who says the Caterhams/Elises etc will be better are 1 BILLION percent right... it's just no-one would admit it having spent £300 large on this video game.
Edited by Murcielago_Boy on Tuesday 1st June 16:00
Edited by Murcielago_Boy on Tuesday 1st June 15:59
Autocar:
http://www.autocar.co.uk/CarReviews/RoadTestsVerdi...
Car Magazine:
http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Drives/Search-Results...
Evo:
http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evocarreviews/2102...
What Car magazine:
http://www.whatcar.com/car-news/uk-drive-ferrari-4...
Road and Track (USA):
http://www.roadandtrack.com/tests/drives/2008-ferr...
Auto Sport (Germany):
http://www.sportauto-online.de/supertest/ferrari-4...
all of which strongly suggests that your purported lecture on the subject is in fact utter rubbish Murcielago_Boy
As for the journos - well I couldn't care less about their opinion. Perhaps I should have trained as a professional driver, borrowed my 430 Scuderia from Ferrari, thrashed it round a circuit for a day, and then given it back (ensuring I only write positive material otherwise they'll never lend the company I work for a car again) and gone back to evaluating hatches etc for a more "accurate" opinion.....
Hell, I've only owned the car - what do I know right?
Sorry pal, If I want to know how a new Ferrari drives, I'm fortunate enough (despite not having had many example) that I can go to Maranello, Italy (or Wandsworth
) and drive one. I don't need a journalist to rate it for me.Their opinion is utterly meaningless - as it's ME spending MY money and not them....
On release, these people said that the 360 was a great handling car (now widely regarding as a very twitchy machine) - it took them almost 9 years to realise the F50 was one of the greatest Ferraris ever made (after being panned by testers initially) - It took them almost a decade and a half to to realise the 288 is actually a more exciting and even more raw car than the deeply compromised F40. The same testers think that 430 sounds awesome, now that's rubbish, have ever heard a 355, or a 275?? The same people think the 599 was an amazing drivers car when in fact even Ferrari privately admitted to owners that the car is too soft for spirited driving (hence the hideously expensive HGTE upgrade pack).
I'm sorry pal, I know and love my Ferraris wayy to much to undermine their truly great cars by unequivocally loving their latest products and basing my opinion on some journos rose-tinted 1 day driving view.
What's interesting on THIS occasion is that Sutters (reviewer) has hit the nail on the head definitively and Gene has made a PR gaffe by saying the car is better with the electrics.... (no doubt someone at Ferrari will have a go at him for that).
I'm so Sorry to sound so patronising - it's not my intention, but your post was child like.
Basically, get into a 599 GTO after a driving a Clio RS and the Ferrari will be awesome (journo). Get into one after having a go in your mates F50 and you'll think you're playing a playstation game.
Some would derive just as much enjoyment out of a Elise or a Caterham (for they may value the way that a car handles more than, say, the sound emitted from a V12), you liked your mates F50, some actually like the 348, another Ferrari 'twitchy on the limit' but 'very rewarding'(I'm quoting people who have driven this car) when driven skillfully etc.
As for the noise, I'd agree that the Ferrari's of old, especially the colombo engined 250s and 275s sound the greatest and having heard a 430 driven past at normal speeds the flat plane V8 sounds like a four pot, but I have also heard a 430 on full tap and it does scream. Granted maybe not as sweet as a 355 (or dare I say a 348) engine does, but you have to remember that these engines were in the same ball park in terms of cubic inches as the old timers. I think that the smaller the engine capacity and the greater the number of cylinders the higher pitch the screams going to be (check out the 1.5 lite V16 produced by B.R.M. in the 50s)
I have to disagree with your comments on retrospective enlightenment. The 360 was criticized for being twitchy when it was first tested by a number of test drivers. The aesthetics were also criticized when compared to the 355.
The 599 was also panned by some critics for its understeer characteristics, but when you have a car with a 6 litre V12 at the front, you cant expect balanced cornering quality without electronic aids. Similarly when you have this amount of power on a road car you need assistance dealing with the forces at hand because only a few skilled drivers will actually be able to tame these beasts-(well done to sutters for being one of these)Not everyone who buys these cars has an Advanced Drivers/Race Licence.
You cannot compare fairly the old and the new. The old cars were not dogged with emissions regulations and red tape on safety, thats why the old timers sound pure and are lighter. New production cars (that are habitable) are naturally heavier because of safety regulations (once you put V8's and V12 in them) and they have had to find creative ways of producing great sounding power plants.
Ferrari have been bold enough to admit the use of electronics on their cars and I respect that. Any one who celebrates technological advancements would respect it and I for one appreciate what they have done with this 599 GTO.
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