RE: PH Heroes: Ford Escort XR3
Discussion
Horatio said:
HoggyXR3 said:
Hi, What a brilliant write up, how I felt in 1982 & how I still feel today, as I have had my Sunburst Red 5 speeder XR3 from new, over 29 years now, must be a record.
Heres a pic of her last year on County Run..
Hope you like..
HoggyXR3
Lovely, an absolute Credit to you Hoggy..Heres a pic of her last year on County Run..
Hope you like..
HoggyXR3
At the time a few friends and I had the Mk2 RS2000s and RS1800, another richer friend bought the Motorsport development of the XR3, the RS1600i.
It was developed by Ford Motorsport over in Germany and was supposed to come out before the XR3i but because of the delays in converting it to RHD for the UK market actually came out at the same time as the SVE XR3i.
It was supposed to be the GpA and GpN car for Clubman motorsport while the rwd/4wd RS1700T ( canned in 83 ) was supposed to be the all-out GpB car
Quite a bit different than the fuel injected XR3 successor
Had the high-compression engine, solid lifters, and the head and cam were developed in conjunction with Schrick plus a twin coil AFT set up with no distributor. Was a bit lumpier than an XR3i at tickover but although it had an extra 10 bhp and revved better the gearing changes compared to the XR3i meant it wasn't really much, if any quicker.
The brake linkage was like the Mk1 Golf Gtis as well and meant the pedal had a bit of slop in plus they didn't get the bigger drums on the back like the 3i.
You got Konis standard but had to buy the rear Arb as an add-on but with that put on, the front suspension adjusted and some decent 195/50s, not as twitchy as it was standard.
Best bit about the car interior for me was the fantastic seats - nicer than the laser trim to me.
None of the Mk2 RS2s we had at that time were standard but it was quicker ( but less fun ) than another mate's Mk2 RS1800 which was the same power ( but probably had less at the wheels than the fwd RS ). Also held on well to my Mk1 1800 Gti I had later - his later S1 RST was much quicker though
Had a facelift XR3i a few years later ( was a loaner whilst my Dad waited for his company car ) but seemed much softer edged than the earlier, more angular RS1600i/XR3i
Still see a few round and about
Hi Smike, Thanks for reply & positive comments,nice pics. Nice to see more "On Topic" posts, Yes the later XR3i got much softer suspension, as it was really designed as more "family" friendly car, than the harder XR3 suspension. Problem was they were produced in the UK, who didn't, for a few years have the rust proofing equipment the German factories had so rusted away.
HoggyXR3
HoggyXR3
heebeegeetee said:
Of *course* I place the drive over aesthetics! What car enthusiast wouldn't? It's the numpties who place a poor drive over looks because they don't know any better. Everyone knows that a car that looks great but drives badly doesn't sell, and the car becomes the archetypal hairdressers car. With a car that may be well styled but drives poorly you look the 'all the gear no idea' type.
I'm astonished to read your points. Why don't you have a go at designing an appealing vehicle that will carry a family (and please don't come up with a SUV and all the false aggression contained therein). I think you might find that it is harder to come up with a competitive design that performs well and meets all current legislation is harder than you think, and you may find that legislation drives the design of the motor car rather more that you might have thought.
The hot hatch *was* a revolution at the time. You simply couldn't have been there at the time to think otherwise. Before the hot hatch, most affordable cars with sporting pretensions had live axles and many still had cart springs. The fabled sporting Escorts were nigh on identical underneath to the Cortina, ie big heavy and underpowered lump up front, four-speed gearbox, live axle, cart springs. It just so happened that sum was greater than the parts. The genuine sporting cars at the time were, 911 aside, bloody badly made and shockingly unreliable, I would suggest.
The fwd fast Fords though, weren't a lot of cop. Ford never got the hot hatch recipe right until the advent of the 5 cylinder hot Focuses, I would suggest. Back in the hot hatch period I went from a contemporary XR2 to an R5GTurbo, and christ, what a difference. There was no doubt that at the time the motoring press were doing Ford a lot of favours, 'cos their hot hatch range was leagues behind the competition, dynamically.
Back in the eighties Car magazine was quite right to produce an issue with a bevy of the smaller hot hatches on the cover with the title 'The World's First Small Supercars', because that effectively was what they were. Everything that had gone before, at whatever budget (911 aside) suddenly became very old hat indeed. And with the Golf you got a build quality that none of the genuine sports car producers, (Porsche aside, natch) could possibly hope to emulate.
I thought it was quite apparent from my posts that one of my main gripes about the dull, annodine, largely characterless cars we have to suffer these days, is directly due to EU safety legislation EG note my comment about raised bonnet lines for safety purposes. I fully appreciate the impact that nanny state EU safety regs have had on car design, just as aerodynamic efficiency drives design to a considerable degree.
If you regard the advent of hot hatches as, 'revolutionary,' that is your priviledge. I would simply argue that they were no more than evolutionary. Why? Ever heard of the Mini Cooper? Built in the 1960's- small car, pokey engine, great handling-sole difference? A boot as opposed to a hatch. Hot hatches simply re-invented the wheel, if you can excuse the pun! They took the concept of the small, deft handling car with a good turn of speed, and applied it to hatchbacks-evolution, not revolution.
In addition, you appear to have placed more emphasis on my referral to the driving experience than I intended. My perception is that the majority of people seem to be more focused on the gadgets fitted inside their vehicle, than either the driving experience, or the aesthetics. Next time a work colleague changes their car & discusses it, note how they predominantly harp on about the 'toys' on board, as opposed to any other aspect of the vehicle in question. We are a society & culture obsessed with technology, and this is reflected in contemprorary vehicles. If you turn the clock back 30+ years, there were a plethora of beautiful looking cars around on the roads, EG XJ6 Jaguar, Rover P6, Truimph Stag, Mk1 Capri etc etc. All the aforementioned cars had strong aesthetic appeal & plenty of character. Undoubtedly, build quality & reliability has improved immeasurably since the 60's/70's, however, aesthetic appeal appears to have largely evaporated. Would you honestly argue that contemporary BMW's are actually beautiful looking machines? Where is the elegance? Where is the grace? What you get now is a characterless, well screwed together machine rammed with gadgets. Many modern cars are as inspiring to behold as a glass of water, which is a rather sad state of affairs.
I'm astonished to read your points. Why don't you have a go at designing an appealing vehicle that will carry a family (and please don't come up with a SUV and all the false aggression contained therein). I think you might find that it is harder to come up with a competitive design that performs well and meets all current legislation is harder than you think, and you may find that legislation drives the design of the motor car rather more that you might have thought.
The hot hatch *was* a revolution at the time. You simply couldn't have been there at the time to think otherwise. Before the hot hatch, most affordable cars with sporting pretensions had live axles and many still had cart springs. The fabled sporting Escorts were nigh on identical underneath to the Cortina, ie big heavy and underpowered lump up front, four-speed gearbox, live axle, cart springs. It just so happened that sum was greater than the parts. The genuine sporting cars at the time were, 911 aside, bloody badly made and shockingly unreliable, I would suggest.
The fwd fast Fords though, weren't a lot of cop. Ford never got the hot hatch recipe right until the advent of the 5 cylinder hot Focuses, I would suggest. Back in the hot hatch period I went from a contemporary XR2 to an R5GTurbo, and christ, what a difference. There was no doubt that at the time the motoring press were doing Ford a lot of favours, 'cos their hot hatch range was leagues behind the competition, dynamically.
Back in the eighties Car magazine was quite right to produce an issue with a bevy of the smaller hot hatches on the cover with the title 'The World's First Small Supercars', because that effectively was what they were. Everything that had gone before, at whatever budget (911 aside) suddenly became very old hat indeed. And with the Golf you got a build quality that none of the genuine sports car producers, (Porsche aside, natch) could possibly hope to emulate.
I thought it was quite apparent from my posts that one of my main gripes about the dull, annodine, largely characterless cars we have to suffer these days, is directly due to EU safety legislation EG note my comment about raised bonnet lines for safety purposes. I fully appreciate the impact that nanny state EU safety regs have had on car design, just as aerodynamic efficiency drives design to a considerable degree.
If you regard the advent of hot hatches as, 'revolutionary,' that is your priviledge. I would simply argue that they were no more than evolutionary. Why? Ever heard of the Mini Cooper? Built in the 1960's- small car, pokey engine, great handling-sole difference? A boot as opposed to a hatch. Hot hatches simply re-invented the wheel, if you can excuse the pun! They took the concept of the small, deft handling car with a good turn of speed, and applied it to hatchbacks-evolution, not revolution.
In addition, you appear to have placed more emphasis on my referral to the driving experience than I intended. My perception is that the majority of people seem to be more focused on the gadgets fitted inside their vehicle, than either the driving experience, or the aesthetics. Next time a work colleague changes their car & discusses it, note how they predominantly harp on about the 'toys' on board, as opposed to any other aspect of the vehicle in question. We are a society & culture obsessed with technology, and this is reflected in contemprorary vehicles. If you turn the clock back 30+ years, there were a plethora of beautiful looking cars around on the roads, EG XJ6 Jaguar, Rover P6, Truimph Stag, Mk1 Capri etc etc. All the aforementioned cars had strong aesthetic appeal & plenty of character. Undoubtedly, build quality & reliability has improved immeasurably since the 60's/70's, however, aesthetic appeal appears to have largely evaporated. Would you honestly argue that contemporary BMW's are actually beautiful looking machines? Where is the elegance? Where is the grace? What you get now is a characterless, well screwed together machine rammed with gadgets. Many modern cars are as inspiring to behold as a glass of water, which is a rather sad state of affairs.
Last year whilst down the scrapyard getting a part for a skint customer, in the cars forsale section and avoiding the scrappage scheme I found a near mint A plate 5speed XR3 cabriolet in White with 60k on the clock that had been part exchanged for a cat D motor - only problems I could see were a small amount of rust on a rear arch - bought it for £600 (guy wanted 750). We serviced it and stripped and rebuilt the carb (float was seized) and welded up the tiny amount of rust - sold it for £1600 with a fresh Mot. LOvely piece of nostalgia but truly dreadful to drive by modern standards. For me it was always the golf or maestro 2.0. The guy in the article broke the golden rule of cars - never buy a childhood hero as it will never live up to your expectations.
morgrp said:
Am I right in thinking the early XR3 were built in Germany not Britain and were more rust resistant? There seems to be more early survivors than late
Hi morgrp, Yes, early XR3 up to mid 1983 were built in Germany & thoroughly rustproofed, the UK factories never had that facility until much later which is why the early XR3 have survived better, like my 5 speeder for instance.
HoggyXR3
Pedmeister said:
You need to get your quoting sorted, my friend. The Mini Cooper was a badly made, unreliable, loss-making, state-subsidised car that had no rear hatch, barely fitted four adults and didn't spawn a revolution, but was a ball of fun as well and had great sporting success nonetheless.
By the late 1980's the Mini was still much as it always was although might just have begun to show a profit.
The Golf GTi on the other hand, did spark a revolution; unlike with the Mini, 10 years after the Golf arrived practically every car manufacturer had it's own version in their catalogues.
Before the Golf, there wasn't a car on the market that could perform like it; 10 years after there were loads, and indeed VW lost their position of making the best hot hatch on the market for quite some time.
In fact, posting as I have been on an MX5 thread, I'm reminded that the hot hatch killed the sports car market almost stone dead, until Mazda showed the world how to build a sports car. The Mini Cooper never achieved anything like this.
The Mini was a great car, but unfortunately BMC and BL were never able to spark the revolution that they could have done.
Smike said:
joz8968 said:
Lovely couple of examples of the RS1600i above. I still have a guilty desire for that car - even more so than the 130bhp S1 RS Turbo!
The RS1600i had twin ign. coils IIRC? Weird.
Yep, developed by AFTThe RS1600i had twin ign. coils IIRC? Weird.
joz8968 said:
Smike said:
joz8968 said:
Lovely couple of examples of the RS1600i above. I still have a guilty desire for that car - even more so than the 130bhp S1 RS Turbo!
The RS1600i had twin ign. coils IIRC? Weird.
Yep, developed by AFTThe RS1600i had twin ign. coils IIRC? Weird.
I think a few of you are missing the point entirely. Whilst it's a given that the cars didn't have the build quality of bentley you have to look beyond that.
If you were anywhere near your late teens/early twenties at his time (which I was) then it represented a whole new view on motoring, hot hatches gave access to lads like me that had previously made mk2 escorts and sunbeams quicker, to what was in those days as near as we were ever going to get to a 'sports car'. Our group had 205gti's, XR3's and astra GTE's..all had their shortcomings, but for those few summers before work, marriage,houses,kids came along....they were absolutely bloody perfect!
btw...Hoggy...fantastic car - every credit to you
If you were anywhere near your late teens/early twenties at his time (which I was) then it represented a whole new view on motoring, hot hatches gave access to lads like me that had previously made mk2 escorts and sunbeams quicker, to what was in those days as near as we were ever going to get to a 'sports car'. Our group had 205gti's, XR3's and astra GTE's..all had their shortcomings, but for those few summers before work, marriage,houses,kids came along....they were absolutely bloody perfect!
btw...Hoggy...fantastic car - every credit to you
My uncle bought one of the first XR3i models new, on a Y plate, in Caspian Blue. I was just a kid, and it was the quickest thing I'd ever been in at the time. I loved that cool rev counter which zeroed at 5:00 (still do, actually), and the bright green LED digital clock that used to glow away to itself in a little console just above the rear view mirror.
He chopped it in for the mk4 when that came out, but to this day reckons he never quite gelled with it in the same way as he did the mk3.
He chopped it in for the mk4 when that came out, but to this day reckons he never quite gelled with it in the same way as he did the mk3.
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