Has it now become a nightmare to sell a private car...?
Discussion
I didn't realise it had gone through the insurance, but the car is obviously clear anyway. As you say, it's not a Cat D repair.
That said, repairing a broken wing mirror or repairing a scratched bumper are common repairs, I agree. But these will be relatively cheap to fix. A £4,000 repair is hardly a minor detail, so as a buyer I would be wondering why this information wasn't given to me.
As for buyer beware, again I agree with this. But major points, and a £4k repair is a major point, should be specified.
The whole issue with the repairs isn't the fact that repairs have been carried out, it's the point at which the buyer finds out. Put it this way, if I came to see the car and then discovered this £4k repair, then there's a very strong chance that I wouldn't buy the car. If the seller told me this before I came to see the car then it wouldn't put me off, as long as the repairs were done properly (from BMW, and at that cost I'm that they were) I wouldn't have any problem.
That said, repairing a broken wing mirror or repairing a scratched bumper are common repairs, I agree. But these will be relatively cheap to fix. A £4,000 repair is hardly a minor detail, so as a buyer I would be wondering why this information wasn't given to me.
As for buyer beware, again I agree with this. But major points, and a £4k repair is a major point, should be specified.
The whole issue with the repairs isn't the fact that repairs have been carried out, it's the point at which the buyer finds out. Put it this way, if I came to see the car and then discovered this £4k repair, then there's a very strong chance that I wouldn't buy the car. If the seller told me this before I came to see the car then it wouldn't put me off, as long as the repairs were done properly (from BMW, and at that cost I'm that they were) I wouldn't have any problem.
I, like many people, bought my car second-hand. Has it been in an accident? Well it's HPI clear but it could easily have been, I don't know.
So if I advertise it, what should I put, that it could have been in an accident but as far as I know it hasn't, just for disclosure obviously?
Mind you, it picked up a bad stone chip recently, might have to re-spray the wing. Should I mention that in an advert if I do it?
What if it were a dent in the wing, disclose it after repairing?
A dent and a gash in the bumper?
At what level should someone disclose a repaired accident?
I looked at probably 100+ car adverts before buying the car I did, none mentioned any accident damage. I can't believe non of those cars had ever had a repair.
Point is, if it's not been a write off and it's been repaired properly, why would anyone mention it? Fact is, they don't. It's a risk you take buying a used car, mitigated as much as you can by looking carefully at the car (one I looked at had the boot lid tight up against one side, huge gap the other, and the drivers door was rubbing on the trailing edge of the front wing. I walked away).
So if I advertise it, what should I put, that it could have been in an accident but as far as I know it hasn't, just for disclosure obviously?
Mind you, it picked up a bad stone chip recently, might have to re-spray the wing. Should I mention that in an advert if I do it?
What if it were a dent in the wing, disclose it after repairing?
A dent and a gash in the bumper?
At what level should someone disclose a repaired accident?
I looked at probably 100+ car adverts before buying the car I did, none mentioned any accident damage. I can't believe non of those cars had ever had a repair.
Point is, if it's not been a write off and it's been repaired properly, why would anyone mention it? Fact is, they don't. It's a risk you take buying a used car, mitigated as much as you can by looking carefully at the car (one I looked at had the boot lid tight up against one side, huge gap the other, and the drivers door was rubbing on the trailing edge of the front wing. I walked away).
so the consensus of the discussion is that I should declare it on the advert i.e car has had a bumper bonnet after low impact bump?
Now if this is how it should be I dont have a problem with it, but I would like to know how many others would do the same?
The trouble is PH regulars are, I would imagine more tolerant and understanding that it doensn't make a blind bit of difference to the car apart from its now like a showroom fresh front end.
I would be more concerned about a knackered engine than a new bonnet tbh
However not everyone is a PH'er and like it has been stated most of the great unwashed will instantly disregard the advert or offer me £2k innit bro.
Opinions,
Now if this is how it should be I dont have a problem with it, but I would like to know how many others would do the same?
The trouble is PH regulars are, I would imagine more tolerant and understanding that it doensn't make a blind bit of difference to the car apart from its now like a showroom fresh front end.
I would be more concerned about a knackered engine than a new bonnet tbh
However not everyone is a PH'er and like it has been stated most of the great unwashed will instantly disregard the advert or offer me £2k innit bro.
Opinions,
You have two choices- put it in the advert, or don't disclose it at all. I certainly wouldn't do the second option, personally.
My opinion is that you could provide a brief description of the repair, state that it was a minor bump requiring a new bumper, wing and bonnet. These were repaired by BMW using OEM parts, with receipts to prove. Therefore (as another poster pointed out) the bonnet is free of stone chips, and all of the parts have a lifetime guarantee.
If you write it correctly it could even be seen as a positive!
My opinion is that you could provide a brief description of the repair, state that it was a minor bump requiring a new bumper, wing and bonnet. These were repaired by BMW using OEM parts, with receipts to prove. Therefore (as another poster pointed out) the bonnet is free of stone chips, and all of the parts have a lifetime guarantee.
If you write it correctly it could even be seen as a positive!
I would like to add that I am one of these typical car mad buffoons that buy a car, proceed to spend thousands on it to make it pristine as I dont want to drive something that isnt 100% and certainly dont want my little girl being transported in anything unsound.
Then once its almost concours and Ive spent the purchase price again on fixing every little squeak, mark and issue...I sell it for a massive loss (usually £1000's) and start the whole process again.
Why I don't know...
Example MR2 turbo...paid £2500....spent £8000...forged engine. T4 turbo etc new Gbox (didnt need it just thought it would be better)sold for £2200... I am a Nutter.
Then once its almost concours and Ive spent the purchase price again on fixing every little squeak, mark and issue...I sell it for a massive loss (usually £1000's) and start the whole process again.
Why I don't know...
Example MR2 turbo...paid £2500....spent £8000...forged engine. T4 turbo etc new Gbox (didnt need it just thought it would be better)sold for £2200... I am a Nutter.
If you put in your ad it's had a crash, even a small one, you will get people to view but you just know when it comes to the haggling they're going to say - "i'll give you xxx less as it's been crashed" you know this and it's inevitable, regardless of the approved BMW invoices etc.
Or you could do what i said before and don't declare it - if there's no evidence and repair was proper why should the buyer be none the wiser? No i'm not Mike Brewer before you ask...
My uncle runs a main VW dealer they had a brand new Polo as a courtesy car and it was hit side on. They repaired it properly and put it on forecourt - it didn't have a sticker saying "this car has been crashed" on it. As said if it drives, looks and feels straight and there is no blots on the hpi or any other record don't declare it.
Or you could do what i said before and don't declare it - if there's no evidence and repair was proper why should the buyer be none the wiser? No i'm not Mike Brewer before you ask...
My uncle runs a main VW dealer they had a brand new Polo as a courtesy car and it was hit side on. They repaired it properly and put it on forecourt - it didn't have a sticker saying "this car has been crashed" on it. As said if it drives, looks and feels straight and there is no blots on the hpi or any other record don't declare it.
It's a 12 year old car! How many other 12 year old cars have had bumps and prangs and crashes repaired. And how many do you see advertised as such?
If someone asks the question then answer honestly, but other than that it's been repaired properly, it's probably better than the next 12 year old BMW.
If someone asks the question then answer honestly, but other than that it's been repaired properly, it's probably better than the next 12 year old BMW.
The advert and your comments in the early part of this thread comes across as dishonest imo.
- You whinge that Cat D cars are selling while yours is attracting timewasters. For all intents and purposes yours is a CAT D/C so why emphasise the difference?
- You valued yours post crash between £2800 and £5000, but after pleading with the loss adjuster to spend near 75% of the value of the car on repairs, you're advertising at a price that doesn't honestly reflect its value.
- You were advised to address the vanos unit and MAF on the car, but you somehow fail to mention this in your advert instead claiming that the car is flawless.
- You say you are selling because your Mrs doesn't like the car - she things it's old etc. The real reason she doesn't like it is because she cant drive it and she crashed it.
My view is that it is best not to say something (in and ad) than say something that can later be questioned as dishonest.
The car should sell itself without the fancy claims. It is a low mileage M5 with service history etc.
Just my view
- You whinge that Cat D cars are selling while yours is attracting timewasters. For all intents and purposes yours is a CAT D/C so why emphasise the difference?
- You valued yours post crash between £2800 and £5000, but after pleading with the loss adjuster to spend near 75% of the value of the car on repairs, you're advertising at a price that doesn't honestly reflect its value.
- You were advised to address the vanos unit and MAF on the car, but you somehow fail to mention this in your advert instead claiming that the car is flawless.
- You say you are selling because your Mrs doesn't like the car - she things it's old etc. The real reason she doesn't like it is because she cant drive it and she crashed it.
My view is that it is best not to say something (in and ad) than say something that can later be questioned as dishonest.
The car should sell itself without the fancy claims. It is a low mileage M5 with service history etc.
Just my view
1974nc said:
This is what I feared regarding the stupid offers etc. Ive already had enough of those already without stating an insurance aproved repair.
Ironically if the bump had happened before my ownership then I would be none the wiser and we wouldnt be having this conversation.
You don't have to disclose everything about the car in your ad - just don't make claims that YOU KNOW are stretching the truth.Ironically if the bump had happened before my ownership then I would be none the wiser and we wouldnt be having this conversation.
I've sold several cars in the past, and while I haven't always disclosed all the cars faults, I don't hide them from a buyer if/when asked. It's the buyer's responsibility to do all the necessary checks before purchase, but lying or withholding information when asked could come back to bite you post sale.
1974nc said:
so the consensus of the discussion is that I should declare it on the advert i.e car has had a bumper bonnet after low impact bump?
Now if this is how it should be I dont have a problem with it, but I would like to know how many others would do the same?
The trouble is PH regulars are, I would imagine more tolerant and understanding that it doensn't make a blind bit of difference to the car apart from its now like a showroom fresh front end.
I would be more concerned about a knackered engine than a new bonnet tbh
However not everyone is a PH'er and like it has been stated most of the great unwashed will instantly disregard the advert or offer me £2k innit bro.
Opinions,
To be honest, providing it had been repaired by an approved specialist (which it has in this case) then I wouldn't have any issue whatsoever buying a car that had accident damaged repaired - my issue would be if it was Cat C/D.Now if this is how it should be I dont have a problem with it, but I would like to know how many others would do the same?
The trouble is PH regulars are, I would imagine more tolerant and understanding that it doensn't make a blind bit of difference to the car apart from its now like a showroom fresh front end.
I would be more concerned about a knackered engine than a new bonnet tbh
However not everyone is a PH'er and like it has been stated most of the great unwashed will instantly disregard the advert or offer me £2k innit bro.
Opinions,
I would have an issue if I asked you had it been an accident and you said no and subsquently I found it had - but typically I don't ask this question as most people wouldn't tell the truth anyhow.
Ignoring all this, when I first saw your link to your ad what put me off was the fact on the first pic the panels colour didn't look to match across the entire length of the car (the doors looked a different shade to the rear panel near the boot) - I thought then had the car had paintwork.
Probably a trick of the light and had I wanted a M5 I would have asked you the question regarding that to see if it was a light thing or paintwork issue.
For those saying disclose, I'm afraid I suspect 99% of people wouldn't if it was their car - I suspect quite a few of us are driving around in cars which have had some work done but we never realise...
The car has been properly repaired by a BMW main dealer and is not Cat D, so I would have been surprised if the seller included details of the accident in his advert*. Life is not like that. Equally, I suspect that if pictures of the car post-accident were posted, the damage would not be extensive. The £4k cost was mostly made up from parts; the labour came to £680. That is not a lot of work at main dealer rates, so the £4,000 bill probably only says that M5 parts are very expensive.
For me, non-disclosure of a properly done accident repair like this is covered by 'caveat emptor'. If the car was recorded Cat D, then non-disclosure of that status is dishonest. A great many 10 year old performance cars have had an accident. "They've all had paint," is said for a reason.
Your M5 is desireable to many on account of its immense performance. It also frightens them. They like and want satnav, but they need reassurance more. Rather than highlight what the car hasn't got spec wise on account of its age, you need to reassure them that it is not about to throw up a problem any minute and eat their wallet! My view, anyway...
I have had success selling cars on Autotrader, though of course not without meeting some unusual people. A man called DeWayne telephoned and asked me if I would drive the car I was selling (a Nissan 200SX) to a pub in Stoke on Trent so he could have a look at it with his mates. He said he would like to come and see it himself, but he couldn't because he was out drinking with his friends. He then asked me "how much does the sunroof weigh?" I considered this an unusual question and I really wasn't sure, so I told him it was sold...
*Though you can't lie and claim it hasn't been in an accident if they do ask you.
For me, non-disclosure of a properly done accident repair like this is covered by 'caveat emptor'. If the car was recorded Cat D, then non-disclosure of that status is dishonest. A great many 10 year old performance cars have had an accident. "They've all had paint," is said for a reason.
Your M5 is desireable to many on account of its immense performance. It also frightens them. They like and want satnav, but they need reassurance more. Rather than highlight what the car hasn't got spec wise on account of its age, you need to reassure them that it is not about to throw up a problem any minute and eat their wallet! My view, anyway...
I have had success selling cars on Autotrader, though of course not without meeting some unusual people. A man called DeWayne telephoned and asked me if I would drive the car I was selling (a Nissan 200SX) to a pub in Stoke on Trent so he could have a look at it with his mates. He said he would like to come and see it himself, but he couldn't because he was out drinking with his friends. He then asked me "how much does the sunroof weigh?" I considered this an unusual question and I really wasn't sure, so I told him it was sold...
*Though you can't lie and claim it hasn't been in an accident if they do ask you.
Ved said:
The issue here isn't that the car or other cars out there have had work done on them, previous ones I've bought and sold as an example, but that you've avoided saying that in the advert. If you'd said that in the ad you wouldn't have all the other questions and change of tone in the thread.
If you drove 200 miles to buy a car that claimed in the ad the all was and has been rosy only to find out that there was a crash and a large bill you wouldn't like it one bit and would instantly wonder what else was not as advertised.
I went to look at a Hawkeye STI and there was over spray of about 100mm x 5mm above the front bumper going on to plastic that was not supposed to be painted. I immediately walked away. Does this mean that the car was two halves glued together? No. But because it was not mentioned in the advert everything else in the car was up for doubt.
I would add it to your advert and then your car will sell.
Honesty is always best, especially when a perceived deception is so easily traceable.
Right, but his car has been repaired by BMW so is a completely different kettle of fish. If you assume that because you haven't worked out that there's something wrong with the car, that there is nothing wrong with the car and the buyer has told you everything then you're very foolish!If you drove 200 miles to buy a car that claimed in the ad the all was and has been rosy only to find out that there was a crash and a large bill you wouldn't like it one bit and would instantly wonder what else was not as advertised.
I went to look at a Hawkeye STI and there was over spray of about 100mm x 5mm above the front bumper going on to plastic that was not supposed to be painted. I immediately walked away. Does this mean that the car was two halves glued together? No. But because it was not mentioned in the advert everything else in the car was up for doubt.
I would add it to your advert and then your car will sell.
Honesty is always best, especially when a perceived deception is so easily traceable.
Ari said:
1974nc said:
Ironically if the bump had happened before my ownership then I would be none the wiser and we wouldnt be having this conversation.
Exactly! It's a 12 yr old secondhand car. Don't worry about it. If someone asks, tell them, if not forget it. I would be more worried about the fact it could have been clocked (i'm not saying yours has!) but as a buyer, low mileage, older cars this is rife.
I take note of all the helpful replies and useful advice but the odd 'let him without sin cast the first stone' contributor annoys me.
The car has had a minor repair. It's not cat d c or anything. It's had both vanos done. (the one guy who viewed it said it was much quieter than the last one he had seen) I'm checking both maf outputs more for myself than any purchaser. The wheels are slightly darker but as near to the original colour as the refurber could get without going the other way.
The history is all genuine and stamped with receipts. For 7k I don't know what people expect, possibly a legally binding guarantee that nothing has gone wrong with the car or will ever do in future perhaps.
The car has had a minor repair. It's not cat d c or anything. It's had both vanos done. (the one guy who viewed it said it was much quieter than the last one he had seen) I'm checking both maf outputs more for myself than any purchaser. The wheels are slightly darker but as near to the original colour as the refurber could get without going the other way.
The history is all genuine and stamped with receipts. For 7k I don't know what people expect, possibly a legally binding guarantee that nothing has gone wrong with the car or will ever do in future perhaps.
My advice would be, get some better (and more) photos.
When I was looking it was the photos I pored over, you need some of the interior, some better brighter ones of the outside, and I agree with the comment about the wheels, maybe photographing the car in bright sunlight would make them look less dark and the car therefore less modded.
When I was looking it was the photos I pored over, you need some of the interior, some better brighter ones of the outside, and I agree with the comment about the wheels, maybe photographing the car in bright sunlight would make them look less dark and the car therefore less modded.
My advice is to keep the car and make wifey drive it , I'm sure if she has to walk everywhere she will have a sudden change of heart !
I just bought a v8 car off eBay , at about 30% less than what it should have been , the owner only got 400 quid after I paid the loan off .
People don't like to put all their wages in the tank to drive to work and back , it's quite a depressing experience and those that can afford it , can afford something better , newer etc
I just bought a v8 car off eBay , at about 30% less than what it should have been , the owner only got 400 quid after I paid the loan off .
People don't like to put all their wages in the tank to drive to work and back , it's quite a depressing experience and those that can afford it , can afford something better , newer etc
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