RE: PH Comparo: BMW M6 vs Nissan GT-R
Discussion
Godzilla said:
Mr Whippy said:
550bhp does sound a bit much. BUT, who cares?
Well personally I love the way derestrictor has been airily boasting that his M6 will not cede any ground to a GT-R then admits 6 or 7 pages in that his has been modified! 
For a fraction of what DMS charge, you can pick up a Cobb AccessPort and get a GT-R to 550hp very easily, and with a custom tune and £300 Y-pipe take it to 570hp or more. http://www.auto-journals.com/journals/Nissan?model...
Try keeping up with that Fritz!
GTR is easy to tune, but just wait for the turbo BMW M cars to get tuned... all of a sudden a GTR's 'cheap' tuning potential won't be seen.
Again, not putting the GTR down, it's clearly a nice performance car, but speed isn't everything... with these kinds of cars where they are all massively capable it's the details and subtleties that make all the difference.
As much as I have read the GTR is enjoyable to drive, not dead and inert, surely it still suffers from massaging a drivers ego a little too much, allowing them to drive to any given roads limit point without effort?
That is something I would sorely miss against an M6 with it's desire to be revved for maximum go, and rwd to keep you on your toes with managing the power put down
Dave
Trommel said:
DJC said:
A question for you though, in order for the GTR to "bury" the M6, just exactly how fast are you envisaging the cars in question travelling? Ive nudged 150 leptons just twice in the UK, both times on multiple carriageway roads. I think I can remember just 2 occasions when I have gone north of 100 leptons on a single carriageway road in the UK and both times, for different reasons, it scared the cr@p out of me.
150 is so simple to get to in something half-quick (an M6 or GT-R certainly count) it's not worth mentioning, and 100 on a single carriageway is surely a day-to-day occurrence out-of-town, both situations obviously where legal.You might have some issue with the GT-R not being a brand which bolsters a fragile ego etc. but I'm sure if you drive one you could see how it may be a quicker car point-to-point than some others (not that it is particularly important in any case).
I prefer the lower-key approach of the M6, but I think the GT-R's abilities are the more impressive.
The rear end of a GTR needs some respect. If you get into one in the wet thinking it is all computer controlled you'll end up in a hedge in no time. In reality the driver aids are no different from any other modern car except it has a controlled centre diff. However, the front and rear diffs are passive. Most M-cars have a controlled rear diff, most Evos have two, many Scoobies have one.
You need to carefully consider the road surface, drain covers, white lines as well as plan ahead a lot because things happen very quickly indeed.
It feels very RWD and remarkably organic in its responses to me, cars before this were Evo, M3, Scooby. It needs far more care than any of them except perhaps the M3 in the snow on 19" summer tyres.
I was impressed by the E60 M5 I tested before choosing the GTR. High speed accleration is good, it was chuckable on my dry test, I even liked SMG. The brakes and vertical body control were lacking though, but then GTR discs crack if you drive them hard, but the brakes take more abuse than M cars (what doesn't?)
I don't agree that turbo M tuning will appear good value compared to the GTR as they will be far too limited by traction so it will take some considerable effort to get into the 10s, whereas this can be done on a standard GTR with just a map in the best cases, and a very low 11 in many others.
Personally, despite developing GTR tuning software, I'm leaving mine with just a tune as on road tyres it is already traction limited in many situations.
You need to carefully consider the road surface, drain covers, white lines as well as plan ahead a lot because things happen very quickly indeed.
It feels very RWD and remarkably organic in its responses to me, cars before this were Evo, M3, Scooby. It needs far more care than any of them except perhaps the M3 in the snow on 19" summer tyres.
I was impressed by the E60 M5 I tested before choosing the GTR. High speed accleration is good, it was chuckable on my dry test, I even liked SMG. The brakes and vertical body control were lacking though, but then GTR discs crack if you drive them hard, but the brakes take more abuse than M cars (what doesn't?)
I don't agree that turbo M tuning will appear good value compared to the GTR as they will be far too limited by traction so it will take some considerable effort to get into the 10s, whereas this can be done on a standard GTR with just a map in the best cases, and a very low 11 in many others.
Personally, despite developing GTR tuning software, I'm leaving mine with just a tune as on road tyres it is already traction limited in many situations.
Edited by john banks on Friday 22 October 14:03
Hey John, nice to see you on here; can't believe you are a noob to PH!
Totally agree of course. The GT-R is predominantly RWD and is very spinnable in the wet, particularly if you are foolhardy enough to turn the ESP off...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgtBEoDXGuE
Tell me this looks as if it lacks driver involvement:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bf7LBb4Bevg
People who claim the car is too Playstation a) need hitting over the head very hard with a hardback copy of Most Overused Cliches and b) must be consciously avoiding reading all the myriad comparison tests and Car of the Year reviews that have placed the GT-R way ahead of even fantastic cars like the R8 V10 and 997.2 TT on driver involvement as well as sheer pace and competency.
Totally agree of course. The GT-R is predominantly RWD and is very spinnable in the wet, particularly if you are foolhardy enough to turn the ESP off...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgtBEoDXGuE
Tell me this looks as if it lacks driver involvement:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bf7LBb4Bevg
People who claim the car is too Playstation a) need hitting over the head very hard with a hardback copy of Most Overused Cliches and b) must be consciously avoiding reading all the myriad comparison tests and Car of the Year reviews that have placed the GT-R way ahead of even fantastic cars like the R8 V10 and 997.2 TT on driver involvement as well as sheer pace and competency.
Godzilla said:
Hey John, nice to see you on here; can't believe you are a noob to PH!
Totally agree of course. The GT-R is predominantly RWD and is very spinnable in the wet, particularly if you are foolhardy enough to turn the ESP off...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgtBEoDXGuE
Tell me this looks as if it lacks driver involvement:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bf7LBb4Bevg
People who claim the car is too Playstation a) need hitting over the head very hard with a hardback copy of Most Overused Cliches and b) must be consciously avoiding reading all the myriad comparison tests and Car of the Year reviews that have placed the GT-R way ahead of even fantastic cars like the R8 V10 and 997.2 TT on driver involvement as well as sheer pace and competency.
Not all of themTotally agree of course. The GT-R is predominantly RWD and is very spinnable in the wet, particularly if you are foolhardy enough to turn the ESP off...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgtBEoDXGuE
Tell me this looks as if it lacks driver involvement:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bf7LBb4Bevg
People who claim the car is too Playstation a) need hitting over the head very hard with a hardback copy of Most Overused Cliches and b) must be consciously avoiding reading all the myriad comparison tests and Car of the Year reviews that have placed the GT-R way ahead of even fantastic cars like the R8 V10 and 997.2 TT on driver involvement as well as sheer pace and competency.
Top Gear Magazine said:
the same corner, the Audi can, and does, move. That's the difference. It's simultaneously less impressive and yet somehow more involving. Strange as it sounds, it's the R8 - a four-wheel drive Audi of all things - that really plugs you into this sort of road, and feeds back what it finds more effectively through the wheel. The GT-R is so fast that it'll already be contemplating the next corner. But what matters more: how quickly you get where you're going or the quality of the experience as you're doing it?
The experience. And that's why the R8 just shades it - because it rewards driver input. In the Nissan, you get the feeling that the car could probably go even faster if it didn't have you, a mere human being, dicking about at the wheel. The GT-R is part car, part Terminator.
The experience. And that's why the R8 just shades it - because it rewards driver input. In the Nissan, you get the feeling that the car could probably go even faster if it didn't have you, a mere human being, dicking about at the wheel. The GT-R is part car, part Terminator.
Does anyone take seriously anything Top Gear say? It is just entertainment.
That is a completely different car from the one I live with daily in all weathers. Journalistic claptrap.
It is just a heavy, stiff, well balanced, large engined (by UK standards) turbo car with a fast but flawed gearbox that sometimes has the front axle take a bit of the torque. There is nothing Terminator about it at all.
That is a completely different car from the one I live with daily in all weathers. Journalistic claptrap.
It is just a heavy, stiff, well balanced, large engined (by UK standards) turbo car with a fast but flawed gearbox that sometimes has the front axle take a bit of the torque. There is nothing Terminator about it at all.
Edited by john banks on Friday 22 October 14:40
john banks said:
Does anyone take seriously anything Top Gear say? It is just entertainment.
That is a completely different car from the one I live with daily in all weathers. Journalistic claptrap.
All magazines are "just entertainment". That's why they have weekly readers and subscribers rather than occasional buyers like AutoTrader does.That is a completely different car from the one I live with daily in all weathers. Journalistic claptrap.
Edited by john banks on Friday 22 October 14:38
I'm not taking sides, just making a point.
I'm not taking sides either, I love both cars, but journalists like to write entertaining copy and often it is cliched.
I suspect the car would be faster on the road and wet track (perhaps not a dry track) and more predictable but with more understeer with more torque to the front wheels and would love to do this, but the AWD module isn't flashable at least on the earlier examples, and the transfer box and front driveshafts have been suspect, they aren't designed to handle lots of torque.
I suspect the car would be faster on the road and wet track (perhaps not a dry track) and more predictable but with more understeer with more torque to the front wheels and would love to do this, but the AWD module isn't flashable at least on the earlier examples, and the transfer box and front driveshafts have been suspect, they aren't designed to handle lots of torque.
Godzilla said:
Hey John, nice to see you on here; can't believe you are a noob to PH!
Totally agree of course. The GT-R is predominantly RWD and is very spinnable in the wet, particularly if you are foolhardy enough to turn the ESP off...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgtBEoDXGuE
Tell me this looks as if it lacks driver involvement:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bf7LBb4Bevg
People who claim the car is too Playstation a) need hitting over the head very hard with a hardback copy of Most Overused Cliches and b) must be consciously avoiding reading all the myriad comparison tests and Car of the Year reviews that have placed the GT-R way ahead of even fantastic cars like the R8 V10 and 997.2 TT on driver involvement as well as sheer pace and competency.
On a track with what are dry weather optimised tyres is quite different to the road though.Totally agree of course. The GT-R is predominantly RWD and is very spinnable in the wet, particularly if you are foolhardy enough to turn the ESP off...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgtBEoDXGuE
Tell me this looks as if it lacks driver involvement:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bf7LBb4Bevg
People who claim the car is too Playstation a) need hitting over the head very hard with a hardback copy of Most Overused Cliches and b) must be consciously avoiding reading all the myriad comparison tests and Car of the Year reviews that have placed the GT-R way ahead of even fantastic cars like the R8 V10 and 997.2 TT on driver involvement as well as sheer pace and competency.
You wouldn't even contemplate driving like that on a wet road I guess? In the dry I guess it's another matter?
Chris Harris tested the 997 GT3 RS against the M3 V8 and GTR and said the GTR traction was stunning out of bends. The traction and rwd'ness of the GTR is clearly better than most then when it's dry? You are making it sound like an oversteering machine... but is that just when you provoke it purposely, mainly in the wet?
From what I've seen on the road, the GTR is a car that can be driven harder and with more pace than most with less effort. While on the same road 911 Turbos and GT3's appear to be taking things steadier, despite them being technically similar on pace.
To me that says the Porsche drivers, and possibly others, are humbled by the car, rather than flattered by it.
It's interesting that the GTR is said to still be full of feel and involvement, but I still think that involvement and reward are two different things.
Sometimes the most fun things in life are the learning curves getting to be good at something, not just having the gift of being really capable given to us on a plate.
Hmmmmmmm indeed...
Dave
Go drive one and you'll get the answers, it isn't anything like what it sounds like you think. You can manhandle it in the dry when stock, with light tuning on stock tyres it can easily be a handful in the dry. It will bite you hard in the wet stock or tuned. I was in a hurry to an emergency in the wet today around country lanes and it would have been very easy to bin it.
Just a little bit of right foot on a wet bend and the back comes around very easily. It is a real challenge I think.
Just a little bit of right foot on a wet bend and the back comes around very easily. It is a real challenge I think.
Edited by john banks on Friday 22 October 17:23
The Chris Harris Autocar video sums it up I think. Its faster than the 997 GT3 round a track in skilled hands because of its superior traction and superfast gearbox. The M3 doesn't really compare. I think the standard discs fade well before the Gt3's in track terms though.
Evo tested the car against the GT3 on the track, R8 V8 in the welsh mountains and the Vette Z06 at Santa Pod and it was a clear winner everywhere.
Its not perfect but its a fine, fine drivers car and as far as I can imagine you could get from sitting in front of a tv with a playstation.
Evo tested the car against the GT3 on the track, R8 V8 in the welsh mountains and the Vette Z06 at Santa Pod and it was a clear winner everywhere.
Its not perfect but its a fine, fine drivers car and as far as I can imagine you could get from sitting in front of a tv with a playstation.
ManOpener said:
john banks said:
Does anyone take seriously anything Top Gear say? It is just entertainment.
That is a completely different car from the one I live with daily in all weathers. Journalistic claptrap.
All magazines are "just entertainment". That's why they have weekly readers and subscribers rather than occasional buyers like AutoTrader does.That is a completely different car from the one I live with daily in all weathers. Journalistic claptrap.
Edited by john banks on Friday 22 October 14:38
I'm not taking sides, just making a point.
anything fast said:
i only pay attention to the power laps as thats the only really factual information they give, how fast a car is round a track with some nice tight bends..
You take that as 'fact' are you totally mad? The conditions and drivers are no way controlled so I doubt there is any real consistency in the results.
nonuts said:
anything fast said:
i only pay attention to the power laps as thats the only really factual information they give, how fast a car is round a track with some nice tight bends..
You take that as 'fact' are you totally mad? The conditions and drivers are no way controlled so I doubt there is any real consistency in the results.
as for fat blokes boasting in pubs i guess they are THE motoring authority and a manufacturers 0-60 and top speed figures reflect 100 % how a car handles and how it puts its power down when going round a bend? Sorry but I'll take the opinion of a professional racing driver...
anything fast said:
nonuts said:
anything fast said:
i only pay attention to the power laps as thats the only really factual information they give, how fast a car is round a track with some nice tight bends..
You take that as 'fact' are you totally mad? The conditions and drivers are no way controlled so I doubt there is any real consistency in the results.
as for fat blokes boasting in pubs i guess they are THE motoring authority and a manufacturers 0-60 and top speed figures reflect 100 % how a car handles and how it puts its power down when going round a bend? Sorry but I'll take the opinion of a professional racing driver...anything fast said:
nonuts said:
anything fast said:
i only pay attention to the power laps as thats the only really factual information they give, how fast a car is round a track with some nice tight bends..
You take that as 'fact' are you totally mad? The conditions and drivers are no way controlled so I doubt there is any real consistency in the results.
as for fat blokes boasting in pubs i guess they are THE motoring authority and a manufacturers 0-60 and top speed figures reflect 100 % how a car handles and how it puts its power down when going round a bend? Sorry but I'll take the opinion of a professional racing driver...Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff