RE: Driven: Lotus Evora S
Discussion
Agent Orange said:
kambites said:
Agent Orange said:
kambites said:
I think caring what badge is on the front of a car is a bit sad, whether it's a Porsche badge or a Hyundai one.
Sorry to pickup on this but in which case what made you choose a Lotus over a Vauxhall...
RichB said:
Agent Orange said:
kambites said:
Agent Orange said:
kambites said:
I think caring what badge is on the front of a car is a bit sad, whether it's a Porsche badge or a Hyundai one.
Sorry to pickup on this but in which case what made you choose a Lotus over a Vauxhall...Agent Orange said:
kambites said:
Agent Orange said:
kambites said:
I think caring what badge is on the front of a car is a bit sad, whether it's a Porsche badge or a Hyundai one.
Sorry to pickup on this but in which case what made you choose a Lotus Elise over a Vauxhall VX220/220 Turbo?To bring it back onto topic, I'd have an Evora S in a heartbeat. I cannot say the same of Porsche - no aspiration for me at all, but I understand everyone is different.
chevronb37 said:
I can't understand what's wrong with aspiring towards a certain brand of car? I could've bought a nice VXT instead of the Elise, but I'd always wanted a Lotus and my yearning to own one wasn't going to go away if I had a VX. Equally, my old man recently parted with a huge chunk of cash to buy his dream car - an Aston. You might argue that a Jag XKR for the same price would get to 60mph 0.3 of a second quicker but when you are passionate about cars and feel an affinity with a particular marque then you act with your heart rather than your head. I don't feel there is anything wrong with acting with almost total subjectivity over an automotive purchase - that is what loving cars is all about for me.
To bring it back onto topic, I'd have an Evora S in a heartbeat. I cannot say the same of Porsche - no aspiration for me at all, but I understand everyone is different.
Completely and utterly agree and equally I don't understand why people should feel embarrassed about being drawn to a brand - hence my question above.To bring it back onto topic, I'd have an Evora S in a heartbeat. I cannot say the same of Porsche - no aspiration for me at all, but I understand everyone is different.
kambites said:
There's nothing wrong with it, people should buy whatever makes them happy, I just don't understand it.
Anyway, the VX220 is a Lotus, whatever badge it has on the front.
Yes buy whatever makes you happy. The badge may sway it for me too.Anyway, the VX220 is a Lotus, whatever badge it has on the front.
Edited by kambites on Wednesday 10th November 17:19
I half remember that the Vauxhall engine or head is Lotus designed which may make the VX220 more of a Lotus than the Elise
Agent Orange said:
kambites said:
Agent Orange said:
kambites said:
I think caring what badge is on the front of a car is a bit sad, whether it's a Porsche badge or a Hyundai one.
Sorry to pickup on this but in which case what made you choose a Lotus Elise over a Vauxhall VX220/220 Turbo?DJC said:
S'funny how different folks find the same cars. I really liked both iterations of the 220 and felt they were more interesting cars than either the Mk 1 or 2 Elises I drove. I thought the NA 220 had a great engine with the low down torque giving you a good slug of grunt and the turbo was just a rocket ship, cracking powerplant! The standout Elise memory I have is specifically loathing the brakes thinking them the worst with regards to feel I had ever driven.
The Elise is extremely pad sensitive (I suppose because of the lack of servo assistance?). When I got my car it had GreenStuff pads on which are universally recognised as the worst pads in the world for the Elise and they felt absolutely dire. The difference with decent pads is astounding, with the Mintex pads I have on now, they are the best brakes I have ever used on a car (except for being rather squeaky).I would agree that the NA 220 is a better engine than the K-series standard Elise, but it falls well short of the 111S. The turbo just felt too lazy to me, it didn't seem to suit the car at all. Plus the turbo models (except the VXR, apparently) are rather too softly sprung as standard for my liking. I actually thought the N/A was a better car than the Turbo.
Anyway, this is getting a little off topic.
Edited by kambites on Wednesday 10th November 22:49
Fact is Lotus doesn't have enough recent heritage in that price/performance range to appeal to the market. Not enough Elise owners will move up to Evora to make an impact no matter how good the car is.
Expensive sports cars are aspirational, and for most buyers it take the better part of 40 years of school, career, marriage and kids before they have the disposables to buy one. 911s, Astons and Ferraris are recognisable but are modern, cutting edge, so you can dream about them for years, then finally get to the pinnacle, you buy the latest, greatest one, achieving your dream. Not so many people dream of Evoras because they have no recent history. The Esprit was long in tooth, and out of the market for years already.
The newest batch of proposed Lotus will have to appeal to 50ish plus who remember the Esprit or 40s who remember fondly their elises. I think Lotus needs another 10 years of successful F1, and staying true to the design language and ethos of the Elise to build a new generation of buyers. The new elise and the new esprit will be the make or break models to stay relevant.
Expensive sports cars are aspirational, and for most buyers it take the better part of 40 years of school, career, marriage and kids before they have the disposables to buy one. 911s, Astons and Ferraris are recognisable but are modern, cutting edge, so you can dream about them for years, then finally get to the pinnacle, you buy the latest, greatest one, achieving your dream. Not so many people dream of Evoras because they have no recent history. The Esprit was long in tooth, and out of the market for years already.
The newest batch of proposed Lotus will have to appeal to 50ish plus who remember the Esprit or 40s who remember fondly their elises. I think Lotus needs another 10 years of successful F1, and staying true to the design language and ethos of the Elise to build a new generation of buyers. The new elise and the new esprit will be the make or break models to stay relevant.
kambites said:
Lotus can't survive another 10 years of staying true to the design ethos of the Elise. They need to make a profit.
Lotus can't survive another 50 years of staying true to their traditional design ethos. They need to make a profit.They've been in financial trouble of one kind or another pretty much throughout their existence. More owners than you can shake a stick at and plenty of financial skullduggery (De Lorean) along the way.
I think bringing up the VX220 was an attempt to prove that Lotus fans are badge snobs too. I'm happy to add to the disappointment. It's a cracking car. I had my hands full keeping up with a turbo version around Anglesey in my 111r. Unless he was a much better driver, it was the quicker car.
As for Dr Evil's comments I don't agree. I think brand loyalty is at an all time low generally. Which isn't a bad thing. The R8 has no race pedigree, nor the Nissan GTR, among others yet that is no barrier. Only old school enthusiasts (who rarely have the money to buy new) care much for race pedigree. You mention Aston Martin. They sold less than 40 cars a year for much of the 90's. So much for pedigree there. Equally jaguar have a glorious race pedigree but their current cars don't seem to appeal much to hard core car enthusiasts either. If there is an antithesis of 'race pedigree' it's probably Lamborghini and they've sold 5000 Murcielagos and countless more Gallardos.
Most wealthy people aren't that into cars and besides I think it helps to get wealthy in the first place if you aren't that into cars!
Back to the Evora I really welcome the news that the gearchange is much improved. Until I drove a toyota engined Elise I hadn't driven a Lotus with a gearchange that actually added to the driving experience. So it's a traditional weak spot for me.
It should be noted that from January the standard Evora will benefit from the S's improvements in gearchange and interior quality. The standard car is now looking quite trim at 1380kg and great value for less than £50k basic. Unfortunately for me I'm the sort who likes more power than is strictly necessary. For those happy to enjoy 'perfectly adequate power' the standard car is looking like a brilliant buy.
As for Dr Evil's comments I don't agree. I think brand loyalty is at an all time low generally. Which isn't a bad thing. The R8 has no race pedigree, nor the Nissan GTR, among others yet that is no barrier. Only old school enthusiasts (who rarely have the money to buy new) care much for race pedigree. You mention Aston Martin. They sold less than 40 cars a year for much of the 90's. So much for pedigree there. Equally jaguar have a glorious race pedigree but their current cars don't seem to appeal much to hard core car enthusiasts either. If there is an antithesis of 'race pedigree' it's probably Lamborghini and they've sold 5000 Murcielagos and countless more Gallardos.
Most wealthy people aren't that into cars and besides I think it helps to get wealthy in the first place if you aren't that into cars!
Back to the Evora I really welcome the news that the gearchange is much improved. Until I drove a toyota engined Elise I hadn't driven a Lotus with a gearchange that actually added to the driving experience. So it's a traditional weak spot for me.
It should be noted that from January the standard Evora will benefit from the S's improvements in gearchange and interior quality. The standard car is now looking quite trim at 1380kg and great value for less than £50k basic. Unfortunately for me I'm the sort who likes more power than is strictly necessary. For those happy to enjoy 'perfectly adequate power' the standard car is looking like a brilliant buy.
Some good points about Lotus having to build a reputation again with the younger crowd and comparisons with Aston and Jaguar. I think its right that Lotus will have to work hard on brand perception with people who aren't car enthusiasts. They have the right man at the helm for that though, say what you like about Dany Bahar but he knows branding. Many of his plans, Lotus lifestyles magazine, Lotus branding shops, product placement, dealers all being sacked in favour of brand tastic "Lotus Centres", all this stuff is what they will have to do. The F1 thing is difficult since it is not actually Lotus. The real problem with it is what happens if they win. If ever they were to start winning, then you would see the Malaysian flag and anthem. Bahar is trying to build a new Lotus brand around the history and Britishness of the brand, he knows this will be very damaging. He made that case to Proton who agree and that's the source of the law suits right now. That's aside from their plans to move the team to Malaysia at Sepang (which will almost certainly mean they wont ever win anyway).
Regarding the comparison with Aston and Jag. Aston did have a to make a huge comeback, but they had investment and the right people in place, just as Lotus do. What they had though was the Bond factor, it's a priceless branding tool, Bahar should get the Esprit in a new Bond film if he can. I don't agree that Jaguar cars arent liked by enthusiasts now, in fact I think they really are. Since their design based revival attitudes have changed away form the old man image, petrolheads generally love the XFR and the 5 litre XKR and sales are doing well as a result.
Regarding the comparison with Aston and Jag. Aston did have a to make a huge comeback, but they had investment and the right people in place, just as Lotus do. What they had though was the Bond factor, it's a priceless branding tool, Bahar should get the Esprit in a new Bond film if he can. I don't agree that Jaguar cars arent liked by enthusiasts now, in fact I think they really are. Since their design based revival attitudes have changed away form the old man image, petrolheads generally love the XFR and the 5 litre XKR and sales are doing well as a result.
I happen to love both the XFR and XKR. Jaguar are the only other car company who consistently nails the ride/handling compromise and the R cars are stupendously quick. However no-one under 50, nor much under 60 buys either of them (from new that is). In the absence of the Evora S I'd happily run an XKR as a daily driver but I'd be the only person under 50 to do so. And I've never seen either car at a track day.
I have no idea whether Bahar can actually deliver on the monumentally ambitious plans, nor whether Lotus can ever be more than a niche player to a bunch of die hard enthusiasts. Has anyone with a merely passing interest in cars ever bought a Lotus? It's clear from ph that perceptions are hard to change and many of the perceptions expressed here about Lotus are negative. I mean, people still go on about Alfa's rusting! I'm personally in favour of most of the plans if feeling slightly nauseous about all the 'lifestyle' marketing. That opera evora tv 'ad' was toe-curling and at the same cerebral level as the 'ads' they come up with on the Apprentice. If it helps Lotus continue for a few more years I'll turn a blind eye to it.
I have no idea whether Bahar can actually deliver on the monumentally ambitious plans, nor whether Lotus can ever be more than a niche player to a bunch of die hard enthusiasts. Has anyone with a merely passing interest in cars ever bought a Lotus? It's clear from ph that perceptions are hard to change and many of the perceptions expressed here about Lotus are negative. I mean, people still go on about Alfa's rusting! I'm personally in favour of most of the plans if feeling slightly nauseous about all the 'lifestyle' marketing. That opera evora tv 'ad' was toe-curling and at the same cerebral level as the 'ads' they come up with on the Apprentice. If it helps Lotus continue for a few more years I'll turn a blind eye to it.
Dr Evil said:
Fact is Lotus doesn't have enough recent heritage in that price/performance range to appeal to the market. Not enough Elise owners will move up to Evora to make an impact no matter how good the car is.
Expensive sports cars are aspirational, and for most buyers it take the better part of 40 years of school, career, marriage and kids before they have the disposables to buy one. 911s, Astons and Ferraris are recognisable but are modern, cutting edge, so you can dream about them for years, then finally get to the pinnacle, you buy the latest, greatest one, achieving your dream. Not so many people dream of Evoras because they have no recent history. The Esprit was long in tooth, and out of the market for years already.
So are Zonda, Koenigsegg and Maclaren treading water for 50 years...?Expensive sports cars are aspirational, and for most buyers it take the better part of 40 years of school, career, marriage and kids before they have the disposables to buy one. 911s, Astons and Ferraris are recognisable but are modern, cutting edge, so you can dream about them for years, then finally get to the pinnacle, you buy the latest, greatest one, achieving your dream. Not so many people dream of Evoras because they have no recent history. The Esprit was long in tooth, and out of the market for years already.
Was the popularity of the R8, the NSX,the M1 and other supercars that haven't come from a manufacturer with "recent history" the mistaken choices of buyers who should have known better?
tallmat said:
Dr Evil said:
Fact is Lotus doesn't have enough recent heritage in that price/performance range to appeal to the market. Not enough Elise owners will move up to Evora to make an impact no matter how good the car is.
Expensive sports cars are aspirational, and for most buyers it take the better part of 40 years of school, career, marriage and kids before they have the disposables to buy one. 911s, Astons and Ferraris are recognisable but are modern, cutting edge, so you can dream about them for years, then finally get to the pinnacle, you buy the latest, greatest one, achieving your dream. Not so many people dream of Evoras because they have no recent history. The Esprit was long in tooth, and out of the market for years already.
So are Zonda, Koenigsegg and Maclaren treading water for 50 years...?Expensive sports cars are aspirational, and for most buyers it take the better part of 40 years of school, career, marriage and kids before they have the disposables to buy one. 911s, Astons and Ferraris are recognisable but are modern, cutting edge, so you can dream about them for years, then finally get to the pinnacle, you buy the latest, greatest one, achieving your dream. Not so many people dream of Evoras because they have no recent history. The Esprit was long in tooth, and out of the market for years already.
Was the popularity of the R8, the NSX,the M1 and other supercars that haven't come from a manufacturer with "recent history" the mistaken choices of buyers who should have known better?
Honda sold the NSX on an ongoing F1 programme linked to Senna. It also didn't do very well sales wise
Audi have the Le Mans history, Audi Quattros and legacy buyers from the TT. no coincidence the cars look similar to one another.
MacLaren, F1 car and F1 racing.
M1 the only supercar that BMW have done but then they also do the Z's and the M cars. They are already a sports brand to many people.
Zonda and the Koenigsegg are fine examples though.
Dr Evil said:
Fact is Lotus doesn't have enough recent heritage in that price/performance range to appeal to the market.
I think this is one of the most bullsh!t statements on this thread, and there have been quite a few!Percieved reliability, resuidual value uncertainty and relative lack of a dealers, I would suggest are closer to the mark, limiting "appeal to the market", all of which the established players (in this price range) have covered.
British Beef said:
Dr Evil said:
Fact is Lotus doesn't have enough recent heritage in that price/performance range to appeal to the market.
I think this is one of the most bullsh!t statements on this thread, and there have been quite a few!Obviously this doesn't account for all buyers in the market, but it's a frightening proportion (on here, it's easy to forget how big a proportion, because that end of the market isn't likely to be interested in Pistonheads) and that is something that Lotus have to deal with. None of this has any bearing on whether the Evora is a better car than a 911, but I suspect it will be what determines whether it sells.
Of course once you get into the Esprit type market, the buyers head even more that way. What proportion of V8 Ferrari buyers have a significant interest in driving? How many of the things never even leave London?
Edited by kambites on Thursday 11th November 16:52
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