RE: Government Decision On Lotus Money Due Soon
Discussion
grahamw48 said:
Yes, it's the old 'Great' Britain neutered by the EU again.
I voted 'NO'.
(Awaits comments from the those brainwashed in schools up and down the country for the past 30 years
).
Well, aside from the fact that this has I voted 'NO'.
(Awaits comments from the those brainwashed in schools up and down the country for the past 30 years
).1) Nothing to do with the EU; and
2) Britain hasn't been "Great" for decades
You've made some really good points
JJ
extremekiter said:
They really are a bunch of DICKS arent they!!!!!! I 
hate this stupid petty goverment!!
A proper thoroughbred manufacturer English (sort of) brand that fk it lets not support hey.....they may end up like TVR...but then the goverment couldnt give two sts bout them too either!!!
Makes me so fking angry!!!!!!!!!!
Screw Norfolk hey, who gives a toss about that lot. We may have silly accents but we are real people who care for our county! Pity these bunch of knobs couldnt! If they ask for a tax increase from myself....well ya can get STUFFED!!!!!
Justyn
I have to say I totally disagree with you - why should the government be handing out money to businesses like this? hate this stupid petty goverment!!A proper thoroughbred manufacturer English (sort of) brand that f
k it lets not support hey.....they may end up like TVR...but then the goverment couldnt give two sts bout them too either!!!Makes me so f
king angry!!!!!!!!!! Screw Norfolk hey, who gives a toss about that lot. We may have silly accents but we are real people who care for our county! Pity these bunch of knobs couldnt! If they ask for a tax increase from myself....well ya can get STUFFED!!!!!
Justyn
Edited by extremekiter on Tuesday 12th April 21:11
Edited by extremekiter on Tuesday 12th April 21:12
I like HMV...but I won't cry when it disappears because the government didn't bail it out. Business is business and money should never be handed to companies. If the government want to help they should cut tax rates instead.
Lotus by all accounts have diversified their model range vastly for no apparent reason beyond wanting to. Having tax payers now subsidise the company to make their future MORE viable seems a bit odd, especially since their parent company is fairly wealthy.
Had this been the same old Lotus struggling, then I'd say throw some cash in, but it'd be a bit of a stinker if they needed help because their new flash expensive product range wasn't selling.
Dave
Had this been the same old Lotus struggling, then I'd say throw some cash in, but it'd be a bit of a stinker if they needed help because their new flash expensive product range wasn't selling.
Dave
This Government and the ones before for that matter are not interested in any industry that involves engineering. It only invests any money in financial institutions or something that's on it's agenda / manifesto.
As I recall JLR needed money during the recession and were turned down flat as were most engineering firms. Since then JLR have received some money, but don't be fooled. This money is being investment into "Green Technology", again part of the Goverment agenda to be seen to be doing something for the environment.
Not sure why people are moaning about £30million to help a company stay in the UK with the potential benefits this gives to the UK and especially the local economy near the plant.
Okay some of the profits will go to Proton a foreign company, but the workers salaries go back into the local economy and some of the taxes back into Govermnet coffers.
I'm more bothered about the fact we're giving £3 Billion (not millions) of Tax payers money to prop up Portugal. None of that money will be directly benefiting anyone in the UK.
As I recall JLR needed money during the recession and were turned down flat as were most engineering firms. Since then JLR have received some money, but don't be fooled. This money is being investment into "Green Technology", again part of the Goverment agenda to be seen to be doing something for the environment.
Not sure why people are moaning about £30million to help a company stay in the UK with the potential benefits this gives to the UK and especially the local economy near the plant.
Okay some of the profits will go to Proton a foreign company, but the workers salaries go back into the local economy and some of the taxes back into Govermnet coffers.
I'm more bothered about the fact we're giving £3 Billion (not millions) of Tax payers money to prop up Portugal. None of that money will be directly benefiting anyone in the UK.
This Government and the ones before for that matter are not interested in any industry that involves engineering. It only invests any money in financial institutions or something that's on it's agenda / manifesto.
As I recall JLR needed money during the recession and were turned down flat as were most engineering firms. Since then JLR have received some money, but don't be fooled. This money is being investment into "Green Technology", again part of the Goverment agenda to be seen to be doing something for the environment.
Not sure why people are moaning about £30million to help a company stay in the UK with the potential benefits this gives to the UK and especially the local economy near the plant.
Okay some of the profits will go to Proton a foreign company, but the workers salaries go back into the local economy and some of the taxes back into Govermnet coffers.
I'm more bothered about the fact we're giving £3 Billion (not millions) of Tax payers money to prop up Portugal. None of that money will be directly benefiting anyone in the UK.
As I recall JLR needed money during the recession and were turned down flat as were most engineering firms. Since then JLR have received some money, but don't be fooled. This money is being investment into "Green Technology", again part of the Goverment agenda to be seen to be doing something for the environment.
Not sure why people are moaning about £30million to help a company stay in the UK with the potential benefits this gives to the UK and especially the local economy near the plant.
Okay some of the profits will go to Proton a foreign company, but the workers salaries go back into the local economy and some of the taxes back into Govermnet coffers.
I'm more bothered about the fact we're giving £3 Billion (not millions) of Tax payers money to prop up Portugal. None of that money will be directly benefiting anyone in the UK.
jazzyjeff said:
grahamw48 said:
Yes, it's the old 'Great' Britain neutered by the EU again.
I voted 'NO'.
(Awaits comments from the those brainwashed in schools up and down the country for the past 30 years).
Well, aside from the fact that this has I voted 'NO'.
(Awaits comments from the those brainwashed in schools up and down the country for the past 30 years
).1) Nothing to do with the EU; and
2) Britain hasn't been "Great" for decades
You've made some really good points
JJ
Pity you're wrong on both points.
grahamw48 said:
Why are we proposing to give money to a Malaysian company ?
Give it to Noble or Ginetta.
If the employees of Lotus then have to relocate...so be it.
Same could be said for giving Money to an Indian company (Jaguar Land Rover) An America company (GM) and a German Company (Bentley). They all got money, so what's the problem.Give it to Noble or Ginetta.
If the employees of Lotus then have to relocate...so be it.
It's not a Lotus thing, its a Regional thing. No company in Norfolk who applies for the grant got accepted. I think there were only two companies in the Eastern Region that were accepted.
stanza said:
This Government and the ones before for that matter are not interested in any industry that involves engineering. It only invests any money in financial institutions or something that's on it's agenda / manifesto.
As I recall JLR needed money during the recession and were turned down flat as were most engineering firms. Since then JLR have received some money, but don't be fooled. This money is being investment into "Green Technology", again part of the Goverment agenda to be seen to be doing something for the environment.
Not sure why people are moaning about £30million to help a company stay in the UK with the potential benefits this gives to the UK and especially the local economy near the plant.
Okay some of the profits will go to Proton a foreign company, but the workers salaries go back into the local economy and some of the taxes back into Govermnet coffers.
I'm more bothered about the fact we're giving £3 Billion (not millions) of Tax payers money to prop up Portugal. None of that money will be directly benefiting anyone in the UK.
I think the fact that Lotus have entered IndyCar (and soon as an "engine manufacturer"?!), F1, GT4 and are apparently looking at Le Mans is probably not helpful to Lotus' case. IndyCar for example at the moment is a little dead and with EJ Viso and Sato managing to hit just about anything it really doesn't look good! All that money that Lotus has spent probably is about £30m or even more...As I recall JLR needed money during the recession and were turned down flat as were most engineering firms. Since then JLR have received some money, but don't be fooled. This money is being investment into "Green Technology", again part of the Goverment agenda to be seen to be doing something for the environment.
Not sure why people are moaning about £30million to help a company stay in the UK with the potential benefits this gives to the UK and especially the local economy near the plant.
Okay some of the profits will go to Proton a foreign company, but the workers salaries go back into the local economy and some of the taxes back into Govermnet coffers.
I'm more bothered about the fact we're giving £3 Billion (not millions) of Tax payers money to prop up Portugal. None of that money will be directly benefiting anyone in the UK.
On the point of Lotus becoming a lump-maker for IndyCar, surely that's a loss-making exercise in itself what with Chevrolet and Honda already having much more experience with the kind of engine needed for things like this? I know Penske have gone for Chevrolet and Ganassi are probably going to follow suit (they already use them in NASCAR) meaning the teams which can realistically get championships and have the money are likely to be spending elsewhere!
The Crack Fox said:
As much as I love Lotus, I am sick of the Government being bribed by Proton to keep production here, if they want to up sticks and move, fine, but PLEASE don't chuck any taxpayers money at the business. If it can't/won't fund itself then tough. Businesses should sink or swim on their own, we don't have enough money in the (tax) pot for this nonsense.
/tough love.
You do understand this is a loan don't you? It's not free cash./tough love.
PabloTeK said:
stanza said:
This Government and the ones before for that matter are not interested in any industry that involves engineering. It only invests any money in financial institutions or something that's on it's agenda / manifesto.
As I recall JLR needed money during the recession and were turned down flat as were most engineering firms. Since then JLR have received some money, but don't be fooled. This money is being investment into "Green Technology", again part of the Goverment agenda to be seen to be doing something for the environment.
Not sure why people are moaning about £30million to help a company stay in the UK with the potential benefits this gives to the UK and especially the local economy near the plant.
Okay some of the profits will go to Proton a foreign company, but the workers salaries go back into the local economy and some of the taxes back into Govermnet coffers.
I'm more bothered about the fact we're giving £3 Billion (not millions) of Tax payers money to prop up Portugal. None of that money will be directly benefiting anyone in the UK.
I think the fact that Lotus have entered IndyCar (and soon as an "engine manufacturer"?!), F1, GT4 and are apparently looking at Le Mans is probably not helpful to Lotus' case. IndyCar for example at the moment is a little dead and with EJ Viso and Sato managing to hit just about anything it really doesn't look good! All that money that Lotus has spent probably is about £30m or even more...As I recall JLR needed money during the recession and were turned down flat as were most engineering firms. Since then JLR have received some money, but don't be fooled. This money is being investment into "Green Technology", again part of the Goverment agenda to be seen to be doing something for the environment.
Not sure why people are moaning about £30million to help a company stay in the UK with the potential benefits this gives to the UK and especially the local economy near the plant.
Okay some of the profits will go to Proton a foreign company, but the workers salaries go back into the local economy and some of the taxes back into Govermnet coffers.
I'm more bothered about the fact we're giving £3 Billion (not millions) of Tax payers money to prop up Portugal. None of that money will be directly benefiting anyone in the UK.
On the point of Lotus becoming a lump-maker for IndyCar, surely that's a loss-making exercise in itself what with Chevrolet and Honda already having much more experience with the kind of engine needed for things like this? I know Penske have gone for Chevrolet and Ganassi are probably going to follow suit (they already use them in NASCAR) meaning the teams which can realistically get championships and have the money are likely to be spending elsewhere!
PabloTeK said:
I think the fact that Lotus have entered IndyCar (and soon as an "engine manufacturer"?!), F1, GT4 and are apparently looking at Le Mans
They are at Le Mans, this year with the 'GT2' (GTE Pro) Evora. Debuts at LM test day, first race scheduled to be at Spa 1000km on 7 May. A stern test against awesome opposition, but I really wish them well.i know nothing of big business, it's funding or how it all works but i do have an opinion (however uninformed it may be) & this is it.
keeping manufacturing in this country should surely be important, not just for the workers but for all the benefits it brings to the economy as already pointed out so many times (workers salery, recuperating tax, money diverted to related businesses such as suppliers etc)
however, lotus looks like a company lost. no-one can tell me that their plans for future expansion are not brave at best, if not potentially reckless. previous governments had their fingers burnt by the automotive industry (rover) & i'm not sure anyone with an ounce of business sense looks at what lotus are trying to acheive & would invest their own hard earned cash into the scheme. would you bet your money on them suceeding?
yes it's a loan, but it ceases to be so if they fail to pay it back. like i said i don't understand how all this big business works, i only own a small limited company but it would appear to me that it can't be that difference to how i would look at something if someone came to me looking for an investment in a small business? you look at the risks, the potential benifits & figure out if it's worth a punt. i think it says a lot that someone out there thinks lotus isn't worth the risk.
it's a shame, i'm an ex lotus owner myself, & i hope they come through all this as a successful viable business but i've got to say it doesn't look likely.
keeping manufacturing in this country should surely be important, not just for the workers but for all the benefits it brings to the economy as already pointed out so many times (workers salery, recuperating tax, money diverted to related businesses such as suppliers etc)
however, lotus looks like a company lost. no-one can tell me that their plans for future expansion are not brave at best, if not potentially reckless. previous governments had their fingers burnt by the automotive industry (rover) & i'm not sure anyone with an ounce of business sense looks at what lotus are trying to acheive & would invest their own hard earned cash into the scheme. would you bet your money on them suceeding?
yes it's a loan, but it ceases to be so if they fail to pay it back. like i said i don't understand how all this big business works, i only own a small limited company but it would appear to me that it can't be that difference to how i would look at something if someone came to me looking for an investment in a small business? you look at the risks, the potential benifits & figure out if it's worth a punt. i think it says a lot that someone out there thinks lotus isn't worth the risk.
it's a shame, i'm an ex lotus owner myself, & i hope they come through all this as a successful viable business but i've got to say it doesn't look likely.
thewheelman said:
This is something the government should help fund, Lotus needs to stay here. Sorry if my argument is weak, & my knowledge of politics isn't good. But letting another brand go is not good news.
I think if we are honest they are much better things the government could be funding. Its no surprise they have said no.They are Malysian owned and as I understand it - they will sign a syndicated financing deal with six lenders this month;
CIMB Group Holdings Bhd
Malayan Banking Bhd
Oversea-Chinese Banking Corp
EON Capital Bhd
Exim Ban
Affin Holdings Bhd
When issuing government money / loans for projects the issuer (a quango of some description, usually along the lines of a regional development agency) an ITT (invitation to tender) will be released to organisations via either business networks or general advertising targeted at sectors through different specialised press materials. Then all the companies interested in receiving funding put forward their tender which goes to a procurement panel (obviously of varying size dependant on the amount / importance) and that panel has to decide which tender(s) are the best in terms of value, sustainability, realism etc etc. To cut a long story short, if your tender isn't strong / competitive enough you will not receive the money.
In this instance if this is a loan then don't forget it'll be hugely detremental to many many other organisations if the money is not re-paid.
I agree that the government's large decisions can be hugely frustrating (abolishing Regional Development Agencies is a particularly shocking decision when you consider an independent report proved that they generate more funds for the country than they spend) - however, on ground level, the people responsible for ensuring such funds are correctly funded do do a very good job. Inevitably errors have been made which the press will always jump on however thousands of peoples lives and businesses have been enhanced by the projects, business loans etc funded for by either the taxpayer or through EU funds (returned to us).
In this instance if this is a loan then don't forget it'll be hugely detremental to many many other organisations if the money is not re-paid.
I agree that the government's large decisions can be hugely frustrating (abolishing Regional Development Agencies is a particularly shocking decision when you consider an independent report proved that they generate more funds for the country than they spend) - however, on ground level, the people responsible for ensuring such funds are correctly funded do do a very good job. Inevitably errors have been made which the press will always jump on however thousands of peoples lives and businesses have been enhanced by the projects, business loans etc funded for by either the taxpayer or through EU funds (returned to us).
To all those who say don't invest in Lotus, just write down all names of Garman Car Companies, and then all the British ones. We don't have any, because all governments since the war have had no interest in technology, manufacturing and engineering, because the City was going to create unprecendented wealth for all the country. One of the largest commodity brokerage companies in the world is going public. This will give each of the 284 'partners' +£100M each. For what. Not wealth creation, just for buying and selling. That's £28B sucked out of the world economy, and re-distributed to a lucky 284. Caplitalism rules ok.
Lost soul said:
GKP said:
I've never understood why the Government doesn't get behind automotive industry in the UK anymore,
But it is , Jaguar ,Bently, GM as it says in the article However, I am surprised Lotus haven't at least been acknowledged by the government. Automotive companies from all over the world come to Lotus, sometimes even in secret, to make their cars handle and perform more efficiently, and have done for decades. Lotus is a world leader in engineering cars that are ripe for the modern world. The fact that they turn out desirable sports cars, albeit in low volumes, shouldn't detract from that.
I wonder though, given the fact that the Lotus-Renault F1 car has already started making an impact on the podium this season, and the interest from foreign banks, that the government loan wasn't so much a fallback as one of several options.
I wouldn't be surprised if further Lotus and Renault collaborations were to follow, culminating in the French buying it from the Malaysians, to be honest. The Nissan 370Z engine would be perfect for the Elan, the GTR engine would work well in the Esprit, Elite and Eterne, and the Elise could be powered with a RenaultSport Megane engine. In return, Renaults and Nissans get lighter, more efficient and go round corners better. Everyone's a winner.
Also, given the strong Nissan presence in the UK and the peerless reputation of the Sunderland factory, I can't see production being outsourced either.
robinessex said:
To all those who say don't invest in Lotus, just write down all names of Garman Car Companies, and then all the British ones. We don't have any, because all governments since the war have had no interest in technology, manufacturing and engineering, because the City was going to create unprecendented wealth for all the country.
A strange side effect of winning the second world war was that we were left with old factories which soon struggled to keep up with the new ones of Germany and Japan. Then we had the oil crisis in the 70s, Thatcher determined to keep inflation down in the 80s (resulting in massive unemployment) then the massive recession in 90, now we have 7% unemployment (over 20% for 16 - 24s) and national debt of over 500 billion, its a miracle how we are all dressed, warm, fed and driving around in nice cars!robinessex said:
all governments since the war have had no interest in technology, manufacturing and engineering, because the City was going to create unprecendented wealth for all the country.
I'm not sure the history exactly bears you out on this one. Unless the war you're thinking about is that around the Falklands?robinessex said:
One of the largest commodity brokerage companies in the world is going public. This will give each of the 284 'partners' +£100M each. For what. Not wealth creation, just for buying and selling. That's £28B sucked out of the world economy, and re-distributed to a lucky 284. Caplitalism rules ok.
That money isn't "sucked out of the world economy", it has simply been re-tagged as "belonging" to different people. It will move from one bank account to another, and nothing much else will change.I take it you think Tesco shares shouldn't be worth anything, either, as they just buy and sell?
At the end of the day, there are very few people who know the actual workings of this funding, and even less who know both the Lotus application and the Government criteria. It would only be with that knowledge that the decision could be understood.
What is clear is that there was a limited pot of money available, there was an emphasis on geographical areas which did not include Norfolk, and there must have been a large number of other organisations similarly unsuccessful.
What is clear is that there was a limited pot of money available, there was an emphasis on geographical areas which did not include Norfolk, and there must have been a large number of other organisations similarly unsuccessful.
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