RE: Senna Signs With Lotus
Discussion
BBS-LM said:
Reserve driver, yeah Senna must be over the moon with that decision.
He was never going to be able to prove himself, though, in one of the 3 new teams. He could have done a superb job last year and no one would have realised. At least now he has his foot in the door of a middle team (that Kubica did very well with last year, don't forget) and is setting himself up for a drive in a year or two when Kubica goes to Ferrari.pits said:
... the Chapman family can go f
k a duck as far as I am concerned, Colin was a great man but it is clear the Chapman family are in it for money and not racing, ...
I am going to support this. That 'family' was happy to get 'some' GBP from Pweter Collins in 1991. they got money then and possibly now from Proton. Two-faced liers.k a duck as far as I am concerned, Colin was a great man but it is clear the Chapman family are in it for money and not racing, ...pits said:
Load of old baloney
So you're not too keen of Lotus then? 
Group Lotus might only be a sponsor for now but will be buying the Renault stake and subsequently entering into corporate stuff with Genii, which will benefit the road car business, as I understand it.
Group Lotus are, to me, "Lotus". They have the heritage of all the road cars and a passing connection to all the F1, Indy cars, sports cars, touring cars, rally cars, etc. of years gone by. Whether they own the rights or not. In fact, Classic Team Lotus own the rights to all F1 (or perhaps all monoposto) Lotuses pre 1992, I believe, so have more shout to use the F1 heritage than anyone, and I suspect they are aligning themselves more and more with their neighbours across Potash Lane.
Not that I necessarily agree with everything going on at Hethel but I like to be positive in my outlook on their future.
In any case, Senna might get himself an occasional drive of an F1 car but no doubt will be put to good use testing Lotus road cars, that track beast of theirs and for general publicity.
AllNines said:
pits said:
Load of old baloney
So you're not too keen of Lotus then? Group Lotus might only be a sponsor for now but will be buying the Renault stake and subsequently entering into corporate stuff with Genii, which will benefit the road car business, as I understand it.
Group Lotus are, to me, "Lotus". They have the heritage of all the road cars and a passing connection to all the F1, Indy cars, sports cars, touring cars, rally cars, etc. of years gone by. Whether they own the rights or not. In fact, Classic Team Lotus own the rights to all F1 (or perhaps all monoposto) Lotuses pre 1992, I believe, so have more shout to use the F1 heritage than anyone, and I suspect they are aligning themselves more and more with their neighbours across Potash Lane.
Not that I necessarily agree with everything going on at Hethel but I like to be positive in my outlook on their future.
In any case, Senna might get himself an occasional drive of an F1 car but no doubt will be put to good use testing Lotus road cars, that track beast of theirs and for general publicity.
AllNines said:
So you're not too keen of Lotus then?
Group Lotus might only be a sponsor for now but will be buying the Renault stake and subsequently entering into corporate stuff with Genii, which will benefit the road car business, as I understand it.
Group Lotus are, to me, "Lotus". They have the heritage of all the road cars and a passing connection to all the F1, Indy cars, sports cars, touring cars, rally cars, etc. of years gone by. Whether they own the rights or not. In fact, Classic Team Lotus own the rights to all F1 (or perhaps all monoposto) Lotuses pre 1992, I believe, so have more shout to use the F1 heritage than anyone, and I suspect they are aligning themselves more and more with their neighbours across Potash Lane.
Not that I necessarily agree with everything going on at Hethel but I like to be positive in my outlook on their future.
In any case, Senna might get himself an occasional drive of an F1 car but no doubt will be put to good use testing Lotus road cars, that track beast of theirs and for general publicity.
I think they have played a blinder, they have effectively bought the team without paying any money for it, yes ok so renault still own it, but who cares, people are in F1 for the image, and the image is, this is a lotus team, and thats what most people will think who are not cars nuts, it's a very good piece of marketing reallyGroup Lotus might only be a sponsor for now but will be buying the Renault stake and subsequently entering into corporate stuff with Genii, which will benefit the road car business, as I understand it.
Group Lotus are, to me, "Lotus". They have the heritage of all the road cars and a passing connection to all the F1, Indy cars, sports cars, touring cars, rally cars, etc. of years gone by. Whether they own the rights or not. In fact, Classic Team Lotus own the rights to all F1 (or perhaps all monoposto) Lotuses pre 1992, I believe, so have more shout to use the F1 heritage than anyone, and I suspect they are aligning themselves more and more with their neighbours across Potash Lane.
Not that I necessarily agree with everything going on at Hethel but I like to be positive in my outlook on their future.
In any case, Senna might get himself an occasional drive of an F1 car but no doubt will be put to good use testing Lotus road cars, that track beast of theirs and for general publicity.
Whilst I agree that what Group Lotus did with Renault made a lot of sense, I really don't understand why they felt the need to try to stop the other Lotus team from using the name. They've made themselves look like complete idiots over the whole affair when they could have had their name on two cars whilst only paying anything for one.
Denorth said:
pits said:
... the Chapman family can go fk a duck as far as I am concerned, Colin was a great man but it is clear the Chapman family are in it for money and not racing, ...
I am going to support this. That 'family' was happy to get 'some' GBP from Pweter Collins in 1991. they got money then and possibly now from Proton. Two-faced liers.k a duck as far as I am concerned, Colin was a great man but it is clear the Chapman family are in it for money and not racing, ...Speak to anyone who was at Snetterton last year (including me) and you will appreciate the extrordinary job they have done. They do it to keep Chapman's spirit alive, certainly not for the money. I had a good chat with Clive Chapman at the Autosport Show the other week - top bloke.
This is what they do - http://www.classicteamlotus.co.uk/Content/heritage...
and we should be eternally grateful. To see all the JPS cars on track at the same time was an amazing sight. And yes I did buy a signed poster at the Show.
I realise Clive has now nailed his colours to the Group Lotus mast and they are funding a proper 'heritage' centre with massively improved facilities for Classic Team Lotus, but its no less than Clive, the cars and the owners deserve IMHO.
Edited by Hedgerley on Tuesday 1st February 20:16
AllNines said:
So you're not too keen of Lotus then?
Group Lotus might only be a sponsor for now but will be buying the Renault stake and subsequently entering into corporate stuff with Genii, which will benefit the road car business, as I understand it.
Group Lotus are, to me, "Lotus". They have the heritage of all the road cars and a passing connection to all the F1, Indy cars, sports cars, touring cars, rally cars, etc. of years gone by. Whether they own the rights or not. In fact, Classic Team Lotus own the rights to all F1 (or perhaps all monoposto) Lotuses pre 1992, I believe, so have more shout to use the F1 heritage than anyone, and I suspect they are aligning themselves more and more with their neighbours across Potash Lane.
Not that I necessarily agree with everything going on at Hethel but I like to be positive in my outlook on their future.
In any case, Senna might get himself an occasional drive of an F1 car but no doubt will be put to good use testing Lotus road cars, that track beast of theirs and for general publicity.
Group Lotus are the REAL Lotus in road car terms, but not racing car terms, that where "Team Lotus" is the real Lotus.Group Lotus might only be a sponsor for now but will be buying the Renault stake and subsequently entering into corporate stuff with Genii, which will benefit the road car business, as I understand it.
Group Lotus are, to me, "Lotus". They have the heritage of all the road cars and a passing connection to all the F1, Indy cars, sports cars, touring cars, rally cars, etc. of years gone by. Whether they own the rights or not. In fact, Classic Team Lotus own the rights to all F1 (or perhaps all monoposto) Lotuses pre 1992, I believe, so have more shout to use the F1 heritage than anyone, and I suspect they are aligning themselves more and more with their neighbours across Potash Lane.
Not that I necessarily agree with everything going on at Hethel but I like to be positive in my outlook on their future.
In any case, Senna might get himself an occasional drive of an F1 car but no doubt will be put to good use testing Lotus road cars, that track beast of theirs and for general publicity.
Group Lotus have the chance to buy shares of the team from Genii Capital, but will they want to pay the price for shares?
Group Lotus have no link with F1, or any open-wheeled racing team, they have just been sponsors to all of them, unless you count making a few bits for their sister companies F1 team. The only history they have is in creating road cars!
PaulMoor said:
Whatever people think I find it telling that the BBC, Autosport and f1.com are all calling the two teams Lotus and Renault, not Team Lotus and Lotus or Lotus Renault or whatever.
I think the Renault driver Kubica summed it up nicely yesterday:From the BBC Test Day 01 coverage
One of the main talking points over the winter break is the row over the use of the Lotus name between Group Lotus, who sponsor the Renault team, and F1's Team Lotus. The whole thing will go to a full trial on 21 March if the two sides do not settle out of court before then. A blunt talking Robert Kubica spoke on the subject at the Renault launch yesterday. Asked if was his dream to drive for Lotus, Kubica replied: "I think Lotus is our sponsor. At least from what I know it is a sponsor. So I could also say it is my dream to drive for Total. I think it would be different if Lotus owned the team and were fully involved into the team." So there.
Hedgerley said:
Denorth said:
pits said:
... the Chapman family can go fk a duck as far as I am concerned, Colin was a great man but it is clear the Chapman family are in it for money and not racing, ...
I am going to support this. That 'family' was happy to get 'some' GBP from Pweter Collins in 1991. they got money then and possibly now from Proton. Two-faced liers.k a duck as far as I am concerned, Colin was a great man but it is clear the Chapman family are in it for money and not racing, ...Speak to anyone who was at Snetterton last year (including me) and you will appreciate the extrordinary job they have done. They do it to keep Chapman's spirit alive, certainly not for the money. I had a good chat with Clive Chapman at the Autosport Show the other week - top bloke.
This is what they do - http://www.classicteamlotus.co.uk/Content/heritage...
and we should be eternally grateful. To see all the JPS cars on track at the same time was an amazing sight. And yes I did buy a signed poster at the Show.
I realise Clive has now nailed his colours to the Group Lotus mast and they are funding a proper 'heritage' centre with massively improved facilities for Classic Team Lotus, but its no less than Clive, the cars and the owners deserve IMHO.
Edited by Hedgerley on Tuesday 1st February 20:16
What I don't understand is - if one wanted to stop sue of 'Team Lotus'name in F1, one wouldn't sell it to third party. OR if one sold the name, one might want to try and avoid giving opinions about sold name 20 years later, especially saying that it was the family that preserved the 'identity':
Clive Chapman:'During 2010, the Chapman Family, as and when appropriate, made it clear to those involved that it would prefer that the Team Lotus name should not be used in Formula One. Indeed, assurances to this effect were received. The Team Lotus identity represents the motor racing legacy of Colin Chapman, and this was preserved by the Chapman Family and invested within Classic Team Lotus' http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/37040.htm...
My personal position: one private team is sponsored by Lotus Cars, another privat team bought the name. Neither is old Lotus, the Team Lotus has some of the old-fashined spirit of old F1 teams. I don't mind seeing both on the grid, but I don't really like bullies and Lotus Cars does look like one (so far).
All seems a bit rich to me, as BOTH sides have bought the heritage.
Fernandes bought from Hunt & Proton bought from Artioli.
Neither have a Chapman on the board.
New dawn Lous might just work, but will have as little to do with the original Lotus car DNA as those top of the range Audis have with an Italian tractor maker
Two companies / empires both desperately seeking and getting publicity, both could easily fall out of love with Lotus (Fernandes could be forced to race as Team Air Asia, and Bahar could just run out of money)
I would rather see 4 Lotus related cars racing rather than none.
Big debate should be which one is Red Bull and which one Torro Rosso?
Fernandes bought from Hunt & Proton bought from Artioli.
Neither have a Chapman on the board.
New dawn Lous might just work, but will have as little to do with the original Lotus car DNA as those top of the range Audis have with an Italian tractor maker
Two companies / empires both desperately seeking and getting publicity, both could easily fall out of love with Lotus (Fernandes could be forced to race as Team Air Asia, and Bahar could just run out of money)
I would rather see 4 Lotus related cars racing rather than none.
Big debate should be which one is Red Bull and which one Torro Rosso?
Lots of bickering about this. I'm just looking forward to the racing. Here you go, this family tree explains why a lot of people are getting annoyed though.
http://joesaward.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/scree...
http://joesaward.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/scree...
Earlier today I had the bright idea to have a read through the programmes from the Classic Team Lotus Festival last June to see if there were any clues as to the CTL opinion of the Fernandes equipe - sadly there are too many glowing passages to fit in here sensibly (from family invites to Goodwood to the Chapmans attending the cars launch) but one thing stood out as acceptance in the Chapman's family eyes (at that time) - Fernandes was presented with an original Chapman Cap to throw into the air upon their first win! A shame then that the lure of a shiney new building was sufficient "Kings Shilling" to their alegency.
Has anyone read the interview with Lotus' Danny Bahar in the March 2011 issue of Automobile? As a long time enthusiast of anything British, my concerns lay in the future of what is quite possibly the last standing saving grace of Britians only mainstream sport car manufacturer, Lotus. My thoughts on the direction of this fine company, I believe, are on par with every journalists and enthusiasts thoughts alike - initial confusion followd by excitement. I can't tell if the butterflies I have in my stomach are from nervousness for the future of Lotus, or from what is arguably one of the most important and exciting times in the companys rich history; it is quite possibly both.
In the same issue of Automobile, an opinion column by Jamie Kitman shows that I am not the only one, and I suppose the recent flood of posts on this site as well prove I am not the only one who has mixed emotions. Looking at the intial unveiling on the web of the new future line-up of Lotus, I was struck with the same mixed emotions in regards to the styling of the new cars as I was on the intial unveiling of the Evora, which was at odds with the styling, as it seemed indifferent, somewhat disproportionate and dare I say, fugly. But as with anything new, I think as people we tend to try and overlay past designs (familiarity) over new ones in our minds (imaginations) and in not being able to find a sense of familiarity we get lost in trying doing so. That is, get lost in trying to find comparisons and similarities from past models (looking for that distinct styling which has made up the DNA of these cars). It is like trying to find some semblence in a family photo of 3 generations of offspring, and when we come up short, our eyes deceiving us, we are put off by the new styling cues. But, and I think the majority of us here, find that once our eyes adjusted to it (i.e. the Evoras styling) we did in fact find those clues of DNA (familiarity) and it is safe to say that we can now say the Evora is unequivocally a Lotus, and of Lotus bloodline a natural and beautiful evolution of such.
The new Elan had this effect on me. But sadly, I can't say the same for the Esprit or any of the other new models on the future podium. If the new Lotus line-up was in fact that family portrait I spoke of earlier, mom might have some explaining to do, and dad might just suspect something of the milk man. To be honest, with all the artists renditions of the new Esprit (and I do understand that it was all just speculation) I really had imagines it being more along the lines of the groundbreaking styling of the new Ferrari 458 Italia (on page 56 of Automobile) or like the Lamborghini Gallardo (which was evident in that white artists rendition of the "new Esprit" that was floating around the web and even showing up in some magazines for a while now). I was particularly dissapointed in the rear of the new Esprit. I will even go as far as to move past saying it is fugly, and come right out and say this, it is downright hideous, nothing short of an abomination!
However, a firm believer that if one business model (and this goes for anything in life) doesn't work (i.e. sticking with what has essentially been the same model line-up, the Elise, with 50 different variations) the natural next step and wise thing to do is to try a different approach. Which in this case of course is opening to the idea of realizing it cannot survive on die hard fans alone and moving up the ladder to appease those with a vastly higher income bracket.
Mr. Bahar has been quoted in saying that Lotus has never held the sole belief that its ONLY philosophy was set in stone in the way of only being restricted to building stripped down lightweight and borderline track toys only spare a minority who is so die hard they are accepting and willing to use their "toys" has minimalist everyday transportation. He states openly that although he does not deny that this has been Lotus' philosophy as of lately (see the past few decades!) it has been Colin Chapmans initiative to create cars that are to be the "whole package", and that it seems that the only reason they have not done this sooner (i.e. 550hp plus supercars with digital amenities and heavier vehicles) is in fact because of the lack of financial support, and therefore financial restrictions, or shall I say financial woes that has undoubtedly plagued the company since its inception. It is Bahars word that Colin Chapman was in the roadgoing game to turn a profit. And that is of course what they intend to do with this new line-up.
However exciting and hopeful this all sounds, one thing that scares me is what he says in the interview, that he and his business partners while changing the business model and taking a huge risk.... verbatim.... "It's like giving the company another last chance, so either we go down in glory or we really make it."
I of course with the very best to Lotus and all its brethern, but I would be lying if I said I wasn't worried about the future of this Legendary company.
Let's all hope to the automobile gods that Lotus "really makes it." I for one will always be rooting for them, and I also know that in time these designs will more than likely grow on me as so many before them. And of course, there is the argument that Loti weren't ever really photogenic, but in the flesh they become something entirely different, something that is nothing short of magic, something that always has managed to capture the essence of Colin Chapmans imagination, even so many years after his death.
LONG LIVE LOTUS!
In the same issue of Automobile, an opinion column by Jamie Kitman shows that I am not the only one, and I suppose the recent flood of posts on this site as well prove I am not the only one who has mixed emotions. Looking at the intial unveiling on the web of the new future line-up of Lotus, I was struck with the same mixed emotions in regards to the styling of the new cars as I was on the intial unveiling of the Evora, which was at odds with the styling, as it seemed indifferent, somewhat disproportionate and dare I say, fugly. But as with anything new, I think as people we tend to try and overlay past designs (familiarity) over new ones in our minds (imaginations) and in not being able to find a sense of familiarity we get lost in trying doing so. That is, get lost in trying to find comparisons and similarities from past models (looking for that distinct styling which has made up the DNA of these cars). It is like trying to find some semblence in a family photo of 3 generations of offspring, and when we come up short, our eyes deceiving us, we are put off by the new styling cues. But, and I think the majority of us here, find that once our eyes adjusted to it (i.e. the Evoras styling) we did in fact find those clues of DNA (familiarity) and it is safe to say that we can now say the Evora is unequivocally a Lotus, and of Lotus bloodline a natural and beautiful evolution of such.
The new Elan had this effect on me. But sadly, I can't say the same for the Esprit or any of the other new models on the future podium. If the new Lotus line-up was in fact that family portrait I spoke of earlier, mom might have some explaining to do, and dad might just suspect something of the milk man. To be honest, with all the artists renditions of the new Esprit (and I do understand that it was all just speculation) I really had imagines it being more along the lines of the groundbreaking styling of the new Ferrari 458 Italia (on page 56 of Automobile) or like the Lamborghini Gallardo (which was evident in that white artists rendition of the "new Esprit" that was floating around the web and even showing up in some magazines for a while now). I was particularly dissapointed in the rear of the new Esprit. I will even go as far as to move past saying it is fugly, and come right out and say this, it is downright hideous, nothing short of an abomination!
However, a firm believer that if one business model (and this goes for anything in life) doesn't work (i.e. sticking with what has essentially been the same model line-up, the Elise, with 50 different variations) the natural next step and wise thing to do is to try a different approach. Which in this case of course is opening to the idea of realizing it cannot survive on die hard fans alone and moving up the ladder to appease those with a vastly higher income bracket.
Mr. Bahar has been quoted in saying that Lotus has never held the sole belief that its ONLY philosophy was set in stone in the way of only being restricted to building stripped down lightweight and borderline track toys only spare a minority who is so die hard they are accepting and willing to use their "toys" has minimalist everyday transportation. He states openly that although he does not deny that this has been Lotus' philosophy as of lately (see the past few decades!) it has been Colin Chapmans initiative to create cars that are to be the "whole package", and that it seems that the only reason they have not done this sooner (i.e. 550hp plus supercars with digital amenities and heavier vehicles) is in fact because of the lack of financial support, and therefore financial restrictions, or shall I say financial woes that has undoubtedly plagued the company since its inception. It is Bahars word that Colin Chapman was in the roadgoing game to turn a profit. And that is of course what they intend to do with this new line-up.
However exciting and hopeful this all sounds, one thing that scares me is what he says in the interview, that he and his business partners while changing the business model and taking a huge risk.... verbatim.... "It's like giving the company another last chance, so either we go down in glory or we really make it."
I of course with the very best to Lotus and all its brethern, but I would be lying if I said I wasn't worried about the future of this Legendary company.
Let's all hope to the automobile gods that Lotus "really makes it." I for one will always be rooting for them, and I also know that in time these designs will more than likely grow on me as so many before them. And of course, there is the argument that Loti weren't ever really photogenic, but in the flesh they become something entirely different, something that is nothing short of magic, something that always has managed to capture the essence of Colin Chapmans imagination, even so many years after his death.
LONG LIVE LOTUS!
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