335i vs E46 M3 vs 996
Discussion
This is a cop out answer, but worth posting (I hope!). All three cars are great, and it just depends where your priorities lie really!
My thoughts:
996 - proper sports car, low CofG etc. Could be pricey to run due to age and cost of core components.
M3 - fast saloon car, and pretty much as good as fast saloons get. As above with running costs.
335i - as above, but trading performance and interest for reliability, cost of running and a better appointed more modern cabin.
My thoughts:
996 - proper sports car, low CofG etc. Could be pricey to run due to age and cost of core components.
M3 - fast saloon car, and pretty much as good as fast saloons get. As above with running costs.
335i - as above, but trading performance and interest for reliability, cost of running and a better appointed more modern cabin.
Nice low miles, high spec 996 with option to renew the OPC warranty which I guess is shortly to run out...
2003 PORSCHE 911 2dr Targa
Private Seller
39,750 miles, Immaculate condition with full Porsche service history. PCM2 with satellite navigation Bose premium sound system with CD changer Installed Dension Gateway 500 with iPhone/iPod adapter, USB and Bluetooth. Play music from your iPhone, bluetooth device or USB hard disk and make hands free calls from your phone, all via the PCM2 comms unit. Digital climate control Parking sensors Heated electric seats Opening rear window and folding rear seats providing a suprising amount of luggage space. Metallic arctic silver and full black leather interior. This car has alway been covered under Porsche warranty so it has been serviced strictly in accordance with stipulated intervals/mileage by Porsche with the stamped service book. BUY WITH TOTAL CONFIDENCE. I AM SELLING THIS WITH A BRAND NEW PORSCHE WARRANTY AS A £1500 OPTION ON TOP OF THE AGREED SELLING PRICE, WHICH I WILL ARRANGE ONCE A DEPOSIT IS PAID. To get this warranty Porsche carry out a 100+ point check. This is as good as buying from a Porsche centre, but a lot cheaper!. £19,950 Optional warranty.
Starting to look a bit dated now (especially inside), but still a huge amount of car for the money if you buy a good one!
2003 PORSCHE 911 2dr Targa
Private Seller
39,750 miles, Immaculate condition with full Porsche service history. PCM2 with satellite navigation Bose premium sound system with CD changer Installed Dension Gateway 500 with iPhone/iPod adapter, USB and Bluetooth. Play music from your iPhone, bluetooth device or USB hard disk and make hands free calls from your phone, all via the PCM2 comms unit. Digital climate control Parking sensors Heated electric seats Opening rear window and folding rear seats providing a suprising amount of luggage space. Metallic arctic silver and full black leather interior. This car has alway been covered under Porsche warranty so it has been serviced strictly in accordance with stipulated intervals/mileage by Porsche with the stamped service book. BUY WITH TOTAL CONFIDENCE. I AM SELLING THIS WITH A BRAND NEW PORSCHE WARRANTY AS A £1500 OPTION ON TOP OF THE AGREED SELLING PRICE, WHICH I WILL ARRANGE ONCE A DEPOSIT IS PAID. To get this warranty Porsche carry out a 100+ point check. This is as good as buying from a Porsche centre, but a lot cheaper!. £19,950 Optional warranty.
Starting to look a bit dated now (especially inside), but still a huge amount of car for the money if you buy a good one!
Whats your budget? You could get a decent M3 for 15k, yet I think you'd need to spend 20k minimum to get a similar age/milage 996. Both are beginning to look a little dated in my eyes, 996 will be better on depreciation though. Not sure on the prices of the 335, but for me it would probably be the one to go for. It's another generation on, more toys, newer, lower milage and probably cheaper to run.
Why don't you go for the 996 now, be the cool Dad, enjoy owning a 911 for a year or two. Then sell up as it shouldn't have lost too much value, then go for the M3 as there prices should have dropped a bit, and you 'win-win'
Or go for an RS6 as they are a steal at the mo!!
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2523979.htm
Or go for an RS6 as they are a steal at the mo!!
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2523979.htm
When I was looking for my current car I looked at the E46 M3's which look like very good value for circa £12k but then saw the 996's were dropping towards £13-14k
A few weeks of looking at 996's and I'd decided that for the slightly better reliability and minor changes a 3.6 was the one to go for pushing the budget to £20-21k, but then found a good value CSL so went for that.
with regards to depreciation I think the 996, E46 M3 and 335 will all devalue a bit more yet.
335 just because it's a fairly new car and not an M3
996 will IMHO will continue to devalue as the 997's become more affordable
E46 M3 like the 996 will I suspect continue to devalue as the E9x become more affordable although there's still quite a gap between a good e46 and e9x M3.
A few weeks of looking at 996's and I'd decided that for the slightly better reliability and minor changes a 3.6 was the one to go for pushing the budget to £20-21k, but then found a good value CSL so went for that.
with regards to depreciation I think the 996, E46 M3 and 335 will all devalue a bit more yet.
335 just because it's a fairly new car and not an M3
996 will IMHO will continue to devalue as the 997's become more affordable
E46 M3 like the 996 will I suspect continue to devalue as the E9x become more affordable although there's still quite a gap between a good e46 and e9x M3.
Fox- said:
pilchardthecat said:
335i engine is all mid range. Fine if you like the accessibility of power and all that, but don't expect it to be fun.
Can you explain this a bit more?The power curve is quite revealing - look at how much the vertical axis (power) changes between, say 3000 and 5000 rpm, versus how much it changes between 5000 rpm and the red line.
Compare and contrast with what happens to the e46 M3 above 5k rpm - you're still only two thirds of the way there, and it has plenty left to give you a big fat top end kick. This shape is still true even if you bring it's red line down to 6,500 or whatever the 335i is.
Edited by pilchardthecat on Tuesday 22 February 20:17
If you want a 911 (and I'm sure that you do), don't cock about.
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2489234.htm
Get a proper one.
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2489234.htm
Get a proper one.
Agree with what's been said about the 335i. The power delivery really tails off and whilst it's a lovely car the engine doesn't do it for me. Compare it to the M3 which rises to a fantastic crescendo and is one of a kind. Dare I say it, but i'd rather have the "d" than the "i"!
The ride on the run flats in the 335i is also appalling and be aware of buying any which is out of warranty. My mate and his neighbour with exactly the same 335i's have clocked up about 15k in repair bills between the 2 cars which have fortunately all been met by BMW so far. These repairs have consisted of new turbos on one of the cars. I know you also focus on the horror stories, but my mate has got to know some of the staff at this BMW dealership very well and reports are this is not an uncommon problem. Add 21mpg to the mix and it's not a great deal. Comparing this to another mates 8 year old M3 which has got treble the mileage, cost 4 times less to buy and has only cost him a pair of new rear tyres in 12 months. The old shape M3 also feels much bigger internally than the 335i but don't know if this is backed up by the figures.
The ride on the run flats in the 335i is also appalling and be aware of buying any which is out of warranty. My mate and his neighbour with exactly the same 335i's have clocked up about 15k in repair bills between the 2 cars which have fortunately all been met by BMW so far. These repairs have consisted of new turbos on one of the cars. I know you also focus on the horror stories, but my mate has got to know some of the staff at this BMW dealership very well and reports are this is not an uncommon problem. Add 21mpg to the mix and it's not a great deal. Comparing this to another mates 8 year old M3 which has got treble the mileage, cost 4 times less to buy and has only cost him a pair of new rear tyres in 12 months. The old shape M3 also feels much bigger internally than the 335i but don't know if this is backed up by the figures.
Even though I pretty much hate the 996 911 out of that lust it would be the one id choose.
The M3 is a great car but they just seem to be so common now and always seem to be driven by our young Asian friends.
The 335i has a wonderful powerplant but the car just looks big heavy and just a bit boring.
A 911 is well a 911 - arguably the finest sports car ever (and that's coming from a TVR owner).
It's a nice choice to have though and which ever way you went I'm sure you'd get a great car.
The M3 is a great car but they just seem to be so common now and always seem to be driven by our young Asian friends.
The 335i has a wonderful powerplant but the car just looks big heavy and just a bit boring.
A 911 is well a 911 - arguably the finest sports car ever (and that's coming from a TVR owner).
It's a nice choice to have though and which ever way you went I'm sure you'd get a great car.
pilchardthecat said:
put your foot down at 3,000 rpm and you surge forward to 5,000 rpm in a most impressive way. Bags of available usable power in the middle. When you get to 5,000 rpm you think "1,500 to the red line, now it's going to get really interesting" ..... except it doesn't, because if you've got to 5k you've used up 95% of peak power and there's only 5% left. Top end is really flat, and if you're expecting more you will feel disappointed. I was.
The power curve is quite revealing - look at how much the vertical axis (power) changes between, say 3000 and 5000 rpm, versus how much it changes between 5000 rpm and the red line.
Compare and contrast with what happens to the e46 M3 above 5k rpm - you're still only two thirds of the way there, and it has plenty left to give you a big fat top end kick. This shape is still true even if you bring it's red line down to 6,500 or whatever the 335i is.
The S54 has a rev limiter that is too low compared to where it makes its peak power I found with mine, only about 100 RPM separates them. Redline gearchanges gave a marked drop off in acceleration in the next gear so it felt gutless where it was reputed to be imperious. That seems to be why a friend's Impreza with the same power (and yes less weight but that shouldn't make a huge difference at speed) but a much fuller power curve pulled neatly away at high speed. The throttle response even with sport mode off was too aggressive on the S54 on a bumpy road so you couldn't maintain a steady torque over the undulations as the suspension ran out of travel. A hopeless car on anything but smooth tarmac. And the brakes wilt after a few hard stops.The power curve is quite revealing - look at how much the vertical axis (power) changes between, say 3000 and 5000 rpm, versus how much it changes between 5000 rpm and the red line.
Compare and contrast with what happens to the e46 M3 above 5k rpm - you're still only two thirds of the way there, and it has plenty left to give you a big fat top end kick. This shape is still true even if you bring it's red line down to 6,500 or whatever the 335i is.
Edited by pilchardthecat on Tuesday 22 February 20:17
Have owned a 996 C4S, a Z4M (admittedly not an M3) and currently a 330i (admittedly not a 335i)!
What would I buy again in today's environment? The 330i, Z4M, 996 C4S - in that order.
I had loved Porsches since I was young, the C4S was my first and the conclusion of a long, long search - yet was probably one of the most disappointing cars (look and attention gained aside) I have owned - sold it within 6 months (and yes they do still depreciate)
What would I buy again in today's environment? The 330i, Z4M, 996 C4S - in that order.
I had loved Porsches since I was young, the C4S was my first and the conclusion of a long, long search - yet was probably one of the most disappointing cars (look and attention gained aside) I have owned - sold it within 6 months (and yes they do still depreciate)
pilchardthecat said:
put your foot down at 3,000 rpm and you surge forward to 5,000 rpm in a most impressive way. Bags of available usable power in the middle. When you get to 5,000 rpm you think "1,500 to the red line, now it's going to get really interesting" ..... except it doesn't, because if you've got to 5k you've used up 95% of peak power and there's only 5% left. Top end is really flat, and if you're expecting more you will feel disappointed. I was.
So what about if you compared it with the 330i? It's 30bhp down on power - but is it more fun to drive or does it feel gutless in comparison?Fox- said:
So what about if you compared it with the 330i? It's 30bhp down on power - but is it more fun to drive or does it feel gutless in comparison?
I would have a 330i over a 335i. Power delivery is important to me. Spend some of the cash saved on an aftermarket mechanical LSD and you've got a much better driver's car.john banks said:
The S54 has a rev limiter that is too low compared to where it makes its peak power I found with mine, only about 100 RPM separates them. Redline gearchanges gave a marked drop off in acceleration in the next gear so it felt gutless where it was reputed to be imperious. That seems to be why a friend's Impreza with the same power (and yes less weight but that shouldn't make a huge difference at speed) but a much fuller power curve pulled neatly away at high speed. The throttle response even with sport mode off was too aggressive on the S54 on a bumpy road so you couldn't maintain a steady torque over the undulations as the suspension ran out of travel. A hopeless car on anything but smooth tarmac. And the brakes wilt after a few hard stops.
I think you need to work on your gear changes 
A flat top end on a forced induction car tuned for midrange is easier to drive fast, because more of the power is available lower in the rev range - it's the old area-under-the-curve argument. At no point did i say the 335i wasn't fast (my original comment was "don't expect it to be fun"). I like a power delivery that keeps on rising to the red line, and a kick in the back at the top. The other downside to the easy-access forced induction power delivery is that the more available the power is, the more often you use it, and so the quicker you become used to it. If the OP is one of those people who finds himself browsing the classifieds 2 months after getting a new car, he had best stay away from the 335i. Fast and fun are not the same thing.
The M3 brakes are fine for the road, but yes they will fade on the track. Your other statement about how it's "hopeless on anything but smooth tarmac" i struggle to comprehend.
pilchardthecat said:
I would have a 330i over a 335i. Power delivery is important to me. Spend some of the cash saved on an aftermarket mechanical LSD and you've got a much better driver's car.
Have you driven the 272bhp 330i? How did you rate its performance. Is it as quick as the 5.9 seconds to 60 would suggest? In the real world how far behind a 335i is it?
Thanks for the opinions folks. I didnt post a budget but I can spend up to £16000 depending on how its financed.
I still fancy the 996, sadly droping the kids off at school means I will have to compete with a 458 Italia, numerous Bentleys, a GT3RS, couple of Maseratis (that's why my budget ain't so high sadly). There is some very serious metal (and CRP) arriving at that school.
Must admit, the boringness comments about the 335 do concern me, as does the ride. If I have an 8/10ths car with a bad ride then thats really the worst of both worlds. However, since my last post I have found a nice M3CS, lowish milage, not too old and within budget (and a manual) and I am seriously considering that now.
I guess whichever way I go I wont be too disappointed.
I still fancy the 996, sadly droping the kids off at school means I will have to compete with a 458 Italia, numerous Bentleys, a GT3RS, couple of Maseratis (that's why my budget ain't so high sadly). There is some very serious metal (and CRP) arriving at that school.
Must admit, the boringness comments about the 335 do concern me, as does the ride. If I have an 8/10ths car with a bad ride then thats really the worst of both worlds. However, since my last post I have found a nice M3CS, lowish milage, not too old and within budget (and a manual) and I am seriously considering that now.
I guess whichever way I go I wont be too disappointed.
Fox- said:
Very interesting Have you driven the 272bhp 330i? How did you rate its performance. Is it as quick as the 5.9 seconds to 60 would suggest? In the real world how far behind a 335i is it?
I hadnt thought of that I must admit, I would be sticking a quaif in the 335 if I buy one. I agree about power delivery, its all very well having a fast car but if it feels slow his could still be a route. Oh hell, thats the trouble with t'inernet, too much information. Have you driven the 272bhp 330i? How did you rate its performance. Is it as quick as the 5.9 seconds to 60 would suggest? In the real world how far behind a 335i is it?Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff