RE: Ferrari 458 Vs McLaren 12C - The Verdict

[Scuffers]

cymtriks said:

All this talk of turbos being the future due to emmisions...

How far could you go with a naturally aspiated engine before you had to rely on "group average" or low volume agreement?

Curious!

not sure I understand what you mean by that?

the problem for NA engines is that the high performing/high rev'ing ones fall foul of EU5&6 emissions due to NOx, (which makes the 458 engine all the more impressive passing EU5 apparently).

this is why Toyota/Honda/etc are all dropping their high performance NA engines (2ZZ, K20Z4/etc) as to get them re-certified for EU5 (and soon 6) is just too hard work.

this is not the same problem as the EU fleet average CO2 rules, although the net effect is that it's easier to meet both targets with turbo engines.

[otolith]

Ipelm said:

Jeez just look at them! Dogs dinner styling, chasing a pointless goal of unusable real world performance, gadgets designed to flatter the ego's of the drivers.......Just the sort of thing the nouveau riche to go for......hardly suitable for the gentleman/woman who understands the thrill of owning something utterly exquisite. ie. a car that engages the emotions on so many different levels.

Wealth and talent you mention above are irrelevant. I cant afford a great work of art, I can however certainly revel in the emotions that such an object awake within me. Cars should be designed for no less than this.

I can't seem to pin your dislike down to anything more than "they don't do it for me" - which is fine, but highly subjective, especially if your beef is mainly with the styling. As long as they do "it" for enough of those lucky enough to be in the market for them, I guess they'll do fine.

I do find it slightly ironic, though, that another car to be criticised for not being pretty enough and for making achieving massive cross country speed too easy while being insufficiently involving is, well, your S2 Elan. Presumably these were not characteristics which prevented you wanting one?

[Ipelm]

otolith said:

Ipelm said:

Jeez just look at them! Dogs dinner styling, chasing a pointless goal of unusable real world performance, gadgets designed to flatter the ego's of the drivers.......Just the sort of thing the nouveau riche to go for......hardly suitable for the gentleman/woman who understands the thrill of owning something utterly exquisite. ie. a car that engages the emotions on so many different levels.

Wealth and talent you mention above are irrelevant. I cant afford a great work of art, I can however certainly revel in the emotions that such an object awake within me. Cars should be designed for no less than this.

I can't seem to pin your dislike down to anything more than "they don't do it for me" - which is fine, but highly subjective, especially if your beef is mainly with the styling. As long as they do "it" for enough of those lucky enough to be in the market for them, I guess they'll do fine.

I do find it slightly ironic, though, that another car to be criticised for not being pretty enough and for making achieving massive cross country speed too easy while being insufficiently involving is, well, your S2 Elan. Presumably these were not characteristics which prevented you wanting one?

First point you make, fair enough. They are a good chavs choice.

I wondered how long it would take you to query my choice of car. Actually I love my M100 to bits. Since giving up trackdays I was looking for a road car that ticked all of 'my boxes' and the Elan fitted the bill perfectly. With the standard brakes, gear change and a few other defiencies suitably sorted the car is a superb road machine. I love Pete Stephens handy work on the styling front, and finding a rare silk red version from a really trust worthy source was manna from heaven. As for uninvolving....No Way! Every time I drive this car the day becomes really special, and I expect to keep it for a long time.

I very much hope that you enjoy your car as much as I do mine, thanks for the conversation, I hope that at some point I might bump into you at a future PH Sunday Service.

Ian

Edited by Ipelm on Monday 21st February 13:32

[otolith]

Personally, I always liked the M100 Elan - however, the styling and dynamics did receive very much the same kind of criticism you are levelling at these new cars; I brought it up only to illustrate that these things are subjective.

(edited for spacktardery)

Edited by otolith on Monday 21st February 15:29

[CraigyMc]

otolith said:

Personally, I always liked the M100 Elise - however, the styling and dynamics did receive very much the same kind of criticism you are levelling at these new cars; I brought it up only to illustrate that these things are subjective.

I think you mean the M111, which was the Mk.1 Elise.

The M100 was the late 1980's front wheel drive Elan.

[otolith]

CraigyMc said:

I think you mean the M111, which was the Mk.1 Elise.

Nope, I meant the Elan and typed Elise.

[D15]

I've recently had a go in both. The 458 is 'shoutier' - which seems to translate into 'more exciting' in many reviews; however, far less capable. The McLaren is absolutely superb - I'd choose it over the 458 in a second.

[marcosgt]

Holy Thread Ressurection! (There, got it out of the way before someone wastes a post saying it).

I had a very brief go in a 458 and an MP4 12C this morning, but, probably unlike many, it was within minutes of each other.

It was one of these Supercar Driving days, so hardly pushing to the limits or an extensive test, but I probably drove them harder than I would ever do on the road to be honest, although I'm sure even another 5-10 laps would have given me a better insight into the cars.

I drove the 458 first and, wow, what an experience. It feels so immediate and responsive to throttle, steering, brakes and gearchange. I've driven a few fast cars over the years, but this was another level. I always thought I'd not really get the point of something like this, but if I could afford one, I'd have a 458 in a shot, it's such a wonderful driving experience.

Next, the McLaren. Getting in and starting up are more theatrical than the 458, with more buttons to press and those doors to navigate and I think I preferred the cabin, although I think the Ferrari felt a better driving position for me, but maybe that was just luck.

Pulling away, the McLaren felt more muted and, dare I say it, mundane. The gearchange is noticeably slower than the Ferraris and the levers moving with the wheel seemed awkward to me, although I can see it should be easier if you are changing gear in the middle of a turn and I guess you'd get used to it.

I commented to the instructor with me that it seemed slower and less aggresive than the 458 and he reminded me it was turbocharged and needs to be kept more 'on the boil', so gave it a bit more welly and it's certainly impressively quick with impressive direction change. However, the slight turbo lag, slower gearchange and a more detached feeling as the driver, all left me feeling it lagged the Ferrari.

Honestly, I wouldn't be disappointed to own either, but I came away utterly smitten with the Ferrari 458. I suspect the McLaren would be a more usable day to day car, I probably like the way it looks better (in Black in this case) and it's hard to find fault with it, but the Ferrari, to me, just felt a more exciting, involving, enjoyable drive from the second I pulled away.

I can't pretend to have got enough time in either car to compare with the experiences of people who own them, but I thought it was an interesting opportunity to drive two of the hottest supercar properties around. Driving them a day apart, I'm sure they'd both seem utterly brilliant.

I'd never imagined I'd really ever want a supercar, but that changed today and the one I want is a 458...

M

Edited by marcosgt on Saturday 12th April 21:47