RE: Driven: Lotus Evora S
Discussion
Which is where the Boxster comes into its own, but oh hang on, people will say that's a girl's car. kambites said:
tallmat said:
kambites said:
tallmat said:
PP, Pits didn't say anything that rude, perhaps it's just that Porsche advocats can't take criticism as well as other brand loyalists??
Whilst this is undoubtedly true, they do often seem to have more reason to as well. Porsche fans seem to believe their cars cannot be bettered, and a significant proportion of non-Porsche fans seem to believe that anything is better. Which is a shame really because it does rather stifle reasoned debate when both sides take things so personally. You're right there isn't always a balance in this parish; but take a look at football forums for some real warped bias!
To a certain extent I do understand the Porsche defence league: my first supercar was a 911 3.2 Carrera which I bought based on affordability, sensible servicing and insurance costs. I loved it and felt like a king behind the wheel. And Porsches are often the first sports car for many -- look how
The Pits said:
stuff about the 911
Lotus have released a car which is clearly aimed straight at a market which is completely dominated by the 911. A large part of discussion of a car is always going to be comparing it to its competitors and in this case that means the 911. This car will be a success if it compares well to the 911 and a failure if it doesn't.
Edited by kambites on Wednesday 10th November 11:15
kambites said:
tallmat said:
PP, Pits didn't say anything that rude, perhaps it's just that Porsche advocats can't take criticism as well as other brand loyalists??
Whilst this is undoubtedly true, they do often seem to have more reason to as well. Porsche fans seem to believe their cars cannot be bettered, and a significant proportion of non-Porsche fans seem to believe that anything is better. Which is a shame really because it does rather stifle reasoned debate when both sides take things so personally. A reasonable synopsis based on all the material and reviews out there would be as follows. The Evora is now a drivers car par excellence, a better drive than the Porsche equivalents or even many other much more expensive machines. The interior build quality on the launch model while improved from the Elise was not comparable with that you'll find in a Porsche and many people have concerns. The latest model has improvements in this area as reported, but we'll all have to experience for ourselves and it will take time to change perceptions. It may well now be pretty well built but still not quite up the the Porsche standards which are by all accounts very high. The Evora rear seats are only for small kids but so are the 911's and the Cayman has none. The styling of the Evora is divisive, better viewed in person but not universally admired by everyone. The same can be said for for the Cayman and to a lesser extent the 911.
I can see why someone would by the Evora, they want the best drivers car and are willing to take a leap of faith based on reports of better quality and residuals. I can see why someone would buy a Porsche, long standing proven ability, residuals and bespoke engines and excellent build quality. There are actually more choices for your money out there as well (although the fanboys wouldn't let you say it), GTR, Maserati, Aston, Audi etc.
Balance is everything. In fact I challenge anyone to disagree with any of the above.
It's easy to criticise brand loyalty etc , I've done in many times myself, but If I was moving up to a 60k sports car, it would be a huge step and I don't know if I could gamble on a lotus, it's a different scenario if your a more established buyer, have had a few 911's - - maybe a Ferrari. You probably have garage with a couple of other cars, but if your buying a 60k sports car for the first time, putting your b0ll0x on the line financially walking past a Porsche dealership and into a lotus one is a hard step to make.
Dagnut said:
It's easy to criticise brand loyalty etc , I've done in many times myself, but If I was moving up to a 60k sports car, it would be a huge step and I don't know if I could gamble on a lotus, it's a different scenario if your a more established buyer, have had a few 911's - - maybe a Ferrari. You probably have garage with a couple of other cars, but if your buying a 60k sports car for the first time, putting your b0ll0x on the line financially walking past a Porsche dealership and into a lotus one is a hard step to make.
True, and I think this is Lotus' biggest problem. If they're going to banish their (justified) reputation for shoddy build quality any time soon, they need to make the cars absolutely beyond criticism in this respect. Being "as good as Porsche" (which they aren't anyway) probably isn't good enough, they need to be significantly better. Edited by kambites on Wednesday 10th November 12:55
Dagnut said:
It's easy to criticise brand loyalty etc , I've done in many times myself, but If I was moving up to a 60k sports car, it would be a huge step and I don't know if I could gamble on a lotus, ... but if your buying a 60k sports car for the first time, putting your b0ll0x on the line financially walking past a Porsche dealership and into a lotus one is a hard step to make.
Absolutely Dagnut it's a bit of a gamble but there is always the joy of winning that gamble. Imagine you walk out of the Lotus dealership with the best £60k sports car you can find...All our comments are just that - subjective comments. For anyone in the market for a £60k sports car I suggest you go see and try it out for yourself. Only you can decide if its the best £60k sports car for you.kambites said:
Being "as good as Porsche" (which they aren't anyway) probably isn't good enough,
Obviously that just in your opinion but many will disagree with you myself included. Firstly, I have no great affinity towards Porsches, I had a couple in the 80s, a 924 Turbo which was great fun and surprised many people who didn't know the difference or indeed that such a think even existed and a 944. Both cars were second hand and in terms of build and quality they were two of the finest cars I've owned. Time moves and on and to be honest I'm more of a British sports car fan than anything hence the TVR Griffith and Aston Martin. My wife's beloved Alfa Romeo 3.0 V6 Spider was up for replacement and as much as we both wanted to like the new Brera/Spider it was just too big and heavy and frankly didn't excite. Our daughter already had an Elise for several years so we knew what they were like and they are too impractical for my wife as an everyday car. Then I drove past a Porsche dealer and on the spur of the moment took a test in a 2.9 Boxster and I was amazed. Don't let anyone kid you these are hairdressers cars. The Gen II Boxsters have moved the game on, the 2.7 is now a 2.9 and 0-62 is sub 6 seconds and whilst not Griff 500 league it must be described as a quick car. Handling is excellent in as much as all the controls; steering effort, turn-in, brakes, gear ratios all seem nicely balanced, mid corner you never think "oh, too much lock" or not enough and have to sharpen the line it just flows. Quality wise, it way beyond the Lotus Elise, I accept that they may have moved the game on with the Evora but they had too! There are an awful lot of opinions on here but very few people have driven all the cars being discussed back to back. I've not driven an Evora but I've enjoyed myself in the Elise and now my wife's Boxster and to dismiss the Boxster with such a glib line as "...as good as a Porsche, which they aren't anyway." just displays the ignorance which people are trying to steer away from in this thread. The Pits said:
As ever though this is an article about a new Lotus. For some reason that completely escapes me, porsche loyalists have the time and inclination to come and slate Lotus and their owners. Most of them have never driven a Lotus, let alone an Evora. I honestly don't know why they feel so threatened by a car which, even if wildly successful, will still only sell in tiny numbers compared to any porsche, yes even the panamera. The very thought that someone might have the audacity to prefer another brand seems to irritate them. They seem to be incredulous that a person could be so stupid they are blind to porsche's obvious superiority.
We very rarely see fans of other marques invading Lotus threads with their trademark blend of arrogance and gloomy negativity.
I have no interest in going to a porsche forum to share my views, which are generally not positive towards porsche. I find this behaviour peculiar.
Then again, so is a person of sound mind wanting to own a fast car with an engine placed behind the rear axle.
What are you talking about?We very rarely see fans of other marques invading Lotus threads with their trademark blend of arrogance and gloomy negativity.
I have no interest in going to a porsche forum to share my views, which are generally not positive towards porsche. I find this behaviour peculiar.
Then again, so is a person of sound mind wanting to own a fast car with an engine placed behind the rear axle.
In my last post I referred to your huffiness, you mention 612 posts, all dreary because you didn’t like the comments by SFO, so you move the discussion off topic and start to undermine his posts for some reason, this has nothing to do with the Evora, it’s more personal and is just away of attacking someone who listed specific items he/she found at fault on a viewing
I’m not a brand loyalist of any kind; having owned TVR’s, Porsches and M cars gives me an objective perspective, we all have different opinions, but many of us don’t take it as a personal insult when someone disagrees with them and starts to undermine some ones posts by tarring every one who buys a particular brand of car as threatened, irritated, incredulous, arrogance and gloomy negativity, peculiar. (All words you used) or going off topic and calling people dreary.
cathalm
Good post and shows an open minded approach. Many posters on PS heads can’t understand, what the main buying criteria is for one person is not the same for someone else.
At the moment I’m really struggling to find a 4 seater which ticks all the boxes, looked at a Maserati GranSport a few weeks ago, seemed like a step backwards and only comes with autogear box.
The search continues
RichB said:
... and to dismiss the Boxster with such a glib line as "...as good as a Porsche, which they aren't anyway." just displays the ignorance which people are trying to steer away from in this thread.
I don't understand this comment. Firstly we were talking only about build quality, and secondly how was saying that the Evora isn't as good as a Porsche, dismissing the Boxster? 
Edited by kambites on Wednesday 10th November 13:17
kambites said:
It wasn't meant to be a statement of what I want in a car. It was a statement of what I think Lotus need to do in order to actually sell enough to make a profit.
Maybe but I don't see how you can dismiss all Porsches as not being very good? Compared to what? Compared to a Zonda maybe not, although the Carrera GT is right up there. But in my experience compared to an Alfa Spider/Brera they are excellent, you see my point? RichB said:
kambites said:
It wasn't meant to be a statement of what I want in a car. It was a statement of what I think Lotus need to do in order to actually sell enough to make a profit.
Maybe but I don't see how you can dismiss all Porsches as not being very good? Compared to what? Compared to a Zonda maybe not, although the Carrera GT is right up there. But in my experience compared to an Alfa Spider/Brera they are excellent, you see my point? I said the Evora was not built as well as a Porsche and you slate me for dismissing Porsches? I am thoroughly confused.
Edited by kambites on Wednesday 10th November 13:20
kambites said:
RichB said:
kambites said:
It wasn't meant to be a statement of what I want in a car. It was a statement of what I think Lotus need to do in order to actually sell enough to make a profit.
Maybe but I don't see how you can dismiss all Porsches as not being very good? Compared to what? Compared to a Zonda maybe not, although the Carrera GT is right up there. But in my experience compared to an Alfa Spider/Brera they are excellent, you see my point? I said the Evora was not built as well as a Porsche and you slate me for dismissing Porsches? I am thoroughly confused.
In which case ignore everything I said 
p.s. I think it's because I read the "they" in your comment to refer to Porsches and it actually refers to Evoras...
Edited by RichB on Wednesday 10th November 13:23
RichB said:
Well I thought you were dismissing all Porsches as not very good, certainly that's the way your post reads? Sorry...
Not at all, and I genuinely have no idea how you think my post implies that. I am fully aware of how capable modern Porsches are, even if I'm not a huge fan of the way they drive myself (can't stand the variable ratio steering rack in the Cayman and later Boxsters, which is a shame considering how good the rest of the platform is). However, I would be somewhat surprised if the Evora S doesn't drive better because (1) driver enjoyment has always been Lotus' main (and indeed often only) focus and (2) most of the press reviews say it drives better. All I was saying is that Lotus need to strive for higher build quality than Porsche in order to rectify their deservedly poor reputation in this area.
sunsurfer said:
Dagnut said:
It's easy to criticise brand loyalty etc , I've done in many times myself, but If I was moving up to a 60k sports car, it would be a huge step and I don't know if I could gamble on a lotus, ... but if your buying a 60k sports car for the first time, putting your b0ll0x on the line financially walking past a Porsche dealership and into a lotus one is a hard step to make.
Absolutely Dagnut it's a bit of a gamble but there is always the joy of winning that gamble. Imagine you walk out of the Lotus dealership with the best £60k sports car you can find...All our comments are just that - subjective comments. For anyone in the market for a £60k sports car I suggest you go see and try it out for yourself. Only you can decide if its the best £60k sports car for you.
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