RE: Spartan-V: The 300kg Bike-Engined Track Car
Discussion
RTH said:
53 years ago this was launched, ready for the road fully trimmed with heater radio and spare wheel etc it tipped the scales at 635 kgs.
with half a century of newly developed techniques and materials we ought to be able to do a lot better by now , if the will is there?
We sort of have. There are plenty of sub-500kg Caterfields around, even a reasonable number with car engines (a friend's Superlight R race car apparently weighs 490kg wet with a conventional chassis, an oversize cage and a Rover K-Series in it). That's a road registered two seater, taken to extremes there are several sub-300kg bike powered hillclimb cars I believe.with half a century of newly developed techniques and materials we ought to be able to do a lot better by now , if the will is there?
Yeloperil said:
Anyone know where I could find an SC5A?
The chap I bought my FW400 from had previously owned a Strathcarron. He didn't go into too much detail, but gave the impression that it was flawed to the point of being dangerous. IIRC, he mentioned threats of legal action on the grounds of 'not of merchantable quality or fit for purpose'.Chris71 said:
There are plenty of sub-500kg Caterfields around, even a reasonable number with car engines (a friend's Superlight R race car apparently weighs 490kg wet with a conventional chassis, an oversize cage and a Rover K-Series in it).
It's difficult to pin down an exact weight, but typical figures for the original 1957 Series 1 Lotus Seven seem to fluctuate around the 370 kilo mark. The rot had set in by the Series 2, though (about 435kg), and it's been downhill ever since...Chris71 said:
...taken to extremes there are several sub-300kg bike powered hillclimb cars I believe.
2 seat sports racers? Certainly over 300 kilos would be regarded as heavy for a single seater, but I've never seen a conventional Sports Libre hillclimber (stuff like the OMS SC1) that light?
Sorry to all the ney-sayers, but i still believe it can be done (sub 300kg).
Not with lights and not road legal, that's not what is claimed, but functional (maybe without fluids?), yes...
And not saying THIS IS sub 300kg, just that I belive it can be done...
BUT would you want to, like this? The question no one has asked so far is how does 80-100kg in the form of a driver, affect the handling in such a light car when it's in tandem configuration and without passenger?
Pillion seating would work better for such a light car, surely?
My next questions would be how often are track only cars used with passengers and how often without?
Not with lights and not road legal, that's not what is claimed, but functional (maybe without fluids?), yes...
And not saying THIS IS sub 300kg, just that I belive it can be done...
BUT would you want to, like this? The question no one has asked so far is how does 80-100kg in the form of a driver, affect the handling in such a light car when it's in tandem configuration and without passenger?
Pillion seating would work better for such a light car, surely?
My next questions would be how often are track only cars used with passengers and how often without?
virgil said:
Sorry to all the ney-sayers, but i still believe it can be done (sub 300kg).
What LocoBlade said. I'm sure it can be done, but it would need a much more careful approach to structure and component selection than appears to be the case here.virgil said:
My next questions would be how often are track only cars used with passengers and how often without?
Very fair questions. A second-hand Jedi will cost you about £6K...Sam_68 said:
Yeloperil said:
Anyone know where I could find an SC5A?
The chap I bought my FW400 from had previously owned a Strathcarron. He didn't go into too much detail, but gave the impression that it was flawed to the point of being dangerous. IIRC, he mentioned threats of legal action on the grounds of 'not of merchantable quality or fit for purpose'.bluesandtwos said:
Look at the size of it - its tiny!! 300kg it could well be.
It's small by regular passenger car standards, but not by kit car standard. For starters it's got 17" wheels which probably make it look smaller than it actually is, wheels/tyres which will weight at least 15kgs per corner so there's 20% of the claimed weight straight off the bat.Edited by LocoBlade on Wednesday 22 September 22:16
LocoBlade said:
... wheels/tyres which will weight at least 15kgs per corner so there's 20% of the claimed weight straight off the bat.
Almost certainly 'and then some...'For reference, the 13" wheels on my Westfield are about the lightest you'll come across on anything road legal: the bare 13"x 7" rears weigh less than the fabled Mike Barnby wheels used by the Caterham R500 (FW400 wheel is 3.4 kilos versus about 3.6 kilos for the Barnby's), but with a Yoko A048R 205/60 tyre fitted, they weigh 12.1 kilos each.
Judging by the beefyness of the wheels shown on the Spartan photos, not to mention the size of the tyres, I'd say that 15 kilos would be quite conservative...
And the seats: I mean, FFS, if you're chasing a 300 kilo target weight, do you fit 2-and-a-bit kilo carbon bucket seats from somebody like Reverie, or do you fit a pair of great big f
k-off armchairs with full padding from Sparco that weigh three times as much?ceebmoj said:
I have always wanted to have a good look at the Strathcarron and the LCC Rocket and for that matter.
I've had a good nose round a Rocket. It's very nice and (as you'd expect) there's not much that you can criticise by way of design and detailing, but it's also pretty conventional - there's nothing that makes you go'Wow, that's clever!'. 
There's another wannabe using the Strathcarron's bodyshell called the Javan R1, so I suspect something murky happened with the body moulds. Both Javan and Marlin are a touch evasive about the source of their moulds (though that could be just because they don't like admitting they're not an in-house design), and although they are located quite close to each other (Cornwall and Devon, respectively), they deny being connected.
Sam_68 said:
ceebmoj said:
I have always wanted to have a good look at the Strathcarron and the LCC Rocket and for that matter.
I've had a good nose round a Rocket. It's very nice and (as you'd expect) there's not much that you can criticise by way of design and detailing, but it's also pretty conventional - there's nothing that makes you go'Wow, that's clever!'. [quote]Worth remembering the Rocket is a 20 year old design
http://www.lccrocket.com/
Sam_68 said:
LocoBlade said:
... wheels/tyres which will weight at least 15kgs per corner so there's 20% of the claimed weight straight off the bat.
Almost certainly 'and then some...'For reference, the 13" wheels on my Westfield are about the lightest you'll come across on anything road legal: the bare 13"x 7" rears weigh less than the fabled Mike Barnby wheels used by the Caterham R500 (FW400 wheel is 3.4 kilos versus about 3.6 kilos for the Barnby's), but with a Yoko A048R 205/60 tyre fitted, they weigh 12.1 kilos each.
Judging by the beefyness of the wheels shown on the Spartan photos, not to mention the size of the tyres, I'd say that 15 kilos would be quite conservative...
And the seats: I mean, FFS, if you're chasing a 300 kilo target weight, do you fit 2-and-a-bit kilo carbon bucket seats from somebody like Reverie, or do you fit a pair of great big f
k-off armchairs with full padding from Sparco that weigh three times as much?Unless you have been down the road of "adding lightness" you don't know how easy it is to add a few kg here and there and undo all the previous good work you did. Agonising about seat runners, you don't need one for the passenger, but what about the driver etc
Sam_68 said:
I've had a good nose round a Rocket. It's very nice and (as you'd expect) there's not much that you can criticise by way of design and detailing, but it's also pretty conventional - there's nothing that makes you go'Wow, that's clever!'.
There's another wannabe using the Strathcarron's bodyshell called the Javan R1, so I suspect something murky happened with the body moulds. Both Javan and Marlin are a touch evasive about the source of their moulds (though that could be just because they don't like admitting they're not an in-house design), and although they are located quite close to each other (Cornwall and Devon, respectively), they deny being connected.
I had not seen the Javan R1 unfortunately there gallery section is broken at the moment. Do you know if it uses a tub or space frame? The Strathcarron used a tub witch is part of what made it interesting and stand apart from the rest. I find it interesting / baffling that with the availability low cost CNC laser / water jet cutting and folding we are not seeing many more kit and low volume cars with alloy tubs as the tub could be built up quickly for in house manufacture or sent out as a flat pack with all the holes pre cut the builder would just need to fold glue and rivet it all together. There's another wannabe using the Strathcarron's bodyshell called the Javan R1, so I suspect something murky happened with the body moulds. Both Javan and Marlin are a touch evasive about the source of their moulds (though that could be just because they don't like admitting they're not an in-house design), and although they are located quite close to each other (Cornwall and Devon, respectively), they deny being connected.
ceebmoj said:
I had not seen the Javan R1 unfortunately there gallery section is broken at the moment. Do you know if it uses a tub or space frame?
Dunno. If you click the 'Javan Sports Cars' tab on the website, it shows a row of aluminium tubs, but I wouldn't necessarily place much credence on this, since:- They look suspiciously like the old Strathcarron tubs, if my memory serves me correctly and;
- I suspect the 'factory' shows more cars in that one shot than Javan will ever build in their wettest dream,
Sam_68 said:
Dunno. If you click the 'Javan Sports Cars' tab on the website, it shows a row of aluminium tubs, but I wouldn't necessarily place much credence on this, since:
That is an interesting picture the cradle that takes the front, rear suspension and engine is interesting do you know where that are any sutch pictures of the Strathcarron can be found? the following is the best I can find of the front but i'm interested to see the rear - They look suspiciously like the old Strathcarron tubs, if my memory serves me correctly and;
- I suspect the 'factory' shows more cars in that one shot than Javan will ever build in their wettest dream,
Dont post much, but thought as an owner of an SC5A, would throw my 2p in.
Sam_68 - can only speak for my car, but the build quality is excellent, ok it aint no BMW, but for a hand built glassfibre bodied car, it very good. Some of the engineering is wonderful. Had mine nearly 8 years now, only failure has been a grumbling intermediate gearbox, reverse / lsd box, luckily had a spare so swapped over and will get the old one rebuilt. Have done a handful of track days with her, not one problem. Okay, Im no stig but its extremely chuckable and quite rapid.
Only wear points so far have been the where the front and rear clam shell clasps hook onto the main body, but nothing a little touching up wont sort. General finish is very good.
Main problem is that you can never show a passenger how rapid it is, once you get a second person in the car the power to weight plummets, so it feels more like a hot hatch.
Put mine on the scales late last year, cant remember the exact figure but it was roughly 590Kg
Ceebmoj - this any good, can dig out a few more if youd like anything specific
Sam_68 - can only speak for my car, but the build quality is excellent, ok it aint no BMW, but for a hand built glassfibre bodied car, it very good. Some of the engineering is wonderful. Had mine nearly 8 years now, only failure has been a grumbling intermediate gearbox, reverse / lsd box, luckily had a spare so swapped over and will get the old one rebuilt. Have done a handful of track days with her, not one problem. Okay, Im no stig but its extremely chuckable and quite rapid.
Only wear points so far have been the where the front and rear clam shell clasps hook onto the main body, but nothing a little touching up wont sort. General finish is very good.
Main problem is that you can never show a passenger how rapid it is, once you get a second person in the car the power to weight plummets, so it feels more like a hot hatch.
Put mine on the scales late last year, cant remember the exact figure but it was roughly 590Kg
Ceebmoj - this any good, can dig out a few more if youd like anything specific
JP said:
|http://thumbsnap.com/pwbSaOnJ[/url]The reason I am looking for pictures of the strecathlon and Javan R1 was to compare the rear end witch can be seen in the picture javan R1 picture . I'm interested in the use of laser cut parts in the production of low volume cars (Yes I am that geeky) as to me it seams like a methog that has a lot of merit that seam very under used. both the front and rear end of the Javan look to use a lot of that type of part and might even be self jigging.
Edited by ceebmoj on Wednesday 13th October 10:00
Will dig some more out and post them on here, think theres also a couple of the spare honeycomb tub i have
The strathcarron tub doesnt have the front triangluar sides or base, this is either open or thin aluminium plate on the sc5a
Otherwise they look similar
Jp
The strathcarron tub doesnt have the front triangluar sides or base, this is either open or thin aluminium plate on the sc5a
Otherwise they look similar
Jp
Edited by JP on Wednesday 13th October 18:51
JP said:
Sam_68 - can only speak for my car, but the build quality is excellent
Fair enough - I should stress that I've never even seen a Strathcarron up close; I was merely relaying the comments of a guy who had owned one previous to owning the FW I bought from him.As a bit of a beam axle fetishist, I'd be interested in pics or details of how the de Dion is located, if you have any?
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