Discussion
Rude-boy said:
RobM77 said:
I'm not necessarily suggesting a Formula One car. A Pagani Zonda F can lap the ring faster than the quicker bike time that I've found; that would do.
I give up! For a start a Pagani is more than half as wide as the road in a lot of places.Go there and see it for yourself. I'm a car man through to the core and have driven and been driven in a lot of very special machinery. Even I will cede the TT course to the PowerRangers
As someone says above, cars are quicker than bikes on all the other circuits out there, and the laws of physics are the same on the IOM. In actual fact, it's the fast flowing circuits like the IOM or the Ring where cars have the biggest advantage. Braking from 180mph for a slow corner reveals huge differences, as does stability and grip up on the mountain section when cornering at 150mph+.
Bikes are absolutely fantastic, and I don't think realising that they're slower than cars around these sorts of circuits need dampen anyone's enthusiasm for them.
Anyone know what the lap time at the ring of the rover vitesse is? If so then we could model back what other cars could do at iom and hence get average speed
note it was also a standing start so a flying lap would be even quicker in that old shed sorry vitesse.
Christ I wonder how much faster a cossie from that era could do it 115mph ave at the very least.
note it was also a standing start so a flying lap would be even quicker in that old shed sorry vitesse.
Christ I wonder how much faster a cossie from that era could do it 115mph ave at the very least.
RobM77 said:
Rude-boy said:
RobM77 said:
I'm not necessarily suggesting a Formula One car. A Pagani Zonda F can lap the ring faster than the quicker bike time that I've found; that would do.
I give up! For a start a Pagani is more than half as wide as the road in a lot of places.Go there and see it for yourself. I'm a car man through to the core and have driven and been driven in a lot of very special machinery. Even I will cede the TT course to the PowerRangers
As someone says above, cars are quicker than bikes on all the other circuits out there, and the laws of physics are the same on the IOM. In actual fact, it's the fast flowing circuits like the IOM or the Ring where cars have the biggest advantage. Braking from 180mph for a slow corner reveals huge differences, as does stability and grip up on the mountain section when cornering at 150mph+.
Bikes are absolutely fantastic, and I don't think realising that they're slower than cars around these sorts of circuits need dampen anyone's enthusiasm for them.
Racingsnake.
Prudance would suggest to me that I bow to your superior experiance of bikes over mine.
But I'm an idiot sometimes.
Something many may have noticed but not really taken on board. Camber. UK (and the IOM TT roads) have a serious crown that European roads rearly have to the same degree. Shelsley, Prescott, et al are all surfaced with Hillclimbing in mind. Looking at those vids you posted very few sections of those courses had much, if any of a crown to them. There was also nothing like Gooseneck, the hairpins at Douglas and certainly no Ballaugh Bridge to deal with!
Sure over the Mountain it isn't hard to give even the fastest bikes a hard time.
As I think I have said something like one of Rod Millen's PP specials might get close but I will have to see it before I espouse it to be true!
Prudance would suggest to me that I bow to your superior experiance of bikes over mine.
But I'm an idiot sometimes.
Something many may have noticed but not really taken on board. Camber. UK (and the IOM TT roads) have a serious crown that European roads rearly have to the same degree. Shelsley, Prescott, et al are all surfaced with Hillclimbing in mind. Looking at those vids you posted very few sections of those courses had much, if any of a crown to them. There was also nothing like Gooseneck, the hairpins at Douglas and certainly no Ballaugh Bridge to deal with!
Sure over the Mountain it isn't hard to give even the fastest bikes a hard time.
As I think I have said something like one of Rod Millen's PP specials might get close but I will have to see it before I espouse it to be true!
Welshbeef said:
Anyone know what the lap time at the ring of the rover vitesse is? If so then we could model back what other cars could do at iom and hence get average speed
note it was also a standing start so a flying lap would be even quicker in that old shed sorry vitesse.
I don't know, but looking at the lap times at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%BCrburgring_lap_... I would guess at about 9 minutes to 9:15s, given that car was standard? There's no way it would be quicker than a modern coupe putting out more power with modern brakes, suspension and tyres, such as the VW Scirroco 2.0 TSi listed at 8m47s. The Rover did a 22 minute lap time around the IOM course (100mph), which is about 2.4 times its ring time. Using the same ratios, we can estimate that a Nissan GTR would do the IOM course in just under 18 minutes, a 962 in around 15 minutes and a Radical SR8 on road tyres in about 16m15s. The current lap record for bikes is 17m12s.note it was also a standing start so a flying lap would be even quicker in that old shed sorry vitesse.
edited to say: I'm not sure the Rover could do a 9:15... I'd like to find out though
In reply to Rude boy.
Hope this doesn't sound like top trumping and sorry if it does but im a roads engineer too, and I can say european roads do have camber (it still rains in Germany) and at those speeds you wouldn't be noticing on a mini camera any camber.
The IOM course is surfaced with the TT in mind believe me, it's got Clause 942 BBA/HAPAS approved Stone Mastic Asphalt thin surface course on the majority of it, not patchworks of old HRA like the UK network. The surface is a lot better than some sprints I could mention.
Remember the sidecars are about the least ergonomic vehicle around and they do 126mph laps with a 600cc motor and two fat blokes in baggy leathers, 3 wheels and no suspension travel!
How much quicker would an F3000 be on any track than a chair?
There are a couple of tight corners a bit like Gooseneck on some of the links on the youtube page if you check out the other films. I think thats misleading anyhow as some bikes have to go so slow round there they have toppled over (the great Joey Dunlop for one! RIP).
The B-bridge I concede would be awful for a F3000 and they would have to slow down to almost crawl over diagonally but thats 20ft of 37.5 miles and the speed differentail elsewhere would take that back I think.
I love bikes as much as cars and used to think bikes where unbeatable, but in the last few years I have been exposed to properly fast cars and I think now they could easily do it.
Hope this doesn't sound like top trumping and sorry if it does but im a roads engineer too, and I can say european roads do have camber (it still rains in Germany) and at those speeds you wouldn't be noticing on a mini camera any camber.
The IOM course is surfaced with the TT in mind believe me, it's got Clause 942 BBA/HAPAS approved Stone Mastic Asphalt thin surface course on the majority of it, not patchworks of old HRA like the UK network. The surface is a lot better than some sprints I could mention.
Remember the sidecars are about the least ergonomic vehicle around and they do 126mph laps with a 600cc motor and two fat blokes in baggy leathers, 3 wheels and no suspension travel!
How much quicker would an F3000 be on any track than a chair?
There are a couple of tight corners a bit like Gooseneck on some of the links on the youtube page if you check out the other films. I think thats misleading anyhow as some bikes have to go so slow round there they have toppled over (the great Joey Dunlop for one! RIP).
The B-bridge I concede would be awful for a F3000 and they would have to slow down to almost crawl over diagonally but thats 20ft of 37.5 miles and the speed differentail elsewhere would take that back I think.
I love bikes as much as cars and used to think bikes where unbeatable, but in the last few years I have been exposed to properly fast cars and I think now they could easily do it.
racingsnake said:
In reply to Rude boy.
Hope this doesn't sound like top trumping and sorry if it does but im a roads engineer too, and I can say european roads do have camber (it still rains in Germany) and at those speeds you wouldn't be noticing on a mini camera any camber.
The IOM course is surfaced with the TT in mind believe me, it's got Clause 942 BBA/HAPAS approved Stone Mastic Asphalt thin surface course on the majority of it, not patchworks of old HRA like the UK network. The surface is a lot better than some sprints I could mention.
Remember the sidecars are about the least ergonomic vehicle around and they do 126mph laps with a 600cc motor and two fat blokes in baggy leathers, 3 wheels and no suspension travel!
How much quicker would an F3000 be on any track than a chair?
There are a couple of tight corners a bit like Gooseneck on some of the links on the youtube page if you check out the other films. I think thats misleading anyhow as some bikes have to go so slow round there they have toppled over (the great Joey Dunlop for one! RIP).
The B-bridge I concede would be awful for a F3000 and they would have to slow down to almost crawl over diagonally but thats 20ft of 37.5 miles and the speed differentail elsewhere would take that back I think.
I love bikes as much as cars and used to think bikes where unbeatable, but in the last few years I have been exposed to properly fast cars and I think now they could easily do it.
Some very good points. In essence, a single seater like an F3000 is just a sidecar with one extra tyre, downforce and proper suspension. The wheelbase is longer, but that's an advantage in most locations, other than that humpback bridge, which as you say I don't think is going to change the result over a 37 mile lap.Hope this doesn't sound like top trumping and sorry if it does but im a roads engineer too, and I can say european roads do have camber (it still rains in Germany) and at those speeds you wouldn't be noticing on a mini camera any camber.
The IOM course is surfaced with the TT in mind believe me, it's got Clause 942 BBA/HAPAS approved Stone Mastic Asphalt thin surface course on the majority of it, not patchworks of old HRA like the UK network. The surface is a lot better than some sprints I could mention.
Remember the sidecars are about the least ergonomic vehicle around and they do 126mph laps with a 600cc motor and two fat blokes in baggy leathers, 3 wheels and no suspension travel!
How much quicker would an F3000 be on any track than a chair?
There are a couple of tight corners a bit like Gooseneck on some of the links on the youtube page if you check out the other films. I think thats misleading anyhow as some bikes have to go so slow round there they have toppled over (the great Joey Dunlop for one! RIP).
The B-bridge I concede would be awful for a F3000 and they would have to slow down to almost crawl over diagonally but thats 20ft of 37.5 miles and the speed differentail elsewhere would take that back I think.
I love bikes as much as cars and used to think bikes where unbeatable, but in the last few years I have been exposed to properly fast cars and I think now they could easily do it.
The other thing worth mentioning is that the performance of a proper racing car really is in a different league to a road car (a greater difference than a road bike to a race bike). Here's an interesting point: most safety cars are of the performance of Pond's Rover Vitesse, and when we do safety car laps (I race an old Formula Renault), I'm in first gear and it really does feel like I could get out and walk; I'm watching the gauges for overheating, struggling to keep heat in the brakes and tyres etc, but according to my friends who've watched me race, the safety car is right on the limit at this point, wheels squealing and everything!
Regarding the surfacing, to a layman (of tarmac!) it does indeed look a lot better than Shelsey Walsh or Prescott, both of which have very fast single seaters running on them - downforce and everything. These hill climbs are only about 7 foot wide and riddled with hairpins etc.
I vote for a laptime shootout using some cars at next year's TT. It'd be fun!
Only about 40mph!! I was getting the impression. From the crew who say bike is faster it was a big speed say 100mph plus 40 Christ if you cannot take a car over a humpback bridge at that speed something wrong there. I've been airborne over humpbacks before not on purpose came without notice sign hidden by foiledge must have been 40odd mph not pleasant luckily straight and my road car didn't bottom out not even hit bump stops so bring it on
Honest the bridge is not taken very fast at all as it's on a bend, it looks good but go too fast and you will break bits cos it's more like a MX jump than a high speed yump. My ZXR750 had both wheels airborne at about 35mph - the copper on the other side was not impressed lol - blip of the throttle helped mind!
racingsnake said:
Honest the bridge is not taken very fast at all as it's on a bend, it looks good but go too fast and you will break bits cos it's more like a MX jump than a high speed yump. My ZXR750 had both wheels airborne at about 35mph - the copper on the other side was not impressed lol - blip of the throttle helped mind!
Most racers aren't getting that much air deliberately, because that means you're not accelerating. I believe it's quicker for the bikes to get just an inch or two of air and then come onto the throttle hard afterwards. And don't forget, a slicks and wings racing car will out accelerate a bike, so the advantage will be clawed back I'm sure for just that small section.racingsnake said:
Honest the bridge is not taken very fast at all as it's on a bend, it looks good but go too fast and you will break bits
I don't think a properly set up tarmac car will worry too much about a humpback bridge, the 4way proflex's on my tarmac car seem to be pretty much unbreakable, and there's the underside guards for stopping the final inch of a landing compression!! lol The dampers also have high speed blow off load limiting valves that allow you to hop full height vertical kerbs without breaking a wheel etc.no the big problem with the IOM course would be the necessary lack of imagination required from the driver as to what might happen if it went wrong, and i'm deffo getting too old for that..... ;-)
I agree with Max there i've waded into this debate before and it all ends with "yeh but who would be the driver!"
Thats an interesting one so ill throw my hat in the ring with this guy again - "Dave Molyneux" (sidecar legend) as his circiut knowledge would take most people years to gain.
Thats an interesting one so ill throw my hat in the ring with this guy again - "Dave Molyneux" (sidecar legend) as his circiut knowledge would take most people years to gain.
Having watched bike racing for more years than I care to remember, I'm pretty familiar with the Mountain Course (although I've not been there myself...), and there are a number of stretches where the big lads are either nudging or passing 200mph: through Bray Hill, a number of sections from Quarter Bridge to Union Mills, the Cronk-y-Voddy Straight, Sulby Straight, Brandish, and Hillberry. To get up to those sorts of speeds on those sections would need a mighty car. Rothmans 962 / Norma M20 spring to mind.
However.
I'm mindful of one thing. Braking.
Even on hot flying laps, with tyres up to temperature, they fly down Bray Hill at ca. 200mph then start braking for Quarter Bridge. And seem to brake very early. And I reckon a sorted car (like a 962 or a Radical SR-8LM) would brake for that corner way, way later than the bike. This would hold true for other big braking points such as The Creg.
However.
I'm mindful of one thing. Braking.
Even on hot flying laps, with tyres up to temperature, they fly down Bray Hill at ca. 200mph then start braking for Quarter Bridge. And seem to brake very early. And I reckon a sorted car (like a 962 or a Radical SR-8LM) would brake for that corner way, way later than the bike. This would hold true for other big braking points such as The Creg.
couldn't be bothered to read the whole thread, so forgive me if it was already suggested
- sounds like an interesting question and one that could be right up Red Bull's alley - they might be interested in proving a car can be faster - if it generates enough publicity (aren't they spnosoring Loeb and a few of those crazy Pikes Peak people?) Loeb would seem like a good candidate with a WRC car ...
anyway I don't know anybody there, but given the vast Pistonheads member network, I'm sure there is somebody who does
ok kinda useless post, but anyway
- sounds like an interesting question and one that could be right up Red Bull's alley - they might be interested in proving a car can be faster - if it generates enough publicity (aren't they spnosoring Loeb and a few of those crazy Pikes Peak people?) Loeb would seem like a good candidate with a WRC car ...
anyway I don't know anybody there, but given the vast Pistonheads member network, I'm sure there is somebody who does
ok kinda useless post, but anyway
Lets be honest, there is only one way to find out RACE!!!
.
You know this is the first time I can recall every trying to fight the bike corner and I suspect it may be the last as I may be getting the feeling I could be fighting a losing battle
.
.
So I think where we are coming to is that, other than the rarefied air of SR8's and the like, almost any stock bike with a good engine would be quicker around the course than a 'stock' car.
There may be one or two very special road cars which could be quick enough to beat a top spec stock bike and possibly the odd race bike.
A full on, event in mind, race car could be faster than a Senior TT race bike but whilst between us I am sure we could find a driver with sufficient skill and lack of imagination to try to prove it finding someone which a car capable of doing so who would be prepared to lend it to them and getting the permission to even try it might prove a little tricky
Ride and drive safe this weekend all!
.You know this is the first time I can recall every trying to fight the bike corner and I suspect it may be the last as I may be getting the feeling I could be fighting a losing battle
.racingsnake said:
Hope this doesn't sound like top trumping and sorry if it does but I'm a roads engineer...
Not at all, but you know how to piss on a man's chips .So I think where we are coming to is that, other than the rarefied air of SR8's and the like, almost any stock bike with a good engine would be quicker around the course than a 'stock' car.
There may be one or two very special road cars which could be quick enough to beat a top spec stock bike and possibly the odd race bike.
A full on, event in mind, race car could be faster than a Senior TT race bike but whilst between us I am sure we could find a driver with sufficient skill and lack of imagination to try to prove it finding someone which a car capable of doing so who would be prepared to lend it to them and getting the permission to even try it might prove a little tricky
Ride and drive safe this weekend all!
Edited by Rude-boy on Friday 16th July 19:28
Edited by Rude-boy on Friday 16th July 19:29
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