RE: The New Era Of Lotus - Revealed

[bosscerbera]

The Pits said:

so you should be in favour of Loti with greater emphasis on power, surely?

Yeah - a 300+bhp Elise. MY2011, ready to order NOW.

I bought an Elise at the start of 2008 and found it only really came into its own on clear roads with sufficient visibility to maintain momentum and commitment. (How often does that happen??) It's too easy to lose momentum, either for the sake of safety or the presence of other road users. Overtaking, in particular, could be quite nerve racking. Passes you wouldn't think twice about in [almost anything these days], you'd have to consider in the Elise.

An argument that the Elise would therefore be astounding on a track where you could be sure of what's around the bend didn't wash either - at the end of the day, it had got about 130bhp. Granted, mine was a 1ZZ-powered Elise S and the 2ZZ-powered cars have 180-190bhp, but the 2ZZs - unless you're past the cam change - drive exactly the same as the 1ZZ cars. 2ZZs are a bit better on track, and you can overtake more easily with them, but you need to be in the mood to rev the nuts off it. I can't help feeling that those that champion them simply haven't had enough experience of other cars.

I cured my feeble 'S' with a turbo. At 260+bhp it made a lot more sense - it had torque everywhere and was genuinely fast. The result, memorably, kept an LP640 honest to 100mph on a circuit and then blitzed it through bends. It was great in real world driving too. The Honda/Audi-powered hotrods achieve the same end. So, a 300+bhp Elise 'as advertised' at Paris would be fab ....and then they announce it's pretty much the last new model on their minds. FFS, if ever there was a justification for tolerating the clambering in/out routine and the noisiness, it's being able to claim supercar-slaying performance. If ever there was a showcase for Lotus's values it's a quick Elise.

As for 500-600bhp V8 middies/coupés/barges, yeah, lovely. What's not to like? Me and me mate could make one and offer it for sale for a hundred large. Lotus's 'plan' is barely more credible.

[LuS1fer]

bosscerbera said:

LuS1fer said:

skwdenyer said:

Isn't this all rather irrelevant? A well-driven current 1.6 Elise will comprehensively trounce any other vehicle on a winding country road in the real world.

This is largely a myth. In practice, on PH runs where the driving is spirited, an Elise can reach it's limits like every other car and tends to bounce round more due to it's light weight. I've spoken to Elise drivers after such runs recounting drama that didn't exist in the Mustang. You may also recall that Top Gear where they pitted a supercharged Exige against a Mustang on a track (granted JC against The Stig)and despite its shaved tyres, the result was victory but hardly the margin you might expect. I'm not trying to make any great point here save in the real world, not everyone is a 10/10ths driver.

Agreed. The naturally aspirated Elises lack the power for modern stop-start driving behaviour and, in particular, they lack power for overtaking. In the real world, they're slow.

My own view is that all this lightness crap belongs in the 60s. Modern life requires some comfort. Volume sales are not in the Caterham sector, they are in the MX5 sector. However pure and theoretical your ethos, getting into a thinly upholsterded tin can/plastic cup on a cold morning is unpleasant. Modern cars are heavy, they pretty much all are and low weight now is very different to what it used to be becaiuse of safety legislation. Weight has never been a bar to sales.

All I want to see is Lotus making a solid, quality product that people want and will buy. If anyone wants to step into the low volume Elise shoes left behind then I'm sure no-one will object or necessarily compete.

[otolith]

LuS1fer said:

My own view is that all this lightness crap belongs in the 60s. Modern life requires some comfort. Volume sales are not in the Caterham sector, they are in the MX5 sector. However pure and theoretical your ethos, getting into a thinly upholsterded tin can/plastic cup on a cold morning is unpleasant. Modern cars are heavy, they pretty much all are and low weight now is very different to what it used to be becaiuse of safety legislation. Weight has never been a bar to sales.

Why would you celebrate a reduction of choice? Will you be over the moon when the last V8 muscle car is replaced with a four cylinder front wheel drive hybrid because "that's what everyone else wants"? Not everyone wants all of their cars to be bloated boulevard cruisers.

Does the world really need another Audi TT / Boxster / Z4 / SLK / 370Z competitor at the expense of the only car in the Elise's class? Seems a crying shame to me.

[nsmith1180]

I can see both sides of the lightweight argument here but I think that Lotus need applauding.

Old Elise:

59% of the weight of a 1995 Vauxhall Vectra LS 1.6.

New Elise:

72.8% of the weight of a 2008 Insignia 1.8 Exclusiv.

Its not as light, but with the added features and the fact that its got a 10% increase in engine capacity and 2.6 times the power i think its a respectable. The original Elise had 0.15 PS per KG, the new one has 0.312 PS per KG.

[LuS1fer]

otolith said:

LuS1fer said:

My own view is that all this lightness crap belongs in the 60s. Modern life requires some comfort. Volume sales are not in the Caterham sector, they are in the MX5 sector. However pure and theoretical your ethos, getting into a thinly upholsterded tin can/plastic cup on a cold morning is unpleasant. Modern cars are heavy, they pretty much all are and low weight now is very different to what it used to be becaiuse of safety legislation. Weight has never been a bar to sales.

Why would you celebrate a reduction of choice? Will you be over the moon when the last V8 muscle car is replaced with a four cylinder front wheel drive hybrid because "that's what everyone else wants"? Not everyone wants all of their cars to be bloated boulevard cruisers.

Does the world really need another Audi TT / Boxster / Z4 / SLK / 370Z competitor at the expense of the only car in the Elise's class? Seems a crying shame to me.

It is a shame but the dearth of anyone making such cars at a loss for charitable purposes tells you all you need to know about choice. If they were priced to make a decent profit, no-one would buy them.
They make V8 muscle cars because they sell by the bucketload. When they cease to do so, I won't expect Ford and GM to keep making them and sell them at a loss just to please me unless it makes financial sense to the overall picture - as a halo model so to speak.

[RTH]

LuS1fer said:

otolith said:

LuS1fer said:

My own view is that all this lightness crap belongs in the 60s. Modern life requires some comfort. Volume sales are not in the Caterham sector, they are in the MX5 sector. However pure and theoretical your ethos, getting into a thinly upholsterded tin can/plastic cup on a cold morning is unpleasant. Modern cars are heavy, they pretty much all are and low weight now is very different to what it used to be becaiuse of safety legislation. Weight has never been a bar to sales.

Why would you celebrate a reduction of choice? Will you be over the moon when the last V8 muscle car is replaced with a four cylinder front wheel drive hybrid because "that's what everyone else wants"? Not everyone wants all of their cars to be bloated boulevard cruisers.

Does the world really need another Audi TT / Boxster / Z4 / SLK / 370Z competitor at the expense of the only car in the Elise's class? Seems a crying shame to me.

It is a shame but the dearth of anyone making such cars at a loss for charitable purposes tells you all you need to know about choice. If they were priced to make a decent profit, no-one would buy them.
They make V8 muscle cars because they sell by the bucketload. When they cease to do so, I won't expect Ford and GM to keep making them and sell them at a loss just to please me unless it makes financial sense to the overall picture - as a halo model so to speak.

If by V8 muscle cars you mean what we normally think of US large capacity front engine rear drive, they sell in numbers in the states because cars like this

http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/F...

The Mustang starts in USA at £16000 that would be regarded as a very cheap volume car in Britain today.

[otolith]

That wasn't really the point - the point was that it's a more interesting automotive world when not everyone panders to the lowest common denominator, and we should be sad to see a class of car go extinct.

[ewenm]

otolith said:

That wasn't really the point - the point was that it's a more interesting automotive world when not everyone panders to the lowest common denominator, and we should be sad to see a class of car go extinct.

Yes, but would you pay twice as much for the current Elise (for example, numbers may vary) so that it can be made and make a profit?

Hopefully Ginetta can bring the G40 to the road market...

[otolith]

ewenm said:

otolith said:

That wasn't really the point - the point was that it's a more interesting automotive world when not everyone panders to the lowest common denominator, and we should be sad to see a class of car go extinct.

Yes, but would you pay twice as much for the current Elise (for example, numbers may vary) so that it can be made and make a profit?

No - but if as the press release indicates the new Elise can be made in similar volumes to the old Elise and sold profitably for 35k, why should I need to?

ewenm said:

Hopefully Ginetta can bring the G40 to the road market...

That would do.

[LuS1fer]

RTH said:

The Mustang starts in USA at £16000 that would be regarded as a very cheap volume car in Britain today.

Yes and no. Market value relates to what the earnings of the average American are and it's a lot less than the UK IIRC. That aside, they really pare profits to the bone to keep the cars competitive, offer rebates on the prices and importantly offer killer finance rates. Their insurance system is also far less draconian than ours.

You also have to remember that the US has less tax on cars and fuel. In the UK it would have 10% import duty and then VAT on top as well. Fuelling the car would be a major expense here but not in the US (though they drive longer distances arguably).

[Europa1]

Can we not just say good luck to them? Fantastic company, great heritage, and a major employer in what is actually a relatively poor part of the country, now trying to look forward and capture new markets and finally secure its future. Look how long it took Aston to turn a profit.

If you've not seen it, the video which precedes Dany Bahar's presnetation at Paris is genius: http://live.lotuscars.com/videoplayer/

Bear with it - you don't have to sit through the full 5 minute countdown that the screen starts with!

[nsmith1180]

Europa1 said:

Can we not just say good luck to them? Fantastic company, great heritage, and a major employer in what is actually a relatively poor part of the country, now trying to look forward and capture new markets and finally secure its future. Look how long it took Aston to turn a profit.

If you've not seen it, the video which precedes Dany Bahar's presnetation at Paris is genius: http://live.lotuscars.com/videoplayer/

Bear with it - you don't have to sit through the full 5 minute countdown that the screen starts with!

It was awesome, all that history distilled into a couple of breathtaking minutes.

[fatbutt]

Good to read that we're not the only ones a bit baffled by it all:

http://www.classicdriver.com/uk/magazine/3200.asp?...

[bosscerbera]

fatbutt said:

Good to read that we're not the only ones a bit baffled by it all:

http://www.classicdriver.com/uk/magazine/3200.asp?...

Not that many of 'us' on here seem to be!

[simonrockman]

We are all assuming they will be brilliant to drive "because Lotuses always are". I that a fair assumption? They've changed everything else except the badge.

[kambites]

simonrockman said:

We are all assuming they will be brilliant to drive "because Lotuses always are". I that a fair assumption? They've changed everything else except the badge.

Have they? I assume they still have largely the same design team (albeit padded out with a load of people from other companies)?

[GKP]

kambites said:

simonrockman said:

We are all assuming they will be brilliant to drive "because Lotuses always are". I that a fair assumption? They've changed everything else except the badge.

Have they? I assume they still have largely the same design team (albeit padded out with a load of people from other companies)?

The new cars will be based on the current VVA (Evora) platform and essentially it's just the outer skin and powertrain that are being restyled. This is the real beauty of the VVA and I see no reason why the new generation of cars won't ride and steer as well as the current cars.

[GTRene]

jummie...with the R option 450bhp

[racingmegashed]

A stunning line up - can they really pull this off - all from
Hethel? I really hope they can!! Saving my pennies right now.

[juansolo]

I'd like to think that I'm man enough to admit when I'm wrong, and I think I may have been a bit hasty with my opinion of the new direction Lotus are taking. What's changed? I hd a play with an Evora and was deeply impressed with it.

Considering it's 1300+ kgs, you wouldn't know it. though not perfect, as a vision of things to come I think they could actually pull this off.

I certainly hope they do and I can't wait to see what they do next.

Edited by juansolo on Friday 22 October 15:32