Discussion
Welshbeef said:
The statement that a car cannot handle the bumpy nature of the trade just doesnt fit - engineers will change the setup of the car to suit the nature of the circuit not like that of the snooker table smoothness of F1 racing track.
One question here Silverstone GP F1 car hit 1min 32 ish What did Moto GP do? Then what did the Porche Supercup cars manage?
The F1 cars didnt like the bump too much however the 911's certainly handled the bump with ease.
Note Im not talking about smashing the 130mph time here - which a car may well do - just hammering the 100mph average by that vitesse 2.7ltr v6 n/a
My response above was merely to quieten the daft comments that some people came out with.One question here Silverstone GP F1 car hit 1min 32 ish What did Moto GP do? Then what did the Porche Supercup cars manage?
The F1 cars didnt like the bump too much however the 911's certainly handled the bump with ease.
Note Im not talking about smashing the 130mph time here - which a car may well do - just hammering the 100mph average by that vitesse 2.7ltr v6 n/a
In answer to your original question, yes of course, Tony Pond's time could easily be beaten, probably even by a modern hot hatch.
An answer to your other question, the Moto GP new lap record for the revised Silverstone GP circuit is a 2:03 if I remember rightly. I can't find the Supercup times I'm afraid, but judging from some times I found for the previous configurations, I'd expect something in the low 2s. A racing car based on a road going GT car is probably not the best starting point for a bike and car comparison though, unless we're comparing with a racing Goldwing
It might be relevant if the criteria was to lap the TT circuit with a couple of passengers playing travel scrabble or something 
Rude-boy said:
A Radical would be as useless as an F3 car in a number of places around the course. The only thing that would have the suspension would be a tarmac spec rally car.
Really?! Are you sure about that? I've never been to the IOM, but am a keen follower of the race on TV and I don't recall ever seeing anything on the footage that suggests anything out of the ordinary. There are plenty of single seaters competing in hill climbs that look far bumpier than the IOM course. Don't they have a kart race there? Karts don't have any suspension at all!RobM77 said:
I don't wish to sound big headed here, but there's some huge assumptions going on here which simply aren't true.
True, but with the IOM there isn't much kerb you could take in many places without the end result being the biggest, and possibly the last, crash of you life. Bikes also have a lot more room, due to their smaller size to be 'thrown' by a bump and still be on the track. There just isn't as much room to play with in a car.- Bumps do not somehow magically affect only cars, and even cars with downforce can take bumps just as well, if not better than a bike (they've got four wheels after all!). All categories take serious kerb going into and out of corners like Eau Rouge, 130R, the new Abbey etc. The ring, which I quoted times from, is not a polished smooth surface!
RobM77 said:
- People always say that the bikes are narrower, so they don't need to slow down so much. That's true, but twists and turns exist on all tracks - they aren't unique to the IOM.
. You can't, you will destroy a wheel at the very least! Sure there are many sections where a car would be as quick as a bike, but there are some bits where a car could never get close. Just think of that stupid 'wiggle' they had to put in on the exit of Woodcote at Silverstone a few years ago. No car could do that as fast as a well ridden top class race bike.RobM77 said:
- People seem to assume that there are road cars, and then there are F1 cars. There are loads of different categories of car out there racing today. They don't all need billiard table smooth tracks, and the setups can be varied to suit different surfaces.
RobM77 said:
- People seem to think that a WRC car or CSR Caterham is fast. These people need to have a go in a Radical or an F3 car! Both will out-accelerate, out corner and out brake a fast bike without breaking a sweat.
RobM77 said:
- Someone quoted the danger of driving a Superkart as a show stopper. Surely this is no more dangerous than riding a bike?!
. Again i agree with you. There's no way in hell you would get me trying to do a quick time on or in either of them RobM77 said:
* Plenty of F3000, FRenault and F3 cars run at hill climbs around Europe and do just fine.
Two words:- Ballaugh Bridge RobM77 said:
- The fastest recorded bike time around the Nurburgring (which is similar to the IOM course with its hill and fast sections etc) is equivalent to a 7:40 at the most optimistic. 7:40 can be beaten by plenty of big soft road cars on road tyres (even a comfort spec 911 C2S can do a 7:50). Racing cars are much faster still. The fact remains that there is no way on this earth a Porsche 962 (or similar sports racer) capable of 6m11s around the ring is going to lap 1m30s slower if the track got a little bit more bumpy.
RobM77 said:
Rude-boy said:
A Radical would be as useless as an F3 car in a number of places around the course. The only thing that would have the suspension would be a tarmac spec rally car.
Really?! Are you sure about that? I've never been to the IOM, but am a keen follower of the race on TV and I don't recall ever seeing anything on the footage that suggests anything out of the ordinary. There are plenty of single seaters competing in hill climbs that look far bumpier than the IOM course. Don't they have a kart race there? Karts don't have any suspension at all!Gun said:
whereas anything but a high down force race car would need to slow down for them.
This being the key point. A proper race car with slicks and wings is going to make any bike look slow on any track, bumps or narrowness will not make any difference. The incredible speed of some of the single seater hillclimb cars bears this out.However, its not going to happen at the IOM, the car would just be too fast; those flat out sections on the mountain would be insanely quick.
As for road cars; argue away.
SS7
Smiler. said:
Max_Torque said:
said blaaa blaaa blaa
None of those clips reflect the IOM course. Sorry, but that's just complete nonsense 
Sorry if that seems rude!
Are you seriously suggesting that a bike capable of a 7m40s around the ring is going to magically find an extra two minutes over an F1 car just because the road's a bit bumpy and there's the odd section where a car would have to wiggle left and right whereas the bike could straight line it?
Straigtening out curves occurs for all corners at all tracks, not just tight sections, so this factor is built in to every lap time comparison you see - it doesn't just magically appear at the IOM. Even through a section such as the Hatzenbach at the ring, a car will travel a significantly greater distance than a bike, but the car is still significantly quicker because of its inherent advantages over the bike in lateral g and braking (and no, I'm not talking about downforce, even a Caterham R500 can outlap an R1 which has double the power to weight ratio).
Surely you can see this, given the IOM time that Pond did in that creaky old Rover? If you work out the proportions based on the performance of the Rover, it all checks out with the ring time comparisons that I've given.
Sorry if that seems rude!Are you seriously suggesting that a bike capable of a 7m40s around the ring is going to magically find an extra two minutes over an F1 car just because the road's a bit bumpy and there's the odd section where a car would have to wiggle left and right whereas the bike could straight line it?
Straigtening out curves occurs for all corners at all tracks, not just tight sections, so this factor is built in to every lap time comparison you see - it doesn't just magically appear at the IOM. Even through a section such as the Hatzenbach at the ring, a car will travel a significantly greater distance than a bike, but the car is still significantly quicker because of its inherent advantages over the bike in lateral g and braking (and no, I'm not talking about downforce, even a Caterham R500 can outlap an R1 which has double the power to weight ratio).
Surely you can see this, given the IOM time that Pond did in that creaky old Rover? If you work out the proportions based on the performance of the Rover, it all checks out with the ring time comparisons that I've given.
RobM77 said:
Sorry, but that's just complete nonsense Sorry if that seems rude!
Are you seriously suggesting that a bike capable of a 7m40s around the ring is going to magically find an extra two minutes over an F1 car just because the road's a bit bumpy and there's the odd section where a car would have to wiggle left and right whereas the bike could straight line it?
Straigtening out curves occurs for all corners at all tracks, not just tight sections, so this factor is built in to every lap time comparison you see - it doesn't just magically appear at the IOM. Even through a section such as the Hatzenbach at the ring, a car will travel a significantly greater distance than a bike, but the car is still significantly quicker because of its inherent advantages over the bike in lateral g and braking (and no, I'm not talking about downforce, even a Caterham R500 can outlap an R1 which has double the power to weight ratio).
Surely you can see this, given the IOM time that Pond did in that creaky old Rover? If you work out the proportions based on the performance of the Rover, it all checks out with the ring time comparisons that I've given.
Rob, go the IOM, drive the circuit. Then report back Sorry if that seems rude!Are you seriously suggesting that a bike capable of a 7m40s around the ring is going to magically find an extra two minutes over an F1 car just because the road's a bit bumpy and there's the odd section where a car would have to wiggle left and right whereas the bike could straight line it?
Straigtening out curves occurs for all corners at all tracks, not just tight sections, so this factor is built in to every lap time comparison you see - it doesn't just magically appear at the IOM. Even through a section such as the Hatzenbach at the ring, a car will travel a significantly greater distance than a bike, but the car is still significantly quicker because of its inherent advantages over the bike in lateral g and braking (and no, I'm not talking about downforce, even a Caterham R500 can outlap an R1 which has double the power to weight ratio).
Surely you can see this, given the IOM time that Pond did in that creaky old Rover? If you work out the proportions based on the performance of the Rover, it all checks out with the ring time comparisons that I've given.
Comparing bikes and cars only works with a level playing field. Bikes are not allowed to produce down-force in racing trim. If compared to an equivalent car without downforce they perform in a broadly similar fashion (on tarmac).
Comparing lap-time on racing circuits is pointless as cars and bikes almost never run the same courses. Car course are wider and straighter where-ever possible.The 'ring looks nothing like the TT course - it's much wider circuit. More suited to cars than bikes.
Bikes times are none the less pretty good. Fastest stock bike used to be the MV Augusta with a BTG of 7:21. This time being set on a normal day rather than a closed circuit like Nissan et al use. It's also worth noting that the MV is not considered the quickest production bike by a long stretch - all the times are un-official so done by magazines and the like. Given Sportauto (SP?) don't seem to get that close to the 'special' times head-lined by car manufacturers I suspect that if Ducati or BMW were to buy time on the circuit for a suitable timeframe and then have one of their top development riders pound out laps you'd see the times fall. Even moreso if they to fit slicks as the most recent times posted have benefitted.
Ultimately a down-force car should be able to beat the bike lap-times - they are just (heavily) tuned production bikes (closer to GT1 than F1 in essence).
Anyway wasn't the point about being quicker than a Rover? If so I can't see why that can't be bettered. Guy Martin in his Aston (when he's back on his feet) would be a good candidate.
Comparing lap-time on racing circuits is pointless as cars and bikes almost never run the same courses. Car course are wider and straighter where-ever possible.The 'ring looks nothing like the TT course - it's much wider circuit. More suited to cars than bikes.
Bikes times are none the less pretty good. Fastest stock bike used to be the MV Augusta with a BTG of 7:21. This time being set on a normal day rather than a closed circuit like Nissan et al use. It's also worth noting that the MV is not considered the quickest production bike by a long stretch - all the times are un-official so done by magazines and the like. Given Sportauto (SP?) don't seem to get that close to the 'special' times head-lined by car manufacturers I suspect that if Ducati or BMW were to buy time on the circuit for a suitable timeframe and then have one of their top development riders pound out laps you'd see the times fall. Even moreso if they to fit slicks as the most recent times posted have benefitted.
Ultimately a down-force car should be able to beat the bike lap-times - they are just (heavily) tuned production bikes (closer to GT1 than F1 in essence).
Anyway wasn't the point about being quicker than a Rover? If so I can't see why that can't be bettered. Guy Martin in his Aston (when he's back on his feet) would be a good candidate.
Max_Torque said:
Smiler. said:
Max_Torque said:
said blaaa blaaa blaa
None of those clips reflect the IOM course. Smiler. said:
RobM77 said:
Sorry, but that's just complete nonsense Sorry if that seems rude!
Are you seriously suggesting that a bike capable of a 7m40s around the ring is going to magically find an extra two minutes over an F1 car just because the road's a bit bumpy and there's the odd section where a car would have to wiggle left and right whereas the bike could straight line it?
Straigtening out curves occurs for all corners at all tracks, not just tight sections, so this factor is built in to every lap time comparison you see - it doesn't just magically appear at the IOM. Even through a section such as the Hatzenbach at the ring, a car will travel a significantly greater distance than a bike, but the car is still significantly quicker because of its inherent advantages over the bike in lateral g and braking (and no, I'm not talking about downforce, even a Caterham R500 can outlap an R1 which has double the power to weight ratio).
Surely you can see this, given the IOM time that Pond did in that creaky old Rover? If you work out the proportions based on the performance of the Rover, it all checks out with the ring time comparisons that I've given.
Rob, go the IOM, drive the circuit. Then report back Sorry if that seems rude!Are you seriously suggesting that a bike capable of a 7m40s around the ring is going to magically find an extra two minutes over an F1 car just because the road's a bit bumpy and there's the odd section where a car would have to wiggle left and right whereas the bike could straight line it?
Straigtening out curves occurs for all corners at all tracks, not just tight sections, so this factor is built in to every lap time comparison you see - it doesn't just magically appear at the IOM. Even through a section such as the Hatzenbach at the ring, a car will travel a significantly greater distance than a bike, but the car is still significantly quicker because of its inherent advantages over the bike in lateral g and braking (and no, I'm not talking about downforce, even a Caterham R500 can outlap an R1 which has double the power to weight ratio).
Surely you can see this, given the IOM time that Pond did in that creaky old Rover? If you work out the proportions based on the performance of the Rover, it all checks out with the ring time comparisons that I've given.
I'm not sure that's necessary for an argument so obvious as this one. I've watched every IOM race on TV for the last fifteen years, I've raced on all manner of different circuits for ten years in a variety of cars from saloons to single seaters, and I've driven on a variety of roads across the whole of the UK and Europe (bar the IOM!). I've even driven a couple of fully raced prepped Caterhams quickly down rough country lanes in both the UK and Germany. To top that we have Tony Pond's time in the Rover to compare with the bike times, and a whole host of times from hill climbs on closed public roads, nurburgring lap times etc from bikes and cars. The IOM is a special place, but it's not that special. Tarmac, bumps, stone walls, bridges etc are not unique to the IOM! I'm not getting sucked into the which is faster debate - once a year is quite enough.
If any car had a chance, I would imagine this would.
Rhys Millen's Hyundai special - group C meets WRC. 4WD, active aero, big power.
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2010/04/rhys-mi...
If any car had a chance, I would imagine this would.
Rhys Millen's Hyundai special - group C meets WRC. 4WD, active aero, big power.
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2010/04/rhys-mi...
RobM77 said:
Sorry, but that's just complete nonsense Sorry if that seems rude!
Are you seriously suggesting that a bike capable of a 7m40s around the ring is going to magically find an extra two minutes over an F1 car just because the road's a bit bumpy and there's the odd section where a car would have to wiggle left and right whereas the bike could straight line it?
Straigtening out curves occurs for all corners at all tracks, not just tight sections, so this factor is built in to every lap time comparison you see - it doesn't just magically appear at the IOM. Even through a section such as the Hatzenbach at the ring, a car will travel a significantly greater distance than a bike, but the car is still significantly quicker because of its inherent advantages over the bike in lateral g and braking (and no, I'm not talking about downforce, even a Caterham R500 can outlap an R1 which has double the power to weight ratio).
Surely you can see this, given the IOM time that Pond did in that creaky old Rover? If you work out the proportions based on the performance of the Rover, it all checks out with the ring time comparisons that I've given.
Rob I have to get on with some work, and I know you have said you are an avid follower of the TT on the TV but I suggest that you go out there an drive the track, then come back on here and tell me that you would even consider taking an F1 car round there.* Sorry if that seems rude!Are you seriously suggesting that a bike capable of a 7m40s around the ring is going to magically find an extra two minutes over an F1 car just because the road's a bit bumpy and there's the odd section where a car would have to wiggle left and right whereas the bike could straight line it?
Straigtening out curves occurs for all corners at all tracks, not just tight sections, so this factor is built in to every lap time comparison you see - it doesn't just magically appear at the IOM. Even through a section such as the Hatzenbach at the ring, a car will travel a significantly greater distance than a bike, but the car is still significantly quicker because of its inherent advantages over the bike in lateral g and braking (and no, I'm not talking about downforce, even a Caterham R500 can outlap an R1 which has double the power to weight ratio).
Surely you can see this, given the IOM time that Pond did in that creaky old Rover? If you work out the proportions based on the performance of the Rover, it all checks out with the ring time comparisons that I've given.
As I have said the modifications you would have to make to the thing to be able to even get it to go round the bloody place would be a joke and seriously curb the significant advantages it undoubtedly has in other areas.
Now if you were to ask me what that fastest thing from Ramsey to Douglas would be I would say an F1 car, but that was not the question
- ETA how steep did you think Eau Rouge was before you first saw it in real life?
Edited by Rude-boy on Friday 16th July 15:13
Rude-boy said:
RobM77 said:
Sorry, but that's just complete nonsense Sorry if that seems rude!
Are you seriously suggesting that a bike capable of a 7m40s around the ring is going to magically find an extra two minutes over an F1 car just because the road's a bit bumpy and there's the odd section where a car would have to wiggle left and right whereas the bike could straight line it?
Straigtening out curves occurs for all corners at all tracks, not just tight sections, so this factor is built in to every lap time comparison you see - it doesn't just magically appear at the IOM. Even through a section such as the Hatzenbach at the ring, a car will travel a significantly greater distance than a bike, but the car is still significantly quicker because of its inherent advantages over the bike in lateral g and braking (and no, I'm not talking about downforce, even a Caterham R500 can outlap an R1 which has double the power to weight ratio).
Surely you can see this, given the IOM time that Pond did in that creaky old Rover? If you work out the proportions based on the performance of the Rover, it all checks out with the ring time comparisons that I've given.
Rob I have to get on with some work, and I know you have said you are an avid follower of the TT on the TV but I suggest that you go out there an drive the track, then come back on here and tell me that you would even consider taking an F1 car round there. Sorry if that seems rude!Are you seriously suggesting that a bike capable of a 7m40s around the ring is going to magically find an extra two minutes over an F1 car just because the road's a bit bumpy and there's the odd section where a car would have to wiggle left and right whereas the bike could straight line it?
Straigtening out curves occurs for all corners at all tracks, not just tight sections, so this factor is built in to every lap time comparison you see - it doesn't just magically appear at the IOM. Even through a section such as the Hatzenbach at the ring, a car will travel a significantly greater distance than a bike, but the car is still significantly quicker because of its inherent advantages over the bike in lateral g and braking (and no, I'm not talking about downforce, even a Caterham R500 can outlap an R1 which has double the power to weight ratio).
Surely you can see this, given the IOM time that Pond did in that creaky old Rover? If you work out the proportions based on the performance of the Rover, it all checks out with the ring time comparisons that I've given.
As I have said the modifications you would have to make to the thing to be able to even get it to go round the bloody place would be a joke and seriously curb the significant advantages it undoubtedly has in other areas.
Now if you were to ask me what that fastest thing from Ramsey to Douglas would be I would say an F1 car, but that was not the question
RobM77 said:
I'm not necessarily suggesting a Formula One car. A Pagani Zonda F can lap the ring faster than the quicker bike time that I've found; that would do.
I give up! For a start a Pagani is more than half as wide as the road in a lot of places.Go there and see it for yourself. I'm a car man through to the core and have driven and been driven in a lot of very special machinery. Even I will cede the TT course to the PowerRangers
Rude-boy said:
RobM77 said:
I'm not necessarily suggesting a Formula One car. A Pagani Zonda F can lap the ring faster than the quicker bike time that I've found; that would do.
I give up! For a start a Pagani is more than half as wide as the road in a lot of places.Go there and see it for yourself. I'm a car man through to the core and have driven and been driven in a lot of very special machinery. Even I will cede the TT course to the PowerRangers
I have ridden hundreds of IOM laps on Superbikes and watched the TT on course in all the usual locations.
I have done a lot of uk tracks in cars and on bikes.
The IOM is not some magical place where the laws of physics don't apply and it's certainly not as bumpy as some sprint / hillclimbs.
I am sure the right car would beat the bikes. It would be a modified hillclimb car (3.5 Gould or Pilbeam type device) or a big GT sports but entirley possible given the events these do in Europe where they allways muller bikes.
I have seen cars held up by bikes on the IOM in deristricted areas - a very fast caterham and a full on Toyota Celica GT4 rally car I can recall giving some of my Fireblade & R1 riding chums a shock a few years back.
Brakes, rubber contact patch, ultimate accelaration i.e. getting the power down over rougher asphalt, stability and pilot fatigue are all superior in a car.
See & believe!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdzNWPmKYB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XqpfZmUXUM&fea...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTve931r9Qw&fea...
I have done a lot of uk tracks in cars and on bikes.
The IOM is not some magical place where the laws of physics don't apply and it's certainly not as bumpy as some sprint / hillclimbs.
I am sure the right car would beat the bikes. It would be a modified hillclimb car (3.5 Gould or Pilbeam type device) or a big GT sports but entirley possible given the events these do in Europe where they allways muller bikes.
I have seen cars held up by bikes on the IOM in deristricted areas - a very fast caterham and a full on Toyota Celica GT4 rally car I can recall giving some of my Fireblade & R1 riding chums a shock a few years back.
Brakes, rubber contact patch, ultimate accelaration i.e. getting the power down over rougher asphalt, stability and pilot fatigue are all superior in a car.
See & believe!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdzNWPmKYB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XqpfZmUXUM&fea...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTve931r9Qw&fea...
Edited by racingsnake on Friday 16th July 15:42
Edited by racingsnake on Friday 16th July 15:50
Edited by racingsnake on Friday 16th July 15:53
freecar said:
Welshbeef said:
freecar said:
Welshbeef said:
Note Im not talking about smashing the 130mph time here - which a car may well do - just hammering the 100mph average by that vitesse 2.7ltr v6 n/a
Guys, calm down, he's admitted to the trollery! To answer your question yes a newer car could beat the old car's time! FFS Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff