Which do you prefer rwd,fwd or 4wd?
Discussion
Scuffers said:
thiscocks said:
...the clutches and the name, and the fact it was made by Haldex. Wait, that means it is infact a Haldex system!
I don't see how it is 'cheap' and your desription of the 'jap high end stuff' pretty much describes the haldex system. Audi use the haldex on alot of it's cars also, plus Landrover. Must be a real 'bodge' system if all these manufacturers want to use it.
look, it's cheap, that's why OEM's use itI don't see how it is 'cheap' and your desription of the 'jap high end stuff' pretty much describes the haldex system. Audi use the haldex on alot of it's cars also, plus Landrover. Must be a real 'bodge' system if all these manufacturers want to use it.
given the choice, your looking at making a 4WD version of your FWD car, you either have to spend a s
t load developing a gearbox with a transfer case etc, or you buy in a Haldex setup.consider the market for this is the type of car that will never actually really test a 4WD system (and yes I include the freelander in this), then it's a no-brainer.
Jeep have been using a 'mans' version of this for years (NV247 etc), Nissan use an electronics controlled version in the first of the slylines, the main difference being that both these are predominantly RWD cars with a clutch to the front, so that the balance of the car is still RWD.
Vag use Torsen III on the more serious platforms (excluding the Veyron)
thiscocks said:
Fair enough. I would just prefer the Haldex as I wouldnt want permanent 4WD (and the fuel economy hit that goes with it)
how did you work this bit out, driven or not, you still have to drag the (un-driven) drive-shafts/diff/etc round? (they are not fitted with free-wheeling hubs or the like).worse thing to my mind is that they still understeer like the FWD versions with all that entails.
doogz said:
Scuffers said:
I have a an audi S4, it does not understeer thanks.
Had A4/6's for years, and yes, older ones did have a tendency to push on, but since torsen III this just does not happen.
It does.Had A4/6's for years, and yes, older ones did have a tendency to push on, but since torsen III this just does not happen.
I've spent a lot of time driving one, as well as previously owning a 3.0 V6 A4.
I'm not sure what you think the centre diff does, but it'll never be sending less than 35% of torque to the front wheels, coupled with the engine hanging off the front axle, results in understeer.
Maybe you don't drive yours hard enough on the roads to notice this, but i assure you, it's there.
Caterhams tend to understeer like a pig until you learn how to drive them
I'd assume enthusiastic drivers modify their style to take account of the balance and drive of the car. If a car has a tendancy to understeer you modify your driving to take account of that. If a car has a tendancy to oversteer (911s for example) you modify your driving to take account of that.
I seem to remember the Caparo understeering everywhere when Clarkson drove it - does that mean it's an understeering car or that Clarkson wasn't driving it correctly? The Stig seemed to do alright in it...
I seem to remember the Caparo understeering everywhere when Clarkson drove it - does that mean it's an understeering car or that Clarkson wasn't driving it correctly? The Stig seemed to do alright in it...
doogz said:
Are your comments really relevant?
Lets seeTwo folk, similar cars
One sayes it understeers
One sayes it doesn't
I said simlar caterhams some folk find them understeering other don't
But everyone here is perfect drivers so it must be the cars
Edited by thinfourth2 on Wednesday 5th January 13:24
doogz said:
Scuffers said:
I have a an audi S4, it does not understeer thanks.
Had A4/6's for years, and yes, older ones did have a tendency to push on, but since torsen III this just does not happen.
It does.Had A4/6's for years, and yes, older ones did have a tendency to push on, but since torsen III this just does not happen.
I've spent a lot of time driving one, as well as previously owning a 3.0 V6 A4.
I'm not sure what you think the centre diff does, but it'll never be sending less than 35% of torque to the front wheels, coupled with the engine hanging off the front axle, results in understeer.
Maybe you don't drive yours hard enough on the roads to notice this, but i assure you, it's there.
It's also for to say that tyres and geometry have an effect on this.
As Ewen says, there are two things at play - one is the characteristic of the car, and the other is how it's driven, and of course the two are related. When one drives a car, one has to use several tools (driving techniques) to make the car do what one wants it to do. The handling of a car is generally expressed by how it reacts to these tools, and what one has to do to work with the car's traits. Mis-understandings can occur when a driver doesn't have a basic mastery of the full range of tools, and I'm afraid Clarkson is in this camp, as demonstrated by his test of the Elise S2 111S. I'd ignore his opinion on the Caparo to be honest - I've not driven one but I've been on track with one and the handling looked fine to me.
I would disagree on the Caterham point, and I have driven several and owned two - Caterhams are pretty much bang in the middle of the spectrum of handling - everything's instinctive, co-operative and with no definite tendency to oversteer or understeer, provided the setup is reasonable (and Caterhams are very sensitive to this). They handle beautifully. The only downsides are the De Dion rear end on bumpy roads offers nowhere near the composure of something independently sprung like an Elise, and the rear end grip in the wet leaves quite a bit to be desired when compared with other FE/RWD cars that I've driven. Fun though!
As for the 4WD Audis, I can only talk about the latest RS4, which can be made neutral, but like a FWD car they require turn-in commitment to do this and the comment above about 4WD Audis understeering and driving like FWD cars is a pretty fair one, especially on the public road where turn-in speeds are necessarily conservative. I recently drove an A5 on track, which was very good, but I'd say that the 4WD Audis are better than these - they don't drive like a FWD Audi, but some of that may be suspension settings on an RS model as opposed to a bog standard model. Certainly Audi 4WD and FWD cars feel more similar to each other than RWD cars such as the current BMW range. I wouldn't say 4WD is in the middle between FWD and RWD - with the 4WD cars I've owned and driven 4WD handling traits tend to have more in common with FWD than RWD. I've had a brief ride in an Evo VI, and that felt different again, and also a brief drive in a Scooby, but I've not had enough experience to comment on either of those really.
I would disagree on the Caterham point, and I have driven several and owned two - Caterhams are pretty much bang in the middle of the spectrum of handling - everything's instinctive, co-operative and with no definite tendency to oversteer or understeer, provided the setup is reasonable (and Caterhams are very sensitive to this). They handle beautifully. The only downsides are the De Dion rear end on bumpy roads offers nowhere near the composure of something independently sprung like an Elise, and the rear end grip in the wet leaves quite a bit to be desired when compared with other FE/RWD cars that I've driven. Fun though!
As for the 4WD Audis, I can only talk about the latest RS4, which can be made neutral, but like a FWD car they require turn-in commitment to do this and the comment above about 4WD Audis understeering and driving like FWD cars is a pretty fair one, especially on the public road where turn-in speeds are necessarily conservative. I recently drove an A5 on track, which was very good, but I'd say that the 4WD Audis are better than these - they don't drive like a FWD Audi, but some of that may be suspension settings on an RS model as opposed to a bog standard model. Certainly Audi 4WD and FWD cars feel more similar to each other than RWD cars such as the current BMW range. I wouldn't say 4WD is in the middle between FWD and RWD - with the 4WD cars I've owned and driven 4WD handling traits tend to have more in common with FWD than RWD. I've had a brief ride in an Evo VI, and that felt different again, and also a brief drive in a Scooby, but I've not had enough experience to comment on either of those really.
Scuffers said:
doogz said:
Scuffers said:
I have a an audi S4, it does not understeer thanks.
Had A4/6's for years, and yes, older ones did have a tendency to push on, but since torsen III this just does not happen.
It does.Had A4/6's for years, and yes, older ones did have a tendency to push on, but since torsen III this just does not happen.
I've spent a lot of time driving one, as well as previously owning a 3.0 V6 A4.
I'm not sure what you think the centre diff does, but it'll never be sending less than 35% of torque to the front wheels, coupled with the engine hanging off the front axle, results in understeer.
Maybe you don't drive yours hard enough on the roads to notice this, but i assure you, it's there.
It's also for to say that tyres and geometry have an effect on this.
P.S. I wouldnt buy a VAG car with haldex 4WD expecting neutral handling balance. I just think for what they are designed for they are pretty good (and fuel consumption is better- relatively to another permanent 4wd system).
thiscocks said:
Scuffers said:
doogz said:
Scuffers said:
I have a an audi S4, it does not understeer thanks.
Had A4/6's for years, and yes, older ones did have a tendency to push on, but since torsen III this just does not happen.
It does.Had A4/6's for years, and yes, older ones did have a tendency to push on, but since torsen III this just does not happen.
I've spent a lot of time driving one, as well as previously owning a 3.0 V6 A4.
I'm not sure what you think the centre diff does, but it'll never be sending less than 35% of torque to the front wheels, coupled with the engine hanging off the front axle, results in understeer.
Maybe you don't drive yours hard enough on the roads to notice this, but i assure you, it's there.
It's also for to say that tyres and geometry have an effect on this.
P.S. I wouldnt buy a VAG car with haldex 4WD expecting neutral handling balance. I just think for what they are designed for they are pretty good (and fuel consumption is better- relatively to another permanent 4wd system).
thinfourth2 said:
Prefer RWD but will never buy a car just because it is RWD it has to be good to drive but don't care which wheels are driven
^^^^^^^ this.On the question of understeer, it would be a very good trick to find a modern car which doesn't have some degree of built-in understeer. Even mid-engined cars now tend to have that trait despite their good potential for "neutral handling". Amongst other issues manufacturers fret about the lawsuits which might arise. Much the same as virtually every car being sold with ABS these days even though there's no specific type approval requirement.
doogz said:
And fair comment on the tyres, although i was driving a new car, but a quick google seems to reveal i'm not the only person in the history of the world to experience understeer in the S4?
I have had S4's back from when the V6 bi-turbo ones came out (S plate), now, that did understeer/oversteer/etc and was plain horrible, nothing to do with being 4WD and everything to do with being a st suspension setup (significantly worse than the A4 2.8Q of the same model.the then RS4 verstion (still V6) they sorted a lot of this out, although it still had the tendency to push-on understeer, it was really when they changed to Torsen III with it's asymmetric split that this became a thing of the past.
Scuffers said:
RobM77 said:
Is the RS4's 4WD system Haldex? I found that an extremely accomplished and comfortable road car, but rather dull and uninvolving through the corners.
nope, Torsen IIIHaldex is only used on the Golf/A3 platform etc. where the engine is transverse.
RobM77 said:
Thanks. I'm wondering if I've driven a Haldex car then... I owned a Celica Carlos Sainz for a bit, and have driven a couple of Imprezas and a few off roaders. I've not driven a 4WD Golf or A3 though, just the FWD versions. I must confess, the Evo VI is the only car I've been in that I thought needed 4WD and benefitted from it. On tarmac roads of course - not snow or off road.
Celica GT-Four CS had a viscous coupling limited slip center differential ( so it's static balance was 50:50)Imprezas have versions of viscous centre differential, some are 50:50, later ones are asymmetric.
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