RE: Skoda: Rally Rather Good
Discussion
Pwig said:
The only problem is that Subaru and Mitsubishi would run away it with, and instead of doing 20 one offs, manufacturers would just say 'I can't be arsed with this' and not bother re-developing their whole product range at a cost of millions just to go rallying.
I'm not so sure.1. This is exactly what car makers used to do to a certain or greater extent.
2. AWD is still only the fastest on the loose, tarmac rallies could well still be won by 2wd machines and often in the early group B days were
3. There are other AWD vehicles out there. VW/Audi for starters, Alfa Romeo with the Brera. Fiat Panda, MINI Countryman. BMW sell a range of IX or XI badged AWD vehicles in the US/mainland Europe. In the recent past both Ford and Vuaxhall have sold AWD saloons/hatches.
I'm not convinced by the road car argument.
Two of the coolest "rally" cars - cars which would make me walk miles through a freezing cold keilder to see - are Monsters' and Rod Millan's pikes peak cars. Both two different approaches to the same problem, but both designed to travel as quickly as possible on a dirt road, and they look and sound awesome.
I have no interest whatsoever in my road car looking like a rallycar. My Evo despite being the grp N base model is so far removed from the old WRC car as to be pointless. I bought it because it has four seats and is pretty quick - not because of the WRC link. And before someone says you wouldn't have the road car without the WRC car - Nonsense. Manufacturers will make what people want to buy.
What I drive and what I want to go and see are two different animals.
Two of the coolest "rally" cars - cars which would make me walk miles through a freezing cold keilder to see - are Monsters' and Rod Millan's pikes peak cars. Both two different approaches to the same problem, but both designed to travel as quickly as possible on a dirt road, and they look and sound awesome.
I have no interest whatsoever in my road car looking like a rallycar. My Evo despite being the grp N base model is so far removed from the old WRC car as to be pointless. I bought it because it has four seats and is pretty quick - not because of the WRC link. And before someone says you wouldn't have the road car without the WRC car - Nonsense. Manufacturers will make what people want to buy.
What I drive and what I want to go and see are two different animals.
300bhp/ton said:
I don't think budget caps work. Also how do you truly enforce it? Seems like there would be far too much grey area.
Personally I think an easier way is make the cars closer to production cars. e.g.
To compete the car (and all components) must be full time production models, so no limited run of 20 cars or something silly which spiral costs. And must have produced say something more akin to 5000 units.
No, wouldn't work, with production components you'd be changing gearboxes, suspension and more after each stage of the Acropolis/1000 Lakes etc. Think back to the early days of GpN... Personally I think an easier way is make the cars closer to production cars. e.g.
To compete the car (and all components) must be full time production models, so no limited run of 20 cars or something silly which spiral costs. And must have produced say something more akin to 5000 units.
300bhp/ton said:
Allow any displacement and any transmission type, so long as it is that which is in the production vehicle. Then limit how far mods can go. e.g. no sequential gearboxes if the road car uses a H gate. No turbo's if the road car is n/a
No, again just not strong enough. WRC/IRC gearboxes now are pretty much bombproof but would never work in a production car.300bhp/ton said:
Some discussion and sanity limit on power/boost might be needed. But if it is all based on production components it would pretty much self limit this anyhow.
Yes, definitely power restriction of some sort - akin to the GTs an intake restrictor, but limit power to 300bhp - that's what they've got now and it's fine. You should remember that GpN cars these days are faster than GpB ever was.Using a production base with 5000 units has been done and it was crap - Group N. They had to change it to allow bigger brakes and stronger gearboxes and look what happened. The scooby and mitsi show.
No one really has any capable 4wd cars so the real economy is to allow very short run builds. I know that sounds daft but what they're proposing is actually very good from a cost/manufacturer/team perspective. The cost involved in doing a short run (5000) is staggeringly high for a car manufacturer and just to build a few a year is enough to compete at WRC level. The key to widening popularity is to build a championship which is then accepted at national level. That would mean there's a ready market for cars and the turnover would be higher.
The simplest cost reduction move would be to ban laptop-car connections on events - build something which is strong enough to cope and mapped for the event and rally it - if it can't be adjusted with a spanner or screwdriver then it's not allowed. Then you re-introduce mechanical diffs and add low damaging tyres and you're away
As soon as the speccys notice that there's some real competition then the interest will return.
irodger said:
Environmentalists are flushing motorsport in general down the pan.
'Consumers' apparently don't want to buy heavilly polluting cars, and as such manufacturers don't want to build cars specifically for motorsport that have no relation to what 'the consumer' wants. Hence, since the demise of homologation, motorsport in general has been pants for yeaars.
Although millions of rep-mobiles and hot hatches used to be sold on the basis of a manufacturer's motorsports success, or just their touring and rally cars looks/sound/drivers etc, its seems that times have changed and the uneducated, or rather ill-informed, public don't want to be seen driving a touring car wannabe these days. Much better to mention over a dinner party conversation that you're in love with rabbits than the fact you drive one of 500 cars thats "almost just like the racing one".
Boo and, indeed, hiss. Bring back homos, thats what I say......errr, you know what, I didn't mean that
Tell me about it. I've been getting a lot of stick for my latest purchase. "You just HAD to get the vRS didn't you?" and "You do know the diesel can do 50 to the gallon?" and "I'm perfectly happy with my (insert name of underpowered s'Consumers' apparently don't want to buy heavilly polluting cars, and as such manufacturers don't want to build cars specifically for motorsport that have no relation to what 'the consumer' wants. Hence, since the demise of homologation, motorsport in general has been pants for yeaars.
Although millions of rep-mobiles and hot hatches used to be sold on the basis of a manufacturer's motorsports success, or just their touring and rally cars looks/sound/drivers etc, its seems that times have changed and the uneducated, or rather ill-informed, public don't want to be seen driving a touring car wannabe these days. Much better to mention over a dinner party conversation that you're in love with rabbits than the fact you drive one of 500 cars thats "almost just like the racing one".
Boo and, indeed, hiss. Bring back homos, thats what I say......errr, you know what, I didn't mean that
tbox here), I don't know why anyone would need over a 1.4 really."Years ago having a reasonably quick car would be aspired to. It would be the top of the range and have all the gadgets. These days the range topper is usually a diesel with umpteen million toys, and the sporty model is pushed to one side for the "boy racers".
Ranger 6 said:
300bhp/ton said:
I don't think budget caps work. Also how do you truly enforce it? Seems like there would be far too much grey area.
Personally I think an easier way is make the cars closer to production cars. e.g.
To compete the car (and all components) must be full time production models, so no limited run of 20 cars or something silly which spiral costs. And must have produced say something more akin to 5000 units.
No, wouldn't work, with production components you'd be changing gearboxes, suspension and more after each stage of the Acropolis/1000 Lakes etc. Think back to the early days of GpN... Personally I think an easier way is make the cars closer to production cars. e.g.
To compete the car (and all components) must be full time production models, so no limited run of 20 cars or something silly which spiral costs. And must have produced say something more akin to 5000 units.
i.e. if it doesn't have torsen or electronic diffs in the production car, then it can't have them in the rally variant.
Shocks, spings and the like would be free choice, as per most other grass roots events.
What it's to try and avoid is a 7 or 8 speed sequential box which costs silly money. If the road car only actually has a 5 speed conventional manual. This would keep costs down. However the box used for competition could be a stronger item with different gear ratio's, but of the same basic type. Just like it used to be in the past.
Ranger 6 said:
300bhp/ton said:
Allow any displacement and any transmission type, so long as it is that which is in the production vehicle. Then limit how far mods can go. e.g. no sequential gearboxes if the road car uses a H gate. No turbo's if the road car is n/a
No, again just not strong enough. WRC/IRC gearboxes now are pretty much bombproof but would never work in a production car.If I want to watch F1, I'll watch F1. But when I want to watch rallying I'd quite like it to be rallying. I don't want all this stupid cost electronic race use only tech. Dial it back a bit if you know what I mean.
Ranger 6 said:
300bhp/ton said:
Some discussion and sanity limit on power/boost might be needed. But if it is all based on production components it would pretty much self limit this anyhow.
Yes, definitely power restriction of some sort - akin to the GTs an intake restrictor, but limit power to 300bhp - that's what they've got now and it's fine. You should remember that GpN cars these days are faster than GpB ever was.
I prefer not a straight power limit, but more subtle ways of doing. A simple power limit reduces variety or engines and types. I want to see V8's, Rotaries, turbo 4's all competing. The only real aim would be to stop silly power levels such as 1000hp turbo monsters.
Maybe something more along the lines of rev limits vs number of gears. If you opt for only 4 gears then have a 9000rpm rev limit, but if you want 8 gears restrict them to 5500rpms or similar.
Failing that maybe some sort of power to weight limit instead, as it would allow heavier cars to compete against smaller lighter ones, e.g. the early mid 80's with the V8 powered SD1 Rover battling the 1.9 litre Pug 205, both in Grp A.
Ranger said;
"You should remember that GpN cars these days are faster than GpB ever was"
Don't think Walter would be too far behind you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWrv1oZF3bQ&fmt... in whatever car you had.
Phil
"You should remember that GpN cars these days are faster than GpB ever was"
Don't think Walter would be too far behind you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWrv1oZF3bQ&fmt... in whatever car you had.
Phil
Great report A couple of years ago, I was lucky enough to go to the service park at the German round of the WRC and, like you say, it amazed me how much the crew get done in such a short space of time. What was even cooler was that, as it was the recce day, my friend and I headed out onto the (now reopened) rally stage in my Octavia! Being a tarmac rally made life easier, but seeing all the scars on edges of the road where they'd been cutting corners was awesome!
A couple of years ago, I was lucky enough to go to the service park at the German round of the WRC and, like you say, it amazed me how much the crew get done in such a short space of time. What was even cooler was that, as it was the recce day, my friend and I headed out onto the (now reopened) rally stage in my Octavia! Being a tarmac rally made life easier, but seeing all the scars on edges of the road where they'd been cutting corners was awesome!its nice to see everyone on here missing the point have a look at these clips its not the cars its the drivers that make the sport whether the cars are 1.6 or 2.0l the drivers will still be pushing the limits maybe even more so if there isnt so much at steak for the teams money wise.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IeV_t-OMEs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B98yOZSj2GE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IeV_t-OMEs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B98yOZSj2GE
300bhp/ton said:
...Suspect it's debatable for B and N tbh
Nope - over the same stages GpA was faster two years after GpB was banned, now GpN is capable of faster times than GpA. Oh, yes and just because the SD1 and the 205 were in GpA they were still in different classes. Remember when JC won the BTCC in an Astra because he just kept winning his class against very little competition.I won't perpetuate the debate, if you have a look at britishrally.co.uk what you're suggesting has been discussed many times and dismissed as unworkable.
Armchair enthusiasts with a little knowledge should recognise that all this talk of "what it used to be like" is b
ks. Wake up and recognise the sport is dying while you folk pontificate and dream of wet nylon jackets in Kielder. There are very few people joining motor clubs, so while we see the youngsters such as Tom Cave doing well, where's the hoards of others thrashing round SV events? Simple, they're not. So the sport needs something new, something which will appeal to those who can come in and keep the sport going.I've been working on some rallies where we've had the same stage commanders for over 15 years - that isn't going to keep people coming up through the marshal structure encouraged when they see the old guard entrenched, they're going to do something else at the weekend where we should be training and bringing them on into positions where they can learn - who's the youngest working CoC in the UK? Who's the youngest MSA steward? etc etc.
It's not just the cars the sport needs, it's the people....
I was at the IRC San Remo rally last year & stood watching the cars come through at this uphill hairpin..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-piAVzDcNh4
These cars may only have 280hp, but with tight & twisting tarmac roads, good viewing spots and an appreciative crowd, it was a great rally.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-piAVzDcNh4
These cars may only have 280hp, but with tight & twisting tarmac roads, good viewing spots and an appreciative crowd, it was a great rally.
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