Push-Pull technique
Discussion
CraigyMC I had quite a lot of fun going from road to track and quickly reverted to rotational. Credit to my instructors who managed to have fun with me as I kept talking myself out of my road method 
I don't push to the limit on the road (however have owned some tail happy BMWs...) but as mentioned in a thread during the snow I am partial to playing on the snow in the yard at work. At least I know I can manage snow etc with a degree of competence
IMO everyone should be ale to do both. Many of the people I see struggling to steer are actually pushing first which gives far too little input and leads to lots of little shuffles of the wheel to achieve a turn.
I don't push to the limit on the road (however have owned some tail happy BMWs...) but as mentioned in a thread during the snow I am partial to playing on the snow in the yard at work. At least I know I can manage snow etc with a degree of competence
IMO everyone should be ale to do both. Many of the people I see struggling to steer are actually pushing first which gives far too little input and leads to lots of little shuffles of the wheel to achieve a turn.
Edited by Six Fiend on Sunday 20th March 07:20
Six Fiend said:
Many of the people I see struggling to steer are actually pushing first which gives far too little input and leads to lots of little shuffles of the wheel to achieve a turn.
Absolutely - I see that quite a lot too (I'm fairly sure the same people would struggle no matter which technique they were using!).I've no problem with anyone using any technique as long as they are in control
C
If the steering wheel airbag was to activate, crossed hands or using the palming method could throw your arms at high speed into your face. A punch from Mike Tyson could cause less injury.
From that perspective, push-pull is safer. Keeping the central airbag housing of the wheel uncovered.
That is what our instructors inform our learner drivers.
Further, as of late last year, the DSA issued a statement to the effect that crossing hands whilst steering would not be marked down as a minor driving error if there is no loss in control. This is section 12 of the DL25, the form the DSA uses to assess driving tests. We also inform our learner drivers of that.
From that perspective, push-pull is safer. Keeping the central airbag housing of the wheel uncovered.
That is what our instructors inform our learner drivers.
Further, as of late last year, the DSA issued a statement to the effect that crossing hands whilst steering would not be marked down as a minor driving error if there is no loss in control. This is section 12 of the DL25, the form the DSA uses to assess driving tests. We also inform our learner drivers of that.
In my ignorance I've never heard of this, is it the same as 'feeding the wheel'? In which case my uncle taught me this and I use it in certain situations howver my instructor did not and told me it was a waste of time. I am not particlarly skilled at it and find I only use it when cornering very sharply.
ETA- wrong profile again! Mrs OwenK
ETA- wrong profile again! Mrs OwenK
http://www.peterboroughadvancedmotorists.co.uk/ind...
ull-push-steering-by-chris-gilbert&catid=38:driving-advice&Itemid=65
ull-push-steering-by-chris-gilbert&catid=38:driving-advice&Itemid=65The above link in clickable format.
I think one of the basic problems is confusion over exactly WHAT is being discussed.
Pull-push steering is often incorrectly termed "Shuffle steering". If you've seen someone who's bad at the technique use it, you'll see why. I could go on to use 1,000 words to describe how it should be done, but I'd probably miss bits out and no-one would read it. Suffice to say, it should be a smooth organic steering input with loads of control over the wheel. If you sit along side someone using it properly, you probably wouldn't notice that they're doing it unless they're making large steering inputs - I.e. low speed manouvering.
The advantages are:
You always have two hands on the wheel, and can always steer (or steer more) in in either direction in an instant.
You can rapidly apply large amounts of steering lock.
You can accurately apply that steering input.
Once the steering has been input, you can easily and safely adjust it, mid bend, because your arms are in a "strong" position vs purely rotaitonal steering.
On cars with heavy steering, you don't get tired as quickly.
You are less likely to get "confused" with repeated and rapid steering inputs- Your hands keep doing the same thing regardless of the steering wheels degree of rotation.
Your arms stay clear of Airbag deployment. I've made this small as although it's oft touted as a reason, it's a poor one IMO. Scare tactics to persuade newbies of it's uses.
The disadvantages are:
It's perhaps not as 'fast' as rotational steering (I'd argue that it's increased accuracy balances this out)
Your hands move relative to the straight ahead of the steering wheel, meaning it is possible (but hard) to forget where "dead ahead" is.
Everyone thinks you're a
for doing it.
Firstly, I know many experienced track and racing drivers scoff at Pull push. Would they kindly butt out. It's a road discipline, first and foremost. On track, you always know the severity of the upcoming bend, and track and racing cars are set up very differently from road cars, with smaller steering wheels and much quicker racks. Most often, on track, 180 deg of lock in either driection is more than enough, and this can be achieved with any steering method you care to use, and without moving either hand relative to the wheel.
On road, things are more complex. Despite our best efforts, an unsighted bend can tighten unexpectedly, there can be a oncoming vehicle or any range of unpredictable hazards. We must ALWAYS be in a position ot add/remove lock accurately and safely.
This is where pull-push comes into it's own. Even for rapid application of opposite lock, it is better to have a hand ready around the "three" or "nine" O'clock position, for maximum leverage.
To consider Pull pushes benefits, you really have to consider it Vs. Fixed input or rotational steering. Fixed input can leave you "crossed up" i.e arms crossed over, steering wheel "upside down"... I'm sure we've all found ourself there, desparately urging another little push from our thumbs to turn the wheel another 5 degrees... The weakness of this position is obvious. You've limited yourself to 180 deg of lock. You are in a weak physical position (it's the start point for a Jiu Jitsu throw!) and cannot apply more lock. You are also inaccurate in any movements you do make, and unless you're triple jointed, you no longer have a proper grip of the wheel as your palms are coming free from the rim.
For smaller steering inputs fixed input steering has another weakness: In holding both hands on the wheel and using both arms together, especially driving hard, the tendancy is to lock your arms, then your shoulders. You end up not steering with your biceps and triceps which are both strong and accurate, but with your torso, twisting at the hips and shoulders. You also attach your bodyweight firmly to the steering wheel, maning that it becomes a huge pendulum on ths steering mechanism. Correct seating position is vital to get fixed input steering right, to limit the chances of this happeneing. It's also really fatiguing over a long high speed drive. Any advantages of fixed input steering go out of the window as soon as you begin to steer like this. It is horribly inaccurate, you over-do your steering inputs and are unable to respond to feedback from the wheel. The Pull pusher by contrast remains in fingertip control of the car, relaxed but ready, and not draining energy using major core muscles to steer the car.
In my opinion, were we all driving E-types and 3.5 Jags, none of this would be under discussion. 'Modern' power assistance lets you get away with pretty much anything, and you feel fully in control because you can make effective steering inputs from a weak body position. Fine, if it works, it works, but as I said before, I think anybody who considers themself a keep ROAD driver should understand and be able to use pull-push, even if they choose not to almost all the time. To dismiss it out of hand is to not fully understand it.
I think one of the basic problems is confusion over exactly WHAT is being discussed.
Pull-push steering is often incorrectly termed "Shuffle steering". If you've seen someone who's bad at the technique use it, you'll see why. I could go on to use 1,000 words to describe how it should be done, but I'd probably miss bits out and no-one would read it. Suffice to say, it should be a smooth organic steering input with loads of control over the wheel. If you sit along side someone using it properly, you probably wouldn't notice that they're doing it unless they're making large steering inputs - I.e. low speed manouvering.
The advantages are:
You always have two hands on the wheel, and can always steer (or steer more) in in either direction in an instant.
You can rapidly apply large amounts of steering lock.
You can accurately apply that steering input.
Once the steering has been input, you can easily and safely adjust it, mid bend, because your arms are in a "strong" position vs purely rotaitonal steering.
On cars with heavy steering, you don't get tired as quickly.
You are less likely to get "confused" with repeated and rapid steering inputs- Your hands keep doing the same thing regardless of the steering wheels degree of rotation.
Your arms stay clear of Airbag deployment. I've made this small as although it's oft touted as a reason, it's a poor one IMO. Scare tactics to persuade newbies of it's uses.
The disadvantages are:
It's perhaps not as 'fast' as rotational steering (I'd argue that it's increased accuracy balances this out)
Your hands move relative to the straight ahead of the steering wheel, meaning it is possible (but hard) to forget where "dead ahead" is.
Everyone thinks you're a
for doing it.Firstly, I know many experienced track and racing drivers scoff at Pull push. Would they kindly butt out. It's a road discipline, first and foremost. On track, you always know the severity of the upcoming bend, and track and racing cars are set up very differently from road cars, with smaller steering wheels and much quicker racks. Most often, on track, 180 deg of lock in either driection is more than enough, and this can be achieved with any steering method you care to use, and without moving either hand relative to the wheel.
On road, things are more complex. Despite our best efforts, an unsighted bend can tighten unexpectedly, there can be a oncoming vehicle or any range of unpredictable hazards. We must ALWAYS be in a position ot add/remove lock accurately and safely.
This is where pull-push comes into it's own. Even for rapid application of opposite lock, it is better to have a hand ready around the "three" or "nine" O'clock position, for maximum leverage.
To consider Pull pushes benefits, you really have to consider it Vs. Fixed input or rotational steering. Fixed input can leave you "crossed up" i.e arms crossed over, steering wheel "upside down"... I'm sure we've all found ourself there, desparately urging another little push from our thumbs to turn the wheel another 5 degrees... The weakness of this position is obvious. You've limited yourself to 180 deg of lock. You are in a weak physical position (it's the start point for a Jiu Jitsu throw!) and cannot apply more lock. You are also inaccurate in any movements you do make, and unless you're triple jointed, you no longer have a proper grip of the wheel as your palms are coming free from the rim.
For smaller steering inputs fixed input steering has another weakness: In holding both hands on the wheel and using both arms together, especially driving hard, the tendancy is to lock your arms, then your shoulders. You end up not steering with your biceps and triceps which are both strong and accurate, but with your torso, twisting at the hips and shoulders. You also attach your bodyweight firmly to the steering wheel, maning that it becomes a huge pendulum on ths steering mechanism. Correct seating position is vital to get fixed input steering right, to limit the chances of this happeneing. It's also really fatiguing over a long high speed drive. Any advantages of fixed input steering go out of the window as soon as you begin to steer like this. It is horribly inaccurate, you over-do your steering inputs and are unable to respond to feedback from the wheel. The Pull pusher by contrast remains in fingertip control of the car, relaxed but ready, and not draining energy using major core muscles to steer the car.
In my opinion, were we all driving E-types and 3.5 Jags, none of this would be under discussion. 'Modern' power assistance lets you get away with pretty much anything, and you feel fully in control because you can make effective steering inputs from a weak body position. Fine, if it works, it works, but as I said before, I think anybody who considers themself a keep ROAD driver should understand and be able to use pull-push, even if they choose not to almost all the time. To dismiss it out of hand is to not fully understand it.
Edited by WeirdNeville on Sunday 20th March 11:15
When I learnt last April, I had to use this method, and it was a bh to get used to as for the 5 weeks previously to me being 17 id had my car, and been practicing on my dad's drive (its quite long and a few bends etc. Just using one hand.
Didnt take long to get used to this method but resented it then, and still do. Only really used it once or twice since passing my test. When I had a mate with me who's learning but failed his theory a couple of times just to wind him up and start driving like a learner should.
h to get used to as for the 5 weeks previously to me being 17 id had my car, and been practicing on my dad's drive (its quite long and a few bends etc. Just using one hand. Didnt take long to get used to this method but resented it then, and still do. Only really used it once or twice since passing my test. When I had a mate with me who's learning but failed his theory a couple of times just to wind him up and start driving like a learner should.
LeeThr said:
When I learnt last April, I had to use this method, and it was a bh to get used to as for the 5 weeks previously to me being 17 id had my car, and been practicing on my dad's drive (its quite long and a few bends etc. Just using one hand.
Didnt take long to get used to this method but resented it then, and still do. Only really used it once or twice since passing my test. When I had a mate with me who's learning but failed his theory a couple of times just to wind him up and start driving like a learner should.
which will be all well and good until you have the inevitable RTC while perfecting your gangsta lean hopefully you won't kill yourself or your passengers/ other road users and hopefully you won't have to meet me or my brother in any of our professional capacities... h to get used to as for the 5 weeks previously to me being 17 id had my car, and been practicing on my dad's drive (its quite long and a few bends etc. Just using one hand. Didnt take long to get used to this method but resented it then, and still do. Only really used it once or twice since passing my test. When I had a mate with me who's learning but failed his theory a couple of times just to wind him up and start driving like a learner should.
mph1977 said:
which will be all well and good until you have the inevitable RTC while perfecting your gangsta lean hopefully you won't kill yourself or your passengers/ other road users and hopefully you won't have to meet me or my brother in any of our professional capacities...
It's not a 'gangsta lean' at all. I still keep my right hand at the same place as I would using Push-Pull, but I just find it more comfy to keep my left on the gear stick. However If i am entering a bend which I think i'll need more lock than I can manage with just one hand, then I will choose the appropiate gear and get both hands back on the wheel. As for the winding my mate up, thats only been at 10-15mph on an absolutly dead road out of the way with nothing about.
LeeThr said:
It's not a 'gangsta lean' at all. I still keep my right hand at the same place as I would using Push-Pull, but I just find it more comfy to keep my left on the gear stick. However If i am entering a bend which I think i'll need more lock than I can manage with just one hand, then I will choose the appropiate gear and get both hands back on the wheel.
As for the winding my mate up, thats only been at 10-15mph on an absolutly dead road out of the way with nothing about.
Will your gear stick fall off if you won't hold it? As for the winding my mate up, thats only been at 10-15mph on an absolutly dead road out of the way with nothing about.
You may hit a pothole and you won't be able to hold on to the wheel with one hand only...
rottie102 said:
Will your gear stick fall off if you won't hold it?
You may hit a pothole and you won't be able to hold on to the wheel with one hand only...
nevermind the pothole what aobut those bends which do funny things with camber or tightening up as you go round them ... hopefully he won't 'fall ' into a drainage dyke from one of those ... You may hit a pothole and you won't be able to hold on to the wheel with one hand only...
Edited by mph1977 on Sunday 20th March 20:58
It is dangerous.. try driving a RWD with P6000's on when the back is coming round to say hi using push-Pull.. you will be in a ditch. kinda reminds me of this douch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUC-4cCOyqw
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