RE: Caterham Readying 'Entirely New' Car
Discussion
JonRB said:
Martin Keene said:
This... I said something similar a few pages ago. But when have minor details like selling the IP of Lotus' biggest cash generator got in the way...
If Lotus don't want to make the current Elise any more it would make a lot of sense to license it to Caterham and there is historical precedent. They don't have to give up the IPR. Martin Keene said:
JonRB said:
Martin Keene said:
This... I said something similar a few pages ago. But when have minor details like selling the IP of Lotus' biggest cash generator got in the way...
If Lotus don't want to make the current Elise any more it would make a lot of sense to license it to Caterham and there is historical precedent. They don't have to give up the IPR. Something about LVVA (Lotus variable vehicle architecture)???
Not that I think there is much likelihood of Caterham acquiring the rights to produce the Elise chassis... surely it's too much of a leap compared to their current activity? tubular vs bonded Aluminium; front engined vs mid engined; Comedy doors vs real doors; yadda yadda...
Edited by surrey7er on Thursday 16th December 15:22
Interesting (and coincidental?!) that Caterham refer to the Elise chassis in this months newsletter, not sure about the reply as to Q: "Why do Caterham not produce a chassis similar to the Lotus?"
A: "The answer is simple one; the Caterham spaceframe is something that Colin Chapman spent many hours honing, adding and removing tubes throughout the chassis, compromising stiffness for weight and visa versa" (sic)
http://www.caterham.co.uk/assets/pdf/caterham_life...
A: "The answer is simple one; the Caterham spaceframe is something that Colin Chapman spent many hours honing, adding and removing tubes throughout the chassis, compromising stiffness for weight and visa versa" (sic)
http://www.caterham.co.uk/assets/pdf/caterham_life...
Edited by danp on Thursday 23 December 16:47
MKnight702 said:
Wilburo said:
The Westfield XI would be awesome - that could well do with modernising (like a Seven has been modernised, i.e. modern engine and improved rear suspension, not manky bits from a Midget).
Trouble with the XI is that the sleek low Costin designed bonnet isn't high enough for a modern engine (excepting perhaps wankel) and the headlight position is too low for our European legislation.
) and more importantly, a 'Caterham Eleven' has already been built as a one-off (a K-series Caterham de Dion chassis with Alloy 'Eleven' bodywork, slightly enlarged to cover the Caterham's wider track).If I had to place a wild guess, I'd go with the 'Radical' contingent: if it is completely new, then why bother with a new chassis if front engined, 'cos they have a couple of well developed front engine:rwd chassis already. Brave decision if they have, though, since the Radical is very well developed competition.
I too was intrigued by this afternoon's article in Caterham Life about the Elise chassis (which does admit that the Elise's aluminium tub 'brings stiffness to another level that would be very difficult to achieve in mild steel'). They didn't make a very convincing argument for the spaceframe, IMO, except for clinging to the fact that the existing variants are traditional and well developed.
Of course the article could be a massive red herring: it seems to rule out carbon fibre, but I know that Westfield were rumoured to be looking at a new car last year 'similar sort of thing' to the FW400, to quote someone at the factory, so if Caterham got wind, perhaps they decided they didn't want to get caught with their trousers down again?
Some Gump said:
Yeah Sam, the FW400 really hurt Catheram. There must have been at least 12 lost sales due to the new competition =)
It wasn't the direct sales (which were half of what you suggest, even), it was the fact that. for a while, all the the coverage in the motoring press was in terms of Westfield building the 'ultimate' Seven.It's essentially the reason they had to develop the R500... one of the crosses that Caterham have to bear is that if they can't maintain their reputation for pre-eminence, they won't be able to maintain their premium pricing over the competition.
lol Sam, I'm just trying to wind you up =)
Anyways, IMO the Levante was Caterham's answer to the FW400. The R500 is merely the logical conclusion of the Superlight range, and the spiritual sucessor to the JPE. It also took very little development, since it's virtually identical to the existing R300 and R400 platforms.
If Caterham really do want to make a non 7, it'll have to be awesome, otherwise it'll fail - as mentioned in that documentary, even if the Caterham 21 was as good as an Elise, noone would buy it because the lotus name / dealer network would be a bigger draw than the 3 Caterham outlets, and their reputation within a small niche of the market.
Although I'd love it to be more radical, I suspect that the new car will be quite sevenesque...
Anyways, IMO the Levante was Caterham's answer to the FW400. The R500 is merely the logical conclusion of the Superlight range, and the spiritual sucessor to the JPE. It also took very little development, since it's virtually identical to the existing R300 and R400 platforms.
If Caterham really do want to make a non 7, it'll have to be awesome, otherwise it'll fail - as mentioned in that documentary, even if the Caterham 21 was as good as an Elise, noone would buy it because the lotus name / dealer network would be a bigger draw than the 3 Caterham outlets, and their reputation within a small niche of the market.
Although I'd love it to be more radical, I suspect that the new car will be quite sevenesque...
Some Gump said:
lol Sam, I'm just trying to wind you up =)
Don't bother. You'll fail. Miserably. I don't do getting wound up by internet forums, even if I sometimes make it look as if I do. Actually, I really enjoy the resultant banter when people try, as several individuals have learned to their cost.
Some Gump said:
Anyways, IMO the Levante was Caterham's answer to the FW400.
If it was, it was too late to be of any use. The FW400 production terminated in 2000, and essentially the FW400 was yesterday's news after that. The Levante wasn't announced until 8 years later.
The R500 is pretty much universally acknowledged as a direct response, having been launched later the same year, and was basically a 'quick fix' to regaining dominance, by the simple expedient of slotting an expensive and highly tuned engine into the Superlight.
Sadly, Westfield didn't do the logical thing and slot the same expensive and highly tuned K-series engine into the FW, which would have left Caterham with nowhere to go since they'd have run into the brick wall of their chassis technology...
To be fair to Westfield, it wouldn't have made commercial sense as it would have turned a £40K car into a £50K car, and they couldn't sell them even at the lower price. It would have made for an interesting arms race, though, particularly since it would have potentially resulted in the tables being turned and the £35K R500 being the 'budget' option compared to the £50K super-FW.
t" for Christmas, I didn't realise he would be this quick 
I don't know why caterham have this urge to reinvent the wheel.
They do this every decade bring in a new model and it tanks. While the venurable 7 plods along in the background selling hand over fist.
The SV has been a reasonable success because its a 7 for fat people. But the CSR doesn't seem to be a huge success while the 21 didn't sell that well.
To take on radical would be insane to buy the rights to the S1 elise would be a HUGE gamble but it might just work.
They do this every decade bring in a new model and it tanks. While the venurable 7 plods along in the background selling hand over fist.
The SV has been a reasonable success because its a 7 for fat people. But the CSR doesn't seem to be a huge success while the 21 didn't sell that well.
To take on radical would be insane to buy the rights to the S1 elise would be a HUGE gamble but it might just work.
JonRB said:
surrey7er said:
surely it's too much of a leap compared to their current activity? tubular vs bonded Aluminium; front engined vs mid engined;
The Caterham 7 *is* mid-engined - the engine is between the two axle lines. As it goes, I did hear a whisper that the new car Has the engine behind the driver (to be a bit more factual)... Proper midengined.
surrey7er said:
JonRB said:
surrey7er said:
surely it's too much of a leap compared to their current activity? tubular vs bonded Aluminium; front engined vs mid engined;
The Caterham 7 *is* mid-engined - the engine is between the two axle lines. As it goes, I did hear a whisper that the new car Has the engine behind the driver (to be a bit more factual)... Proper midengined.
Sadly I am expecting something 'all new' that looks shockingly like what we have today. I would dearly love to be proved wrong though...
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