Cheap re-map, insurance nightmare?
Discussion
matts4 said:
Maybe some, I was quoting the largest insurer in the UK. (they just ask how long a licence has been held and accept provisional entitlement within that period)
Can you define "largest insurer in the UK" please, as in biggest Personal Lines Motor insurer, or biggest including all lines of business, or biggest worldwide?
so....
this gadget is more expensive but seems highly regarded. PLUS it has the nice feature that, if I understand it right, I can pick and chose when I want to map it i.e. I can return it to stock in time for a service
http://www.mybluefin.co.uk/search?make=2&fuelt...
or should I go down the route of the cheapness and powwwwweeeeeerrrrrrr
:
http://www.more-bhp.com/tt/audi-tt-20-tfsi-200-rem... - £150 for 61bhp?!? me thinks that might be optimistic!
this gadget is more expensive but seems highly regarded. PLUS it has the nice feature that, if I understand it right, I can pick and chose when I want to map it i.e. I can return it to stock in time for a service
http://www.mybluefin.co.uk/search?make=2&fuelt...
or should I go down the route of the cheapness and powwwwweeeeeerrrrrrr
:http://www.more-bhp.com/tt/audi-tt-20-tfsi-200-rem... - £150 for 61bhp?!? me thinks that might be optimistic!
insurance companies are not in the business of paying out if they can help it. And no, they are not fools that don't understand the market Re: remaps on turbo cars.
Don't be an idiot, for the sake of about £40, just pay it and be reassured that if you cabbage someone, you are covered.
Don't be an idiot, for the sake of about £40, just pay it and be reassured that if you cabbage someone, you are covered.
Greg_D said:
insurance companies are not in the business of paying out if they can help it. And no, they are not fools that don't understand the market Re: remaps on turbo cars.
Don't be an idiot, for the sake of about £40, just pay it and be reassured that if you cabbage someone, you are covered.
not sure if that's aimed at me - I've said from the beginning that I will be declaring the mod Don't be an idiot, for the sake of about £40, just pay it and be reassured that if you cabbage someone, you are covered.
EvoSlayer said:
Most modern ecu's will log maximum revs, overrevs, maximum boost, engine hours, average speed yadda yadda and will have some form of flash counter. In other words it can not only be ascertained if the car has been re-flashed but how many times, including restoring factory defaults and using the time stamp (engine hours) can calculate roughly when it was done using average mph for example.
If they can be bothered to look, they WILL know, do not be deluded.
Evoslayer, where did you get the above info from?If they can be bothered to look, they WILL know, do not be deluded.
Edited by EvoSlayer on Wednesday 23 February 06:09
The reason I ask is I recently spent a day with DMS tuning in Southampton whilst they re-mapped my XF.
Here is the exact method they used:
Power removed and ECU removed from car.
OEM map downloaded from ECU direct.
Programmer then goes into downloaded map and (this bit lost me) started to adjust 1's & 0's.
After an hour or so of adjustment, uploaded the OEM map with the adjusted digits.
ECU refitted and everything hooked back up.
According to DMS, if Jaguar download the map it will be the OEM map, it will even be date stamped with the original OEM date. As there was no power to any of the cars systems when the ECU was removed there will be nothing recorded bar the power cut off.
Bottom line, I asked wether the map was traceable? The answer was unless the dealer asks for the original map for your car from the factory (as all maps are set at the factory and differ slightly for each car) Then sit with the printout from your car and the OEM map and match all of the 1's & 0's (were talking 100's of pages of A4 here) then no.
I then asked if Jag could use any other method to find out, to which he said "yes.....When they drive it"!
Obviously this is only applicable to the map done on my Jag on that day, if maps on other cars differ, then so be it. But as far as I am aware, they are not as easy to detect via software as people think.
zx10ben said:
Evoslayer, where did you get the above info from?
The reason I ask is I recently spent a day with DMS tuning in Southampton whilst they re-mapped my XF.
Here is the exact method they used:
Power removed and ECU removed from car.
OEM map downloaded from ECU direct.
Programmer then goes into downloaded map and (this bit lost me) started to adjust 1's & 0's.
After an hour or so of adjustment, uploaded the OEM map with the adjusted digits.
ECU refitted and everything hooked back up.
According to DMS, if Jaguar download the map it will be the OEM map, it will even be date stamped with the original OEM date. As there was no power to any of the cars systems when the ECU was removed there will be nothing recorded bar the power cut off.
Bottom line, I asked wether the map was traceable? The answer was unless the dealer asks for the original map for your car from the factory (as all maps are set at the factory and differ slightly for each car) Then sit with the printout from your car and the OEM map and match all of the 1's & 0's (were talking 100's of pages of A4 here) then no.
I then asked if Jag could use any other method to find out, to which he said "yes.....When they drive it"!
Obviously this is only applicable to the map done on my Jag on that day, if maps on other cars differ, then so be it. But as far as I am aware, they are not as easy to detect via software as people think.
That's an interesting post and I'd be interested in other views from people who look at ECU's.The reason I ask is I recently spent a day with DMS tuning in Southampton whilst they re-mapped my XF.
Here is the exact method they used:
Power removed and ECU removed from car.
OEM map downloaded from ECU direct.
Programmer then goes into downloaded map and (this bit lost me) started to adjust 1's & 0's.
After an hour or so of adjustment, uploaded the OEM map with the adjusted digits.
ECU refitted and everything hooked back up.
According to DMS, if Jaguar download the map it will be the OEM map, it will even be date stamped with the original OEM date. As there was no power to any of the cars systems when the ECU was removed there will be nothing recorded bar the power cut off.
Bottom line, I asked wether the map was traceable? The answer was unless the dealer asks for the original map for your car from the factory (as all maps are set at the factory and differ slightly for each car) Then sit with the printout from your car and the OEM map and match all of the 1's & 0's (were talking 100's of pages of A4 here) then no.
I then asked if Jag could use any other method to find out, to which he said "yes.....When they drive it"!
Obviously this is only applicable to the map done on my Jag on that day, if maps on other cars differ, then so be it. But as far as I am aware, they are not as easy to detect via software as people think.
The bit highlighted above is what I referred to above and a decent dealer mechanic who drives the same model(s) every day will definitely notice a difference. I think the phrase used to be "you've got a good one there!"
Obviously in the case of a serious RTA then the car might not be available in one piece to test.
Having re-read my post there is one point I didn't raise and that is a power one! Its all very well cutting all power to the vehicle etc, but surely there must be power required to download/upload the map from the ECU i.e. When its connected to the computer via USB or equivalent, or if its flash memory is power required? Any IT geekers able to shine some light?
DMS were pretty confident, so I'm happy to take their word, but its just a thought!
DMS were pretty confident, so I'm happy to take their word, but its just a thought!
zx10ben said:
Having re-read my post there is one point I didn't raise and that is a power one! Its all very well cutting all power to the vehicle etc, but surely there must be power required to download/upload the map from the ECU i.e. When its connected to the computer via USB or equivalent, or if its flash memory is power required? Any IT geekers able to shine some light?
DMS were pretty confident, so I'm happy to take their word, but its just a thought!
It is definitely technically possible that the ECU will record the change, but whether it does or not is a different matter. If they're confident it doesn't record anything, or if they manage to find a way to change the datestamp of the change, then it's all good DMS were pretty confident, so I'm happy to take their word, but its just a thought!
But as you say, for them to be changing anything on the ECU it clearly has power and would be capable of recording those changes.
DamianBPhoto said:
Also my renewal is due in march, I passed in may 2007. Would I be able to get away with saying I have been driving for 5 years rather than 4? £100 difference.
Insure it correctly now, and then ring them up when it's five years by the date on your licence to amend your details from four years to five. I did this, changing from 11 months to 1 year, and got an instant refund of two hundred quid or so Greg_D said:
insurance companies are not in the business of paying out if they can help it. And no, they are not fools that don't understand the market Re: remaps on turbo cars.
Don't be an idiot, for the sake of about £40, just pay it and be reassured that if you cabbage someone, you are covered.
Whilst I agree that insurance companies will do anything to get out of paying and for the sake of £40 its worth declaring a remap, I have never heard of a single case where an insurance company has analysed the ECU to see if it has been remapped and then voided the insurance based on that. Obviously if supporting mods aren't declared such as exhaust systems and induction kits then you're in a world of trouble but the inspectors don't go to the lengths of comparing ECUs to standard. Don't be an idiot, for the sake of about £40, just pay it and be reassured that if you cabbage someone, you are covered.
carmonk said:
Elephant charge like... well, an elephant, when it comes to mods. Can't recall the exact figure but I seem to remember about £10 per extra BHP. That said, they've always been the cheapest by a large margin for standard performance cars.
I've declared a whole stack of mods on my track car (exhaust, chip, suspension, etc) and Elephant wanted a whole £10 / year extra for them.zx10ben said:
Evoslayer, where did you get the above info from?
Here you go, this is for Honda's (specifically one's that have been over-revved by people selecting 2nd instead of 4th gear, blowing their engines and then feigning innocence) but all modern cars log this information nowhttp://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.stroud1/images/...
Honda said:
Background:
Customer reports that there is a problem with the
vehicle's engine. Either the engine does not start, or the
engine runs but a knocking can be heard.
For diagnosis, it can be very difficult for the technician
to identify a true cause.
In a number of returned components analysis has
shown that the cause of the engine failure/noise was
due to the engine exceeding its designed maximum
engine speed.
Countermeasure
An engine over-speed DTC facitlity has been added to
the ECM.
Diagnostic Information:
Using HDS check for a DTC, if 119-1 (Engine
Over-speed Condtition) is found select the Freeze Data
option. From this you will be able see the last recorded
engine data, including engine RPM
And yes, the screenshot in the service bulletin shows someone revved their engine to 22184 rpm Customer reports that there is a problem with the
vehicle's engine. Either the engine does not start, or the
engine runs but a knocking can be heard.
For diagnosis, it can be very difficult for the technician
to identify a true cause.
In a number of returned components analysis has
shown that the cause of the engine failure/noise was
due to the engine exceeding its designed maximum
engine speed.
Countermeasure
An engine over-speed DTC facitlity has been added to
the ECM.
Diagnostic Information:
Using HDS check for a DTC, if 119-1 (Engine
Over-speed Condtition) is found select the Freeze Data
option. From this you will be able see the last recorded
engine data, including engine RPM
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