RE: Porsche Panamera Pushes The (Range) Envelope
Discussion
I like the Panamera, and think this diesel version makes sense, pity it doesn't push out say 280-300bhp (I'm really not sure why they seem to do nothing with the VAG engines they get)
As for people who buy a 60k+ car not being bothered about fuel consumption, why wouldn't they be? They will also be bothered about C02 because that affects right down costs, as many of these cars will be run through a business.
There are lots of people out there that like the idea of a (family friendly) Porsche but don't want to stop every 275 miles for fuel.
And just because a car is efficent doesn't mean it's not fun. (I'm not saying this car will be enormous fun mind!)
Can we please put to rest the delusional credo "this will help Porsche finance development of sports cars".
Check your history. Porsche's turnaround with the Boxster (and platform sharing with 996) allowed them to enter a partnership with VW to develop the Cayenne. I suppose the family ties, despite all the in-fighting didn't hurt either. None of the engines or other major components that might take large shares of development costs are shared across the two major product groups - 98x/99x and Cayenne/Panamera, so even that is not a reason for the existence of the latter two. Porsche has had enough money to develop its sports cars ever since they were able to pull themselves from near-bankruptcy in the second half of 90s.
A company the size of Porsche evaluates each project by its expected return, according to multiple criteria. If a faster 911 has good return (including polishing the sports car cachet necessary to flog V6 Cayennes and Panameras), then they will do it. Porsche manages its lines with such an eye turned for profits that imagining a company of enthusiasts resorting to building less sporty cars and trucks to be able to keep building sports cars has no grounds in reality.
One benefit a wider model lineup does bring Porsche is diversification. Panamera is a good hedge for negative shifts in demand for SUVs, which has been a long time coming despite the high petrol prices, eco concerns, etc. Even reduced carbon emissions probably don't matter much as Porsche becomes part of VW group.
In summary, they are building this car, because the target customers don't care if it's a diesel and why should they? They are buying a sedan and they don't mind the awkward proportions to get a Porsche when they could and should have got an S-class, 7-series or XJ instead. Panamera and Rapide are so pointless, they are not really worth discussing on an enthusiasts' board in the first place.
Check your history. Porsche's turnaround with the Boxster (and platform sharing with 996) allowed them to enter a partnership with VW to develop the Cayenne. I suppose the family ties, despite all the in-fighting didn't hurt either. None of the engines or other major components that might take large shares of development costs are shared across the two major product groups - 98x/99x and Cayenne/Panamera, so even that is not a reason for the existence of the latter two. Porsche has had enough money to develop its sports cars ever since they were able to pull themselves from near-bankruptcy in the second half of 90s.
A company the size of Porsche evaluates each project by its expected return, according to multiple criteria. If a faster 911 has good return (including polishing the sports car cachet necessary to flog V6 Cayennes and Panameras), then they will do it. Porsche manages its lines with such an eye turned for profits that imagining a company of enthusiasts resorting to building less sporty cars and trucks to be able to keep building sports cars has no grounds in reality.
One benefit a wider model lineup does bring Porsche is diversification. Panamera is a good hedge for negative shifts in demand for SUVs, which has been a long time coming despite the high petrol prices, eco concerns, etc. Even reduced carbon emissions probably don't matter much as Porsche becomes part of VW group.
In summary, they are building this car, because the target customers don't care if it's a diesel and why should they? They are buying a sedan and they don't mind the awkward proportions to get a Porsche when they could and should have got an S-class, 7-series or XJ instead. Panamera and Rapide are so pointless, they are not really worth discussing on an enthusiasts' board in the first place.
hornetrider said:
Porsce have made a big mistake with the diesel badging if you ask me. I actually think they've missed a trick... it should be much larger and encompass the entire lower doors on each side like Carrera/GT3 script.
Any photoshop wizards in the house?
Wait...So you want 'diesel' in huge letters on the side of your Porsche? Any photoshop wizards in the house?
king civic! Priceless!! 
Porsche997C4S said:
hornetrider said:
Porsce have made a big mistake with the diesel badging if you ask me. I actually think they've missed a trick... it should be much larger and encompass the entire lower doors on each side like Carrera/GT3 script.
Any photoshop wizards in the house?
Wait...So you want 'diesel' in huge letters on the side of your Porsche? Any photoshop wizards in the house?
If there ever was need for a parrot...The Merc CLS350cdi is surely where this style of 4 door coupe started and the obvious rival. That puts out 262bhp, hits 62 in 6.2 secs and costs from about £46k (although you'd not get one for that!!) Only downside I can see is there's a few of them around (altho not that many of the new shape) and the badge, altho there's no shame in owning a merc?
I would agree that they have missed a trick with the new diesel badge but its not the Carrera script/font that they should have used, they could have run-off another batch of the original diesel badges fromthe tractor as the font is very similar to the PORSCHE lettering on the Panamera's arse already!
Zod said:
If it's true, it's down to gearing. The figures for the Turbo's acceleration are similarly odd.
Gearing and the extra fat turbo'd mid range?E.g. :-
Jag XF 3.0d spec : 271bhp @ 4k rpm and 443lb/ft @ 2k rpm.
(443 * 2000) / 5252 = 168bhp at 2000rpm when you'd expect 135bhp if it was flat.
Zod said:
Bladedancer said:
250hp gives 0-60 in 6.8 in something that big and heavy? I don't think so.
Now let's hear about that new Ferrari diesel town car
If it's true, it's down to gearing. The figures for the Turbo's acceleration are similarly odd.Now let's hear about that new Ferrari diesel town car
This bit puzzles me, however,
Pistonheads said:
...at a pressure of 2000 bar...
IIRC, 1 bar is equivalent to atmospheric pressure at sea level, which is 14.7psi. That's getting on some pretty high pressure!
MogulBoy said:
I would agree that they have missed a trick with the new diesel badge but its not the Carrera script/font that they should have used, they could have run-off another batch of the original diesel badges fromthe tractor as the font is very similar to the PORSCHE lettering on the Panamera's arse already!
There's a man who lived around my way (sadly deceased) who had every single Porsche tractor model. There was the Junior, Standard, Deluxe, and Master, IIRC. He also owned Summit Point Raceway complex in West Virginia, one of the East coast's premiere road courses.Those tractors are really cool, and I'd rather have one of those than this diesel Panamera.
I do have to echo an earlier comment that the Panamera's a grower. While I'd still rather have an XJ or CLS, I don't think the Panamera is nearly as horrendous as when I first saw it. Also agree that they are very nice on the inside.
bobberz said:
Zod said:
Bladedancer said:
250hp gives 0-60 in 6.8 in something that big and heavy? I don't think so.
Now let's hear about that new Ferrari diesel town car
If it's true, it's down to gearing. The figures for the Turbo's acceleration are similarly odd.Now let's hear about that new Ferrari diesel town car
And that's a lighter car with a manual box.
You don't have to convince me to merits of a diesel as I'm driving one, albeit with rought half the power of that Porsche...
Bladedancer said:
bobberz said:
Zod said:
Bladedancer said:
250hp gives 0-60 in 6.8 in something that big and heavy? I don't think so.
Now let's hear about that new Ferrari diesel town car
If it's true, it's down to gearing. The figures for the Turbo's acceleration are similarly odd.Now let's hear about that new Ferrari diesel town car
And that's a lighter car with a manual box.
Remember, it's not about the peak power figure, it's about the area under the power curve. These modern diesels produce a much higher percentage of their peak power through a wide rev range than you would ever get from a normally aspirated petrol engine with the same peak BHP figure. And the moden 7 and 8 speed transmissions help that too. So during a 0-100 acceleration run in D, a car like a 530D or presumably this Panamera is probably delivering an average of more than 200 hp all the way through the run. An N/A petrol engine with the same BHP peak would probably be delivering 180 hp on averrage during the run.
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