Too many former keepers?
Discussion
Guys and gals - I am going to look at a nice e36 M3. It’s a 1998 MY therefore around 12 years old. Its HPI clear etc and in great condition but it currently has had 5 former keepers and the current owner - therefore I would be number 7
I realise that condition is the most important factor, but I am worried that I would struggle to sell it on when I get bored.
What do you guys think; is the number of former keepers really important to you? - be honest please.
I realise that condition is the most important factor, but I am worried that I would struggle to sell it on when I get bored.
What do you guys think; is the number of former keepers really important to you? - be honest please.
Edited by Pig Skill on Friday 1st October 12:28
Depends on the type of car, some are fashionable and change hands quickly initially, some have expensive bills so are sold before a major service or quite often sports cars change hands a lot if they are fun in summer but impractical for year round use.
A car could be an ex demonstrator sold on after the registration plate changed and have three owners on the log book in a year quite easily but it wouldn't bother me if the last couple of owners had had it for more than a year or so. Looks like a lemon with issues if there have been a few owners within a year when it is getting old.
A car could be an ex demonstrator sold on after the registration plate changed and have three owners on the log book in a year quite easily but it wouldn't bother me if the last couple of owners had had it for more than a year or so. Looks like a lemon with issues if there have been a few owners within a year when it is getting old.
Pig Skill said:
Guys and gals - I am going to look at a nice e36 M3. It’s a 1998 MY therefore around 12 years old. Its HPI clear etc and in great condition but it currently has had 5 former keepers and the current owner - therefore I would be number 7
I realise that condition is the mo0st important but I am worried I would struggle to sell it on when get bored.
What do you guys think - is the number of former keepers really important to you - be honest please.
I think some people worry about unimportant things.... this being one of them. But true to form, if you worry about it, then you can guarantee someone else will too.I realise that condition is the mo0st important but I am worried I would struggle to sell it on when get bored.
What do you guys think - is the number of former keepers really important to you - be honest please.
I think on a car this old you will be lucky to find one with a low number of owners and the more interesting the car the more likely it is to have changed hands a few times.
Once it gets more than 9 it might put a lot of people off.
I recently saw an RS turbo advertised that had racked up 19 previous owners!! - now that's probably going a bit too far (and yes it was a pile of junk).
Once it gets more than 9 it might put a lot of people off.
I recently saw an RS turbo advertised that had racked up 19 previous owners!! - now that's probably going a bit too far (and yes it was a pile of junk).
A large-ish number of owners on a sports car is not massively unusual, but I'm not sure an M3 falls into this category. For me, it'd be on the cusp of OK...
The thing that will count as a buyer when you came to sell it is how long you'd had it, and how long the previous owner has had it. If you'd both kept it for a year or so, I'd assume there was something that neither of you wanted to fix when it came to the service, and look for something else.
If you're planning on keeping it for 2-3 years, it's a safer bet (as a punter) that it's been looked after by the previous owner, and that issues would have been sorted out.
That all said, how much is it and what would it be worth anyway when you come to sell? If it's reasonably cheap anyway, it may be at the point where people just don't care.
The thing that will count as a buyer when you came to sell it is how long you'd had it, and how long the previous owner has had it. If you'd both kept it for a year or so, I'd assume there was something that neither of you wanted to fix when it came to the service, and look for something else.
If you're planning on keeping it for 2-3 years, it's a safer bet (as a punter) that it's been looked after by the previous owner, and that issues would have been sorted out.
That all said, how much is it and what would it be worth anyway when you come to sell? If it's reasonably cheap anyway, it may be at the point where people just don't care.
DanL said:
A large-ish number of owners on a sports car is not massively unusual, but I'm not sure an M3 falls into this category. For me, it'd be on the cusp of OK...
Why??What does having more owners truly tell you?? Sure you can make some assumptions, but without further info and evidence any assumptions will be false assumptions.
I mean, how many threads are there on here were people say they get bored of their cars in 3-9 months and are always changing them.
Thankfully cars are not quite like women in this respect. ie. they don't all get more mental and saggy the more keepers it has.
I bought a car with 5 previous when it was only 10 years old - I loved it and kept hold of it for another 10 years. Infact I loved it so much I couldnt quite understand why so many people only kept it for 2 years or less! But it was a 'niche' car, and as said above, I think they are either fashionable (lots of owners in a short time) or loved (1 owner for ages).
I bought a car with 5 previous when it was only 10 years old - I loved it and kept hold of it for another 10 years. Infact I loved it so much I couldnt quite understand why so many people only kept it for 2 years or less! But it was a 'niche' car, and as said above, I think they are either fashionable (lots of owners in a short time) or loved (1 owner for ages).
Each extra owner increases the chance that you have one who abused it, so clearly increases the chance that at some point in it's life it has not been looked after. As the number rises higher, it heads closer and closer to certainty that it's been thrashed and neglected.
It's exactly the same as the argument I had with the agency that sends me cleaning staff, when they went through a phase of sending a new one every week. I pointed out that there do exist dishonest ones, and if enough people come through the house, one of them will be the sort to clean me out.
Or, if you prefer it another way, sleep with enough random people, and eventually one of them will give you a dose of something unpleasant.
That being said, older cars tend to have lots of owners. Yes, you'd prefer fewer, all other things being equal, but you are going to be cutting down your options if you hold out for a three owner car that's over ten years old.
It's exactly the same as the argument I had with the agency that sends me cleaning staff, when they went through a phase of sending a new one every week. I pointed out that there do exist dishonest ones, and if enough people come through the house, one of them will be the sort to clean me out.
Or, if you prefer it another way, sleep with enough random people, and eventually one of them will give you a dose of something unpleasant.
That being said, older cars tend to have lots of owners. Yes, you'd prefer fewer, all other things being equal, but you are going to be cutting down your options if you hold out for a three owner car that's over ten years old.
NorthernBoy said:
Each extra owner increases the chance that you have one who abused it, so clearly increases the chance that at some point in it's life it has not been looked after. As the number rises higher, it heads closer and closer to certainty that it's been thrashed and neglected.
This ladies and gentlemen is a classic example of false certainty.While your view may not be wrong, it misses a large chunk of the picture. Namely...
-Lots of owners means, should one owner be the type to abuse it, then it would only have been done so for a short period of time before being sold on. Probably not more than a single service interval or so if we use this M3 example. So some could claim this equally as a way of reducing such a risk.
-To further this, logically the opposite of your statement is also true, e.g.
"Each extra owner increases the chance that you have one who hasn't abused it, so clearly increases the chance that at some point in it's life it has
Statistics and you are, it seems, not comfortable bedfellows.
It is unarguable that every extra owner increases the chance that one of them is the sort that you'd prefer were not in the car's history. It is also unarguable that increasing their number in no way decreases the average time that you could expect it to have been in the hands of a bad owner.
Seriously, you have a reputation for spouting idiocy, but can you not fit the odd intelligent post in amongst it once in a while?
It is unarguable that every extra owner increases the chance that one of them is the sort that you'd prefer were not in the car's history. It is also unarguable that increasing their number in no way decreases the average time that you could expect it to have been in the hands of a bad owner.
Seriously, you have a reputation for spouting idiocy, but can you not fit the odd intelligent post in amongst it once in a while?
I looked at a 2001 Boxster S a few weeks ago. Advertised for £8995, it was in generally very nice condition but had had 6 previous owners on the V5. When I looked at the history, I realised the seller (who had had it since April this year) hadn't had it serviced; nor had he checked the oil, even (I had to show him where the dipstick was!). The previous owner had it for about a year and didn't service it either. It was last properly looked after by a garage about two and a half years before - nearly a third of its life ago.
Needless to say, I didn't buy it because who knows what may have been lurking. I did speak to the chap a few days later and he sold for £8k; plenty of people seem to be willing to take a punt, and he's avoided a potentially enormous servicing bill, but there are loads of cars out there - walk away and buy another one, like I did.
[ETA: not a Boxster - that's the joy of walking away, you widen your search
]
Needless to say, I didn't buy it because who knows what may have been lurking. I did speak to the chap a few days later and he sold for £8k; plenty of people seem to be willing to take a punt, and he's avoided a potentially enormous servicing bill, but there are loads of cars out there - walk away and buy another one, like I did.
[ETA: not a Boxster - that's the joy of walking away, you widen your search
]Edited by SJobson on Friday 1st October 13:38
NorthernBoy said:
Statistics and you are, it seems, not comfortable bedfellows.
It is unarguable that every extra owner increases the chance that one of them is the sort that you'd prefer were not in the car's history.
You see this is why it's false certainty. You are making the assumption that the majority of owners will be good, so more owners then runs the risk of a bad one.It is unarguable that every extra owner increases the chance that one of them is the sort that you'd prefer were not in the car's history.
But that's a huge assumption to make. You could also assume that most owners are bad. This would statistically mean each new owner would increase your chance of a good owner.
NorthernBoy said:
It is also unarguable that increasing their number in no way decreases the average time that you could expect it to have been in the hands of a bad owner.
and Yes it does.
Car 'x' is 10 years old. 3 owners.
MEAN average of ownership duration 3.333 years per owner
Car 'y' is 10 years old. 9 owners.
MEAN average of ownership duration 1.111 years
If both cars had had 1 bad owner, then car 'x' would have been exposed to the owner for 3 times as long.
NorthernBoy said:
Statistics and you are, it seems, not comfortable bedfellows.
It is unarguable that every extra owner increases the chance that one of them is the sort that you'd prefer were not in the car's history. It is also unarguable that increasing their number in no way decreases the average time that you could expect it to have been in the hands of a bad owner.
Seriously, you have a reputation for spouting idiocy, but can you not fit the odd intelligent post in amongst it once in a while?
BUT - with specialist cars, there's also a good chance that each time it's changed hands the new owner has "refreshed it" or done jobs that needed doing. This is even more likely to be the case if the car is sold through a dealer each time.It is unarguable that every extra owner increases the chance that one of them is the sort that you'd prefer were not in the car's history. It is also unarguable that increasing their number in no way decreases the average time that you could expect it to have been in the hands of a bad owner.
Seriously, you have a reputation for spouting idiocy, but can you not fit the odd intelligent post in amongst it once in a while?
On performance kit I'm not too worried about owners. Usually a car will be MoT'd/serviced in order to get an easy sale for a decent price.
Its unimportant to me but is one of those things the average low life dealer uses against you.
I had a moron in Leatherhead tell me he was doing me a favour on a really nice 325CI by 'taking it off my hands'. It was an 02 reg and I was the 5th owner. It was immaculate.
Idiots like him can cause it to be a problem, normally common sense would prevail to your average buyer and with a car over 10 years the number of ownder becomes less important in my opinion.
I had a moron in Leatherhead tell me he was doing me a favour on a really nice 325CI by 'taking it off my hands'. It was an 02 reg and I was the 5th owner. It was immaculate.
Idiots like him can cause it to be a problem, normally common sense would prevail to your average buyer and with a car over 10 years the number of ownder becomes less important in my opinion.
Edited by shipley on Friday 1st October 14:10
300bhp/ton said:
NorthernBoy said:
Statistics and you are, it seems, not comfortable bedfellows.
It is unarguable that every extra owner increases the chance that one of them is the sort that you'd prefer were not in the car's history.
You see this is why it's false certainty. You are making the assumption that the majority of owners will be good, so more owners then runs the risk of a bad one.It is unarguable that every extra owner increases the chance that one of them is the sort that you'd prefer were not in the car's history.
But that's a huge assumption to make. You could also assume that most owners are bad. This would statistically mean each new owner would increase your chance of a good owner.
NorthernBoy said:
It is also unarguable that increasing their number in no way decreases the average time that you could expect it to have been in the hands of a bad owner.
and Yes it does.
Car 'x' is 10 years old. 3 owners.
MEAN average of ownership duration 3.333 years per owner
Car 'y' is 10 years old. 9 owners.
MEAN average of ownership duration 1.111 years
If both cars had had 1 bad owner, then car 'x' would have been exposed to the owner for 3 times as long.
I imagine the compound effect of 3 different bad owners would be worse than 1 bad owner over a slightly longer period, but that is pure speculation.
Edited by Kozzy on Friday 1st October 14:36
Kozzy said:
300bhp/ton said:
NorthernBoy said:
Statistics and you are, it seems, not comfortable bedfellows.
It is unarguable that every extra owner increases the chance that one of them is the sort that you'd prefer were not in the car's history.
You see this is why it's false certainty. You are making the assumption that the majority of owners will be good, so more owners then runs the risk of a bad one.It is unarguable that every extra owner increases the chance that one of them is the sort that you'd prefer were not in the car's history.
But that's a huge assumption to make. You could also assume that most owners are bad. This would statistically mean each new owner would increase your chance of a good owner.
NorthernBoy said:
It is also unarguable that increasing their number in no way decreases the average time that you could expect it to have been in the hands of a bad owner.
and Yes it does.
Car 'x' is 10 years old. 3 owners.
MEAN average of ownership duration 3.333 years per owner
Car 'y' is 10 years old. 9 owners.
MEAN average of ownership duration 1.111 years
If both cars had had 1 bad owner, then car 'x' would have been exposed to the owner for 3 times as long.
I imagine the compound effect of 3 different bad owners would be worse than 1 bad owner over a slightly longer period, but that is pure speculation.
Judging a car on it's condition, price and spec are far more important than number of owners. In fact I couldn't even tell you how many owners my car has had.
I mean it's just a feasible to have a 10 year old car with 2 owners. Owner 1 had it for 9 years and abused it every day. Owner 2 didn't.
Does the low ownership then make it a better car than all cars with 5 or more owners?
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