RE: PH Investigates: Ginetta's Road Cars
Discussion
lnt said:
Thanks to all PHs for their comments, I follow the comments but don't always comment. I think one of the main difference with Ginetta is that we never want to produce more than 300 cars a year TOTAL including our race cars. The G40 is a brilliant car to drive road and race - I've had a go in both......
The idea of the G40 road car is going back to the days when you could drive your race car to a circuit. The G40 road car has the same safety cage as the 24 hour class winning car..... Not many competitors can do that for £30k ish. It is a track focused car for enthusiast, but you can get all your kit in the boot. I love it.
Thanks for all your support
Lawrence
It's brilliant to see the cars on the circuit and if you are able to commercially justify the delivery of road cars that would be superb.The idea of the G40 road car is going back to the days when you could drive your race car to a circuit. The G40 road car has the same safety cage as the 24 hour class winning car..... Not many competitors can do that for £30k ish. It is a track focused car for enthusiast, but you can get all your kit in the boot. I love it.
Thanks for all your support
Lawrence
I genuinely think the F400 is an excellent car. Sadly, I didn't gell with it when it was a Farbio and have bought something else now.
But I can't wait to see more on the road.I don't think there is a single person on PH who doesn't want this to continue growing and succeeding.
mitch78 said:
You're right. If they dropped it to ~£50k they would be the new TVR, unable to provide reliable cars for the money and bankrupt in no time.
I have owned a T350 and a currently own a Sagaris. BOTH totally and utterly reliable with not a hassle with either. People who dont know TVR and have never owned a TVR know sweet F all. Sorry but its a fact!Just gets a bit borring after a while when early TVR's bring the later TVR brand down and slated by peoppe who think they know, but actaully dont!
justyn
Podie said:
Disagree - the simple shapes become timeless. I love the classic lines of the G40 and G50.
Let's hope Ginetta succeed where TVR and Marcos failed. Exciting times.
Commercially it is not a question of that you love them. That is not enough.Let's hope Ginetta succeed where TVR and Marcos failed. Exciting times.
Do you actually bought a BRAND NEW G40 or G50 or what ever else of this company or will you do it in the very near future for REAL? And I repeat: A BRAND NEW one.
All this is what counts to a car manufacturer, what ever size they are.
And I am sorry to say: for this the current Ginettas are not a stunner. I would not even consider a brand new one. I trust their engineering competences but just because of the shape I am not excited.
Look at the new STRATOS attempt recently. A very large number of people got excited MOSTLY by the shape and not because of the Ferrari underpinings. They were asking 12 times the money of a Ginetta and be sure they sell them. It is all about emotions.
Where are the emotions at a current Ginetta ???????????????
In what time did they sell 40 to 50 cars for a far, far lower price!!!
All down to flair, shape, emotional values. That is what you sell with a sports car.
Not timeless appearance. A garbe can has timeless appearance.
vintageracer01 said:
Ginettas seem to be great cars technically but do they have to appear like a kit car?
The only way small companies can differentiate themselves from competition is with some extraordinary design. Or at least some sophiticated or pretty one.
The only pretty Ginetta I know of is the G3. I do not know who came up with it but it is well proportioned and has a beautiful form.
I have to say the current Ginetta designs look too amateurish and much too conservative.
Cool shapes do not cost much more. One just need more time to think them up and resolve them.
Get customers excited to want one. Great engineering others also can do but the emotions are transported via appearence. Sportcars have to be alluring, outrages or attractive in order to be remembered and stick to mind. It enhances value for money tremendously if I get an exciting shape included in the engineering package.
Just as some examples, this where exciting designs:
Well, I know, it is down to taste of cause, but the current Ginettas do not have anything special and exciting.
Edited by vintageracer01 on Monday 21st March 20:40
I work within five minutes of LNT and drive past every other day, might try to get a sneaky peek!
lnt said:
Always loved the Sagaris, Peter had a real flair for design, the other two are prototypes that will never see the light of day but look fantastic. as a car designer I await your first vehicle, do you have any inspiration for Ginetta?
Yep i coudnt agree more , but then i would be hey!To me the Sagaris still looks like a concept car that actually TVR dared to produce and im lucky enough to drive today!
How may cars can say they sound like this, my pride and joy;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwDhnF3y5IY
Justyn
I saw these cars at the Autosport show and thought they looked well proportioned, well designed and exactly what I want.
I don't think the photos on here look anyway near as good as the cars do in person.
I don't think an MX5 or MR2 is anyway near this league and if you took one of those tin boxes and tried to turn it into a proper performance car to compete with the Ginettas, it would probably cost you £30k and a lot of months in the garage and on track developing it. Its costing me a lot to do it to a Lotus and that was already light weight with a stiff chassis and awesome ride and point to point handling.
I think we should be behind Ginetta, a proper pistonheads car.
I don't think the photos on here look anyway near as good as the cars do in person.
I don't think an MX5 or MR2 is anyway near this league and if you took one of those tin boxes and tried to turn it into a proper performance car to compete with the Ginettas, it would probably cost you £30k and a lot of months in the garage and on track developing it. Its costing me a lot to do it to a Lotus and that was already light weight with a stiff chassis and awesome ride and point to point handling.
I think we should be behind Ginetta, a proper pistonheads car.
vintageracer01 said:
The only pretty Ginetta I know of is the G3. I do not know who came up with it but it is well proportioned and has a beautiful form.
The G3 ????? And you don't know who came up with it? Oh dear.
You never heard of Ivor Walklett? You need to read some Ginetta history!
The G3 was made in 1959, here it is in 1960 next to a Austin 7 for size!
Hardly a problem to tell which is which.
Perhaps you really meant the G4, as you've said well-proportioned and beautiful form?
That fits. Just like Marilyn Monroe, all curves!
Here, some 50 years after it was designed, is a G4 (still built today by DARE) next to a Mini (for size again!)
And another couple to show those gorgeous curves.
extremekiter said:
mitch78 said:
You're right. If they dropped it to ~£50k they would be the new TVR, unable to provide reliable cars for the money and bankrupt in no time.
I have owned a T350 and a currently own a Sagaris. BOTH totally and utterly reliable with not a hassle with either. People who dont know TVR and have never owned a TVR know sweet F all. Sorry but its a fact!Just gets a bit borring after a while when early TVR's bring the later TVR brand down and slated by peoppe who think they know, but actaully dont!
justyn
dandarez said:
vintageracer01 said:
The only pretty Ginetta I know of is the G3. I do not know who came up with it but it is well proportioned and has a beautiful form.
The G3 ????? And you don't know who came up with it? Oh dear.
You never heard of Ivor Walklett? You need to read some Ginetta history!
The G3 was made in 1959, here it is in 1960 next to a Austin 7 for size!
Hardly a problem to tell which is which.
Perhaps you really meant the G4, as you've said well-proportioned and beautiful form?
That fits. Just like Marilyn Monroe, all curves!
Here, some 50 years after it was designed, is a G4 (still built today by DARE) next to a Mini (for size again!)
And another couple to show those gorgeous curves.
G27, G33, or G50 for me
.Repeatedly with announcements from specialist sportscar makers (not just this one, all of them ) they have unrealistic expectations of the price their vehicles can command, unless they only want to sell a handful each year.
Some of the car companies need to wake up to the new financial climate and tailor their products to what the public are able to purchase in economic numbers.
Some of the car companies need to wake up to the new financial climate and tailor their products to what the public are able to purchase in economic numbers.
RTH said:
Repeatedly with announcements from specialist sportscar makers (not just this one, all of them ) they have unrealistic expectations of the price their vehicles can command, unless they only want to sell a handful each year.
Some of the car companies need to wake up to the new financial climate and tailor their products to what the public are able to purchase in economic numbers.
Sorry, but reading this just says you have no concept of how much it costs to develop and produce a car.Some of the car companies need to wake up to the new financial climate and tailor their products to what the public are able to purchase in economic numbers.
Well, yes and no. It was only a few years ago I was looking at buying a turn key GT40 kit.
This would have been a GT40, painted and finished to the colour of my choice with a powerful 400bhp SBC in it for £50K.
In other words a one off special built to order.
Now any company producing even small bulk compared with a kit builder prepared to built a one-of kit to the customers spec would have significant bulk savings.
I think this kit builder was producing 3-4 a year compared with maybe 300 a year for the likes of Ginetta.
This would have been a GT40, painted and finished to the colour of my choice with a powerful 400bhp SBC in it for £50K.
In other words a one off special built to order.
Now any company producing even small bulk compared with a kit builder prepared to built a one-of kit to the customers spec would have significant bulk savings.
I think this kit builder was producing 3-4 a year compared with maybe 300 a year for the likes of Ginetta.
lnt said:
Always loved the Safaris, Peter had a real flair for design, the other two are prototypes that will never see the light of day but look fantastic. as a car designer I await your first vehicle, do you have any inspiration for Ginetta?
As an automotive designer myself, I know there's only little people can do with a road car design which is based on a race car. I don't know what design stage you are at now with the G40 road car. And what retractions you have. But if there are still some 'room' for improvement on the both the exterior and interior, then, I would suggest first and most important of all is NOT to down grade any mechanical parts of the original race car. You can always add comfort/ergonomics to it, but not in exchange. So no matter what happens in the end, It should be the same race car with just enough 'comfort'. It should be more like the relation between road version of Ford RS200 and its Rally version, not like the road version of Impreza STI and its WRC version which is totally different.
In terms of the exterior design ie. proportion, shapes, surfaces, lines, specially design details which all make a professionally designed car different from an average kit car or low volume production car (I know Ginetta wants to be a low volume manufacture, but there's nothing to stop you and your company to make this G40 road car's design more refined than people would expect from a low volume auto manufacture). In fact, the exterior evolution from G50 to G55 is the perfect example of what I'm trying to explain. Keep in mind that you are designing a little super car here (well at least it'll have a track performance better than most so-called super cars). So like people said regarding to Safaris and G55 which may not be 100% aerodynamically better than the cars they are based on. But, the changes make them 100% super cars, which catches people's hearts more than anything.
As for the interior, just keep it British. I know it might sound strange. But, British sports car interior design used to be one of the best: not trying too hard, keep it simple, using the right material at the right place, keep in mind it's a race car underneath, and finally mind the details finishes. Think more of 'old' Zonda, less of the new Nobel M15 (I know they are very different cars from the G40. But I hope you can get some inspiration ie. how to incorporate tradition with the latest racing inspired materials)
Good luck on the design. I think the G40 road car will be the 4-pot TVR we've all been waiting for a long time.
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