335i vs E46 M3 vs 996

[XM5ER]

adycav said:

If you want a 911 (and I'm sure that you do), don't cock about.

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2489234.htm

Get a proper one.

You are evil and must be destroyed.

[john banks]

pilchardthecat said:

I think you need to work on your gear changes

A flat top end on a forced induction car tuned for midrange is easier to drive fast, because more of the power is available lower in the rev range - it's the old area-under-the-curve argument. At no point did i say the 335i wasn't fast (my original comment was "don't expect it to be fun"). I like a power delivery that keeps on rising to the red line, and a kick in the back at the top. The other downside to the easy-access forced induction power delivery is that the more available the power is, the more often you use it, and so the quicker you become used to it. If the OP is one of those people who finds himself browsing the classifieds 2 months after getting a new car, he had best stay away from the 335i. Fast and fun are not the same thing.

The M3 brakes are fine for the road, but yes they will fade on the track. Your other statement about how it's "hopeless on anything but smooth tarmac" i struggle to comprehend.

Have you owned one and driven it hard on a bumpy B-road? If so, you must have been on 18s rather than my 19s which were pretty but horrific as the tyres just wouldn't stay on the tarmac. I never tried one on 18s.

My E46 M3 brakes complained in enthusiastic road use. The discs, pads and fluid were like new, there was no lip on the discs and the pads were hardly worn when I got it at 7000 miles. The brakes stopped well a few times, then pad material started to deposit on the discs causing vibration under braking until you let it cool down. My example wasn't the only one. Again question how hard you've actually driven an M3? No other car on the roads around here has felt so badly braked compared to its acceleration after a few hard stops.

How could I change gear any better on the S54 other than at 8000 RPM? Have you noticed that when you change gear with a drop to 75% of the engine speed before you change gear that the S54 has 93% of its peak power? The 335i can go beyond its peak power so that when you change gear (ideally at about 6750 RPM on that plot if changing between gears with the same 75% RPM after change as above) you drop back into the next gear at about the same power = no 7% drop in power through the gearchange.

[pilchardthecat]

john banks said:

Have you owned one and driven it hard on a bumpy B-road? If so, you must have been on 18s rather than my 19s which were pretty but horrific as the tyres just wouldn't stay on the tarmac. I never tried one on 18s.

My E46 M3 brakes complained in enthusiastic road use. The discs, pads and fluid were like new, there was no lip on the discs and the pads were hardly worn when I got it at 7000 miles. The brakes stopped well a few times, then pad material started to deposit on the discs causing vibration under braking until you let it cool down. My example wasn't the only one. Again question how hard you've actually driven an M3? No other car on the roads around here has felt so badly braked compared to its acceleration after a few hard stops.

How could I change gear any better on the S54 other than at 8000 RPM? Have you noticed that when you change gear with a drop to 75% of the engine speed before you change gear that the S54 has 93% of its peak power? The 335i can go beyond its peak power so that when you change gear (ideally at about 6750 RPM on that plot if changing between gears with the same 75% RPM after change as above) you drop back into the next gear at about the same power = no 7% drop in power through the gearchange.

Yes I've driven an e46 fast on bumpy B roads, and I have a Z4M which is "even worse" on bumpy roads than the e46, and it hustles along fine, especially if you stick to the OEM wheels and don't put 19" rims on it (this definitely explains your tyre contact issues IMO).

The brakes are rumbly and lose feel when they get warm and yes this is a widely accepted weakness in the cars but I haven't found it to be anwhere near as bad as you say on the road, though on a track i wouldn't be happy. Quite frankly if you are driving that fast on the road to really hurt the brakes you probably aren't going to have a license that long!

The drop in power from gear to gear is one of the best things about a well sorted normally aspirated engine - it means you can feel the power build to a top end kick and crescendo of revs in 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th.... rather that a flat constant acceleration you get in something like the 335i, or (dar i say it) a big diesel like the 335d - easier to drive fast, but dull as dishwater and not half as rewarding for the driver.

[pilchardthecat]

XM5ER said:

Fox- said:

Very interesting Have you driven the 272bhp 330i? How did you rate its performance. Is it as quick as the 5.9 seconds to 60 would suggest? In the real world how far behind a 335i is it?

I hadnt thought of that I must admit, I would be sticking a quaif in the 335 if I buy one. I agree about power delivery, its all very well having a fast car but if it feels slow his could still be a route. Oh hell, thats the trouble with t'inernet, too much information.

I have. Personally I think it's the best 3 series (other than the M3), and the one I'd have.

Not that it's necessarily a consideration, but the 335i will eat as much fuel as the e46 M3 (21-25mpg) and nowhere near the 30 that BMW claim.... but the 330i will be giving you 30 mpg, high 30s on a run. It is surprisingly economical for what it is.

[gizlaroc]

pilchardthecat said:

I have. Personally I think it's the best 3 series (other than the M3), and the one I'd have.

Not that it's necessarily a consideration, but the 335i will eat as much fuel as the e46 M3 (21-25mpg) and nowhere near the 30 that BMW claim.... but the 330i will be giving you 30 mpg, high 30s on a run. It is surprisingly economical for what it is.

Agreed.

I loved my 335i at the time, but after spending 2 days in a 330i I decided to sell it and buy another M3.

It is all on/off power, no sense of reward at all, it is a Autobahn mile muncher, albeit a very fast Autobahn mile muncher, but no real sense of that you have ever done anything.

I got 26mpg from mine average, the 330i I had for a couple of days gave me 38mog and 498 miles from a tank which I thought was amazing. That was all long runs though, sure it drops a lot using it as your proper car, but bet you would still see 30+ and many big diesels only do that.

M3 is still a blinder and still feels very special, but it is attracting the wrong attention now, that's why I sold mine, I got pulled over so many times in the last 6 months, and I have only ever been pulled over 3 times in 15 years previous to that. A lot of idiots in the E46 now that ruin it for others.

996 is great, but I couldn't live with that interior, thought it looked dated when it came out, and age has done nothing to help, it looks like a 15 year old car when sat inside.

M3 CS? As long as it is not too much more than a standard M3 could be a good choice I guess.

Use finance and buy a CSL, will be the cheapest off all over 3 years, even paying the interest on the loan.
I sold mine for £32,000 3 years ago, and that car would still be worth £27000 now, mate bought a standard M3 at the same time for £34,000 (it was newer) and is struggling to get £16,000 for it.

[andye30m3]

gizlaroc said:

Use finance and buy a CSL, will be the cheapest off all over 3 years, even paying the interest on the loan.

I really really hope your right, as thats exactly what I've done.

[Porkie]

I've got an E46 M3 and a 996... and I wouldn't suggest either. I'd definately be looking at getting a newer 335i or a M3CSL (depreciation free motoring)

[adycav]

XM5ER said:

adycav said:

If you want a 911 (and I'm sure that you do), don't cock about.

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2489234.htm

Get a proper one.

You are evil and must be destroyed.

The same thing happened to me.

I had a similar 'what car' a while ago - 135i vs 996 - and some bright spark suggested a 993.

Then you start looking at them in the classifieds and realise that, despite being a little over budget for a nice one, they aren't losing any money so make sense when man-maths is applied.

Then you pop into a Porsche specialist to look at a 996 because they are cheaper and comfortably in budget, but they have a 993 there and it makes the 996 look bloated and feel mass market.

Then you go home and look at more 993s on the internet and read the PH Porsche forum and you think - "there's no harm in trying one, I probably won't like it as everyone says that they feel old-fashioned and slow".

So you go and have a look at one, and the vendor starts it up,and you think "that sounds rather good, why don't modern cars sound like that?"

Then you go for a test drive, and 30 minutes later you're marvelling at the feel, the noise, the sense of occasion, and the smell. It's under your skin and you want one.


But don't let me sway you in any way...

[XM5ER]

adycav said:

The same thing happened to me.

I had a similar 'what car' a while ago - 135i vs 996 - and some bright spark suggested a 993.

Then you start looking at them in the classifieds and realise that, despite being a little over budget for a nice one, they aren't losing any money so make sense when man-maths is applied.

Then you pop into a Porsche specialist to look at a 996 because they are cheaper and comfortably in budget, but they have a 993 there and it makes the 996 look bloated and feel mass market.

Then you go home and look at more 993s on the internet and read the PH Porsche forum and you think - "there's no harm in trying one, I probably won't like it as everyone says that they feel old-fashioned and slow".

So you go and have a look at one, and the vendor starts it up,and you think "that sounds rather good, why don't modern cars sound like that?"

Then you go for a test drive, and 30 minutes later you're marvelling at the feel, the noise, the sense of occasion, and the smell. It's under your skin and you want one.


But don't let me sway you in any way...

Utter bd!