RE: Spyker: Yes, We Do Want BMW Engines For Saab
Discussion
The problem as I see it is that legislation is forcing almost every other car maker into building FWD turbocharged cars. Saab used to be 'THE' FWD Turbo guys, that's what marked them out (yes, and owners with over-developed forearms as a result 
) and it was almost their preserve, like a rear-mounted engine in a 911.
With everyone else now taking that route, Saab have lost their unique identity and are going to have to redefine themselves in order to stand-out compared with the rest of the (mostly dull) executive cars in the classes the company wants to compete in. The crux is that innovation is needed, and my fear is that Spyker may not have the resources to allow it. - Parts bin specials have been done to death over the last 15 or so years. That was the cause of Saab's problems; not the solution.
It really makes me wonder how VW can get away with building multiples of the same car, just wearing different clothes (A3, TT, Golf, Leon, Octavia, Scirocco etc. etc.) - They seem to have succeeded where the likes of GM failed - It must be the imagine.
) and it was almost their preserve, like a rear-mounted engine in a 911.With everyone else now taking that route, Saab have lost their unique identity and are going to have to redefine themselves in order to stand-out compared with the rest of the (mostly dull) executive cars in the classes the company wants to compete in. The crux is that innovation is needed, and my fear is that Spyker may not have the resources to allow it. - Parts bin specials have been done to death over the last 15 or so years. That was the cause of Saab's problems; not the solution.
It really makes me wonder how VW can get away with building multiples of the same car, just wearing different clothes (A3, TT, Golf, Leon, Octavia, Scirocco etc. etc.) - They seem to have succeeded where the likes of GM failed - It must be the imagine.
900T-R said:
I wouldn't bank on a V6 from BMW... 
The 9-5 could do with some more competitive (in terms of refinement and fuel efficiency/emissions mostly) diesels, the BMW 4 cylinder (now also engineered for transverse FWD application as in the Mini) would do nicely in 2.0 litre guise for starters. 
I thought the MINI used a Peugeot/Citroen unit or is that just the case in the Cooper S The 9-5 could do with some more competitive (in terms of refinement and fuel efficiency/emissions mostly) diesels, the BMW 4 cylinder (now also engineered for transverse FWD application as in the Mini) would do nicely in 2.0 litre guise for starters. Seems like a perfect match. As others have said Saab built their image with 4 pot turbos driving the front wheels, and BMW's turbos are absolutely excellent. Emissions laws now make engine development very expensive so why go to the trouble and expense if you can buy off the shelf?
As for the idea of putting a BMW straight six in a FWD car just forget it. Not practical. Not needed. Although, I think, Cord put a straight 8 in a FWD car but that's another story.
As for the idea of putting a BMW straight six in a FWD car just forget it. Not practical. Not needed. Although, I think, Cord put a straight 8 in a FWD car but that's another story.
Edited by jake15919 on Tuesday 28th September 10:49
ArtVandelay said:
I thought the MINI used a Peugeot/Citroen unit or is that just the case in the Cooper S
You're correct. My father has 2 Mini Cooper Diesels (used for driving instruction) and the engines are the same as in my C4 (I wish I had their gearbox though!). The BMW 2.0-litres are completely different engines.ArtVandelay said:
I thought the MINI used a Peugeot/Citroen unit or is that just the case in the Cooper S
Diesels were PSA units, since a couple of months replaced with a lower-capacity (1.6l rather than 2.0l), transverse development of the BMW four pot (as in x16d, x18d x20d, x23d etc)...Denorth said:
for some reason I recalled Rover 75 and the story about that car being FrontWD and powered by BMW. It's not with us anymore. Not that I miss it (although many said it was a decent designed and built car), but I wouldn't want to see this happen to SAAB 
Don't worry I'm sure that won't happen. Its diffcult to pay for engines or chassis tech when in August you register 92 cars in the UK... When your chief 'competitor' registers over 3000.... And you've just released your new 'make or break' car.Edited by Denorth on Tuesday 28th September 10:13
If you do the math that works out at about one 9-5 demo for each dealer with a couple of spares for the bigger ones. Sounds like the basis for a sales success story. I know of dealers who haven't sold one yet to a retail customer and who's DPs won't let the salesmen use the car as a demo as they are scared to death of the deprecation curves. So where's the money going to come from?
You can't keep going to the EU for loans when you are basing them on predicted sales and profit forecasts that just aren't happening. Someone eventually is going to say ".....but you aren't selling any cars" Just last month Bloomburg were saying that they expected Spyker/Saab to run out of money at the end of the year. If BMW do supply them with engines after looking at the books and the sales figures then they must be looking at some form designed loss for tax reasons.
They should have gone with dignity. This whole Spyker experiment is just destroying the name of a once great brand.
the other big swedes have been using laterally mounted 6's for a while (s80, xc90), so that is an option if the ancillaries are fairly compact (although the volvos in quesiton have awful turning circles)
The other option is longditudally mounted fwd cars. Saab were famous for this before the platform sharing began - now if we assume the sharing is over - is there any reason why they wouldn't go back? Would give the cars a nicer (long bonnet) profile..
The other option is longditudally mounted fwd cars. Saab were famous for this before the platform sharing began - now if we assume the sharing is over - is there any reason why they wouldn't go back? Would give the cars a nicer (long bonnet) profile..
The Hypno-Toad said:
Don't worry I'm sure that won't happen. Its diffcult to pay for engines or chassis tech when in August you register 92 cars in the UK...
Don't be negative that's a 162% higher than the 35 sold in the same month last year. I love to see taxpayers money used so effectively.
5lab said:
The other option is longditudally mounted fwd cars. Saab were famous for this before the platform sharing began - now if we assume the sharing is over - is there any reason why they wouldn't go back? Would give the cars a nicer (long bonnet) profile..
A more practicable option would be to reverse the drivetrain 180 degrees as per the Saab 9-X and Buick Whatchamamcallit concepts of the early 2000s, creating a transverse front mid engined FWD set up. Both concepts were based on the then-new Epsilon architecture of which Saab's Phoenix platform is a development, so it can be done. Also, Toyota's iQ uses this layout.Fittster said:
The Hypno-Toad said:
Don't worry I'm sure that won't happen. Its diffcult to pay for engines or chassis tech when in August you register 92 cars in the UK...
Don't be negative that's a 162% higher than the 35 sold in the same month last year. I love to see taxpayers money used so effectively.
I keep saying it but to me its fairly obvious. The Saab business model needed the New 9-5 to be an enormous sales success. It hasn't been. They're doomed.
Clivey said:
The problem as I see it is that legislation is forcing almost every other car maker into building FWD turbocharged cars. Saab used to be 'THE' FWD Turbo guys, that's what marked them out (yes, and owners with over-developed forearms as a result ) and it was almost their preserve, like a rear-mounted engine in a 911.
With everyone else now taking that route, Saab have lost their unique identity and are going to have to redefine themselves in order to stand-out compared with the rest of the (mostly dull) executive cars in the classes the company wants to compete in. The crux is that innovation is needed, and my fear is that Spyker may not have the resources to allow it. - Parts bin specials have been done to death over the last 15 or so years. That was the cause of Saab's problems; not the solution.
It really makes me wonder how VW can get away with building multiples of the same car, just wearing different clothes (A3, TT, Golf, Leon, Octavia, Scirocco etc. etc.) - They seem to have succeeded where the likes of GM failed - It must be the imagine.
+1) and it was almost their preserve, like a rear-mounted engine in a 911.With everyone else now taking that route, Saab have lost their unique identity and are going to have to redefine themselves in order to stand-out compared with the rest of the (mostly dull) executive cars in the classes the company wants to compete in. The crux is that innovation is needed, and my fear is that Spyker may not have the resources to allow it. - Parts bin specials have been done to death over the last 15 or so years. That was the cause of Saab's problems; not the solution.
It really makes me wonder how VW can get away with building multiples of the same car, just wearing different clothes (A3, TT, Golf, Leon, Octavia, Scirocco etc. etc.) - They seem to have succeeded where the likes of GM failed - It must be the imagine.
Fetchez la vache said:
As much as I see this as a good idea, are the existing engines actually the reason people are not buying Saabs at the moment?
IMHO the 9-5 suffers from inadequate refinement and not-too-competitive CO2 ratings on the diesels, and plain high fuel consumption/emissions ratings on the petrol engines, versus similarly powerful competitors. That's not good for a brand that prides itself on 'responsible performance'. BMW OTOH has been leading the way for performance vs. fuel economy/emissions (at least on paper
) for a good while now.900T-R said:
5lab said:
The other option is longditudally mounted fwd cars. Saab were famous for this before the platform sharing began - now if we assume the sharing is over - is there any reason why they wouldn't go back? Would give the cars a nicer (long bonnet) profile..
A more practicable option would be to reverse the drivetrain 180 degrees as per the Saab 9-X and Buick Whatchamamcallit concepts of the early 2000s, creating a transverse front mid engined FWD set up. Both concepts were based on the then-new Epsilon architecture of which Saab's Phoenix platform is a development, so it can be done. Also, Toyota's iQ uses this layout.An inline config with the engine behind you either lengthen the nose or encroach on cabin space.
Personally, I don't like Saabs, I don't see any reason to like Saabs, and yet a Saab with a BMW engine in it manages to be even less desirable in my eyes. If I want a BMW engine I'll buy a BMW. Endless flaming parts sharing. This is just hateful for the consumer.
Edited by MattjK on Tuesday 28th September 13:48
annodomini2 said:
900T-R said:
5lab said:
The other option is longditudally mounted fwd cars. Saab were famous for this before the platform sharing began - now if we assume the sharing is over - is there any reason why they wouldn't go back? Would give the cars a nicer (long bonnet) profile..
A more practicable option would be to reverse the drivetrain 180 degrees as per the Saab 9-X and Buick Whatchamamcallit concepts of the early 2000s, creating a transverse front mid engined FWD set up. Both concepts were based on the then-new Epsilon architecture of which Saab's Phoenix platform is a development, so it can be done. Also, Toyota's iQ uses this layout.An inline config with the engine behind you either lengthen the nose or encroach on cabin space.
An unfortunate amount of fanboi-ism in this thread.
Who cares if it's FWD or RWD? 90% of the time it doesn't matter a jot, and the kind of people that might, on occasion, push it far enough to warrant the use of RWD, aren't going to buy a new Saab anyway.
If it helps Saab with company car tax, then it will boost the brand massively. All those guys in offices that want a cheap to tax, mid-level car, but don't want to be exactly the same as the knobbers in their BMWs or Audis, then an alternative will be presented to them by the way of Saab.
Saab amongst regular people, has a reputation for being safe, good quality and a bit middle class. They're just not economical or powerful enough, so nobody will want them as company cars.
If they have a low-tax BMW engine onboard and some good quality interior materials, then we'll see a lot more of them appearing in the outside lanes of our motorways before long.
Who cares if it's FWD or RWD? 90% of the time it doesn't matter a jot, and the kind of people that might, on occasion, push it far enough to warrant the use of RWD, aren't going to buy a new Saab anyway.
If it helps Saab with company car tax, then it will boost the brand massively. All those guys in offices that want a cheap to tax, mid-level car, but don't want to be exactly the same as the knobbers in their BMWs or Audis, then an alternative will be presented to them by the way of Saab.
Saab amongst regular people, has a reputation for being safe, good quality and a bit middle class. They're just not economical or powerful enough, so nobody will want them as company cars.
If they have a low-tax BMW engine onboard and some good quality interior materials, then we'll see a lot more of them appearing in the outside lanes of our motorways before long.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff