Has your 996 or 997 engine had a major rebuild?
Poll: Has your 996 or 997 engine had a major rebuild?
Total Members Polled: 867
Discussion
uktrailmonster said:
Not sure what you mean there? Why would somebody go to the trouble of hiding a 996 engine rebuild? It's usually a good selling point. But if it was done on the cheap by somebody unreputable I guess they could document it as anything they wanted or more likely not document it at all.
Great question and answer all in one there.HoHoHo said:
there have been somewhere around a couple of hundred thousand 997's sold with suspect engines and I can't remember them being featured on Watchdog or similar because there's a major design fault affecting owners.
Out of the whole used a new motor trade, the Watchdog headline 'Older Porsche engines may have issues some indeterminate time after the initial warranty expires, so you may want to extend it to 10 years".Yes, I can really see Watchdog sticking up for all those Porsche owners who didn't take the official warranty.... the BBC luvvies would just love to run that program, oh yes, I can see it now
Globs said:
HoHoHo said:
there have been somewhere around a couple of hundred thousand 997's sold with suspect engines and I can't remember them being featured on Watchdog or similar because there's a major design fault affecting owners.
Out of the whole used a new motor trade, the Watchdog headline 'Older Porsche engines may have issues some indeterminate time after the initial warranty expires, so you may want to extend it to 10 years".Yes, I can really see Watchdog sticking up for all those Porsche owners who didn't take the official warranty.... the BBC luvvies would just love to run that program, oh yes, I can see it now
I think I know what you're saying and I'll try and answer accordingly.
I believe that if the problem were as great as some posters claim it is, there would be more exposure in the press....or if it were as great as some posters believe there would be a vehicle recall......or if it were as great as some posters believe the annual warranty wouldn't be as cheap as it is because lots of engines going pop at £10k per time becomes quite expensive, and if I were Porsche I wouldn't want to lose money.
So no, I don't think we'll see Watchdog discussing Porsche engines in the future. The problem only occurs in a tiny, tiny percentage of cars (otherwise the USA for example would be having a Class Action which they're not) and unless someone can convince me otherwise we should all simply get on with enjoying our toys, warrant them accordingly (because it's a very complicated piece of machinery and other elements can and do break it's wise to have insurance) and move on.
HoHoHo said:
I believe that if the problem were as great as some posters claim it is, there would be more exposure in the press....
The same press advertising new Porsches?Lets face it, no one is interested in these failures, Porsche just want you to buy a new car, the rest are covered under warranty and the poor schmuck left stuck with a broken engine is left out in the cold.
Support for this band of non-super-wealthy car enthusiasts is therefore patchy, we are lucky there is Hartech and some other indies who have given these people an option.
Yes it is a disgrace, it is appalling, but don't be under the illusion the issue will ever go mainstream - it's going to be Porsches dirty little secret for the next couple of decades and will etch away brand pride and image - and that's it.
So yes the problem is great, and I think most engines will fail at some indeterminate time in the future, but this still doesn't make it a great problem. The bigger problem at the moment is the scored bores I reckon, because that's affecting the more recent models, the older IMS/D-Chunk/Oval etc models are in the hands of enthusiasts with no voice.
HoHoHo said:
warrant them accordingly (because it's a very complicated piece of machinery and other elements can and do break it's wise to have insurance) and move on.
And where would one advise getting a warranty on a 10+ year old, 100,000+ mile, 996?Hartech will only do it if they maintain the car, after an inspection and any faults found are fixed (which seems a great deal really). But it's not practical for everybody to avail themselves of that service due to their location. Any others?
If it's as widespread as thought and you suggest, why hasn't Autocar or Evo and any other number of car magazines worldwide written articles on it, questioned Porsche and exercised their journalistic skills - the answer is surely because it's not a problem.
To also suggest 'most engines will fail at some indeterminate time in the future' is something that just can't be substantiated. The poll suggests that's not the case, sure it's a higher percentage than I'd like but it's also only representative of those who seek to post and not the vast majority who simply get in their car and drive it everyday to work or where ever and don't even know forums such as PH even exist!
To also suggest 'most engines will fail at some indeterminate time in the future' is something that just can't be substantiated. The poll suggests that's not the case, sure it's a higher percentage than I'd like but it's also only representative of those who seek to post and not the vast majority who simply get in their car and drive it everyday to work or where ever and don't even know forums such as PH even exist!
HoHoHo said:
To also suggest 'most engines will fail at some indeterminate time in the future' is something that just can't be substantiated.
Its very easy to substantiate that statement actually.Every engine ever manufactured by anybody will EVENTUALLY have a major failure. I am sure we can agree that no engine lasts forever.
The point with these engines is that they have well documented weaknesses that cause a high chance of an earlier than 'average engine life' failure. We could argue all day what that is! Maybe 150,000 miles? It doesnt really matter.
The question is not how many will fail, they all will, its WHEN wll they fail. The answer has to be 'sooner than they should'.
MTR
mollytherocker said:
HoHoHo said:
To also suggest 'most engines will fail at some indeterminate time in the future' is something that just can't be substantiated.
Its very easy to substantiate that statement actually.Every engine ever manufactured by anybody will EVENTUALLY have a major failure. I am sure we can agree that no engine lasts forever.
The point with these engines is that they have well documented weaknesses that cause a high chance of an earlier than 'average engine life' failure. We could argue all day what that is! Maybe 150,000 miles? It doesnt really matter.
The question is not how many will fail, they all will, its WHEN wll they fail. The answer has to be 'sooner than they should'.
MTR
In my case and in order to convince me, I need facts and currently there just aren't sufficient confirmed reports of failures to definitely conclude either way.
HoHoHo said:
In my case and in order to convince me, I need facts and currently there just aren't sufficient confirmed reports of failures to definitely conclude either way.
Wrong, read up on Hartechs analysis of the failures and failure mechanisms.Perhaps you have to have some mechanical 'feel' to understand them, but the facts are abundantly clear, as are the weaknesses.
HoHoHo said:
We could split hairs here, but I understand your sentiment.
In my case and in order to convince me, I need facts and currently there just aren't sufficient confirmed reports of failures to definitely conclude either way.
If I gave you the ratio of replaced/failed/failing engines per cars inspected you wouldnt belive me.In my case and in order to convince me, I need facts and currently there just aren't sufficient confirmed reports of failures to definitely conclude either way.
I have documentation to substantiate this and am aware cars changing ownership dont give a true picture as this is sometimes the point where the "potential or physical problem" gets disposed of hence distorting figures.
Globs and Gary11
I have no axe to grind with you or anyone and I am not simply looking for a fight.
I agree there appears to be a problem, but a wider issue for me is the internet can make a problem for one seem like a problem for all (and just to clarify I'm not suggesting it's only one isolated case!). The poll I started shows that 20% of cars owned by PH contributors have had an issue. What the poll doesn't show us is the fact that there are x thousands of other 997's in the UK all with the 'suspect engine' and we don't know how many have had issues. For example, I don't go down to Mid-Sussex and see a line of 997's waiting for new engines. In fact, I can't remember the last time I did see many cars on ramps with their engine out, and if the problem was as widespread as we are to believe there would be queues of cars. We also don't see thread after thread with owners having problems, but we do see thread after thread of how to cure it and why it's such a problem!
Gary11 - if you've got hard and fast evidence which you are prepared to stand by then produce it - post it on the net for us all to see in black and white....why wouldn't you?
Globs - Hartech have a fix to a problem but that doesn't mean we're all going to suffer the same fate does it?
I have no axe to grind with you or anyone and I am not simply looking for a fight.
I agree there appears to be a problem, but a wider issue for me is the internet can make a problem for one seem like a problem for all (and just to clarify I'm not suggesting it's only one isolated case!). The poll I started shows that 20% of cars owned by PH contributors have had an issue. What the poll doesn't show us is the fact that there are x thousands of other 997's in the UK all with the 'suspect engine' and we don't know how many have had issues. For example, I don't go down to Mid-Sussex and see a line of 997's waiting for new engines. In fact, I can't remember the last time I did see many cars on ramps with their engine out, and if the problem was as widespread as we are to believe there would be queues of cars. We also don't see thread after thread with owners having problems, but we do see thread after thread of how to cure it and why it's such a problem!
Gary11 - if you've got hard and fast evidence which you are prepared to stand by then produce it - post it on the net for us all to see in black and white....why wouldn't you?
Globs - Hartech have a fix to a problem but that doesn't mean we're all going to suffer the same fate does it?
HoHoHo said:
Globs and Gary11
I have no axe to grind with you or anyone and I am not simply looking for a fight.
I agree there appears to be a problem, but a wider issue for me is the internet can make a problem for one seem like a problem for all (and just to clarify I'm not suggesting it's only one isolated case!). The poll I started shows that 20% of cars owned by PH contributors have had an issue. What the poll doesn't show us is the fact that there are x thousands of other 997's in the UK all with the 'suspect engine' and we don't know how many have had issues. For example, I don't go down to Mid-Sussex and see a line of 997's waiting for new engines. In fact, I can't remember the last time I did see many cars on ramps with their engine out, and if the problem was as widespread as we are to believe there would be queues of cars. We also don't see thread after thread with owners having problems, but we do see thread after thread of how to cure it and why it's such a problem!
Gary11 - if you've got hard and fast evidence which you are prepared to stand by then produce it - post it on the net for us all to see in black and white....why wouldn't you?
Globs - Hartech have a fix to a problem but that doesn't mean we're all going to suffer the same fate does it?
..and what the poll doesn't show or indicate is how well these engines were treated from new and by previous owners?? a few fellow posters indicate its non-OPC higher mileage cars that are the ones in discussion....I have no axe to grind with you or anyone and I am not simply looking for a fight.
I agree there appears to be a problem, but a wider issue for me is the internet can make a problem for one seem like a problem for all (and just to clarify I'm not suggesting it's only one isolated case!). The poll I started shows that 20% of cars owned by PH contributors have had an issue. What the poll doesn't show us is the fact that there are x thousands of other 997's in the UK all with the 'suspect engine' and we don't know how many have had issues. For example, I don't go down to Mid-Sussex and see a line of 997's waiting for new engines. In fact, I can't remember the last time I did see many cars on ramps with their engine out, and if the problem was as widespread as we are to believe there would be queues of cars. We also don't see thread after thread with owners having problems, but we do see thread after thread of how to cure it and why it's such a problem!
Gary11 - if you've got hard and fast evidence which you are prepared to stand by then produce it - post it on the net for us all to see in black and white....why wouldn't you?
Globs - Hartech have a fix to a problem but that doesn't mean we're all going to suffer the same fate does it?
which is fair enough.... what any manufacturer cannot legislate for is how well its products are maintained and serviced (inline with its own published guidelines etc) ....
I know a few 997 owners and the there is a huge difference in how/when they maintain and look after their cars... and indeed how they drive 'em!!
HoHoHo said:
Globs and Gary11
I have no axe to grind with you or anyone and I am not simply looking for a fight.
I agree there appears to be a problem, but a wider issue for me is the internet can make a problem for one seem like a problem for all (and just to clarify I'm not suggesting it's only one isolated case!). The poll I started shows that 20% of cars owned by PH contributors have had an issue. What the poll doesn't show us is the fact that there are x thousands of other 997's in the UK all with the 'suspect engine' and we don't know how many have had issues. For example, I don't go down to Mid-Sussex and see a line of 997's waiting for new engines. In fact, I can't remember the last time I did see many cars on ramps with their engine out, and if the problem was as widespread as we are to believe there would be queues of cars. We also don't see thread after thread with owners having problems, but we do see thread after thread of how to cure it and why it's such a problem!
Gary11 - if you've got hard and fast evidence which you are prepared to stand by then produce it - post it on the net for us all to see in black and white....why wouldn't you?
Globs - Hartech have a fix to a problem but that doesn't mean we're all going to suffer the same fate does it?
I would suggest this my friend,take an area say 20 miles around any county perhaps where you live,pick 5 or 6 porsche indys,ring them and ask the question its not rocket science,what I mean is ask people who work on Porsches as a profession rather than merely spouting figures they have read rather than they know from factual personal experiance in the industry,so some one like myself saying out of 20 cars 5 had new engines could be construed by some as 25% failure rate which isnt the case Im merely making the point.I was in a small indy in kent,not high volume and he told me hes changed four engines recently so they are out there.I have no axe to grind with you or anyone and I am not simply looking for a fight.
I agree there appears to be a problem, but a wider issue for me is the internet can make a problem for one seem like a problem for all (and just to clarify I'm not suggesting it's only one isolated case!). The poll I started shows that 20% of cars owned by PH contributors have had an issue. What the poll doesn't show us is the fact that there are x thousands of other 997's in the UK all with the 'suspect engine' and we don't know how many have had issues. For example, I don't go down to Mid-Sussex and see a line of 997's waiting for new engines. In fact, I can't remember the last time I did see many cars on ramps with their engine out, and if the problem was as widespread as we are to believe there would be queues of cars. We also don't see thread after thread with owners having problems, but we do see thread after thread of how to cure it and why it's such a problem!
Gary11 - if you've got hard and fast evidence which you are prepared to stand by then produce it - post it on the net for us all to see in black and white....why wouldn't you?
Globs - Hartech have a fix to a problem but that doesn't mean we're all going to suffer the same fate does it?
app typos BB keyboard.
ForzaWhitesGen2 said:
..and what the poll doesn't show or indicate is how well these engines were treated from new and by previous owners?? a few fellow posters indicate its non-OPC higher mileage cars that are the ones in discussion....
which is fair enough.... what any manufacturer cannot legislate for is how well its products are maintained and serviced (inline with its own published guidelines etc) ....
I know a few 997 owners and the there is a huge difference in how/when they maintain and look after their cars... and indeed how they drive 'em!!
Another urban myth.which is fair enough.... what any manufacturer cannot legislate for is how well its products are maintained and serviced (inline with its own published guidelines etc) ....
I know a few 997 owners and the there is a huge difference in how/when they maintain and look after their cars... and indeed how they drive 'em!!
Full of factual inaccuracy based on rumours!
Gary11 said:
I would suggest this my friend,take an area say 20 miles around any county perhaps where you live,pick 5 or 6 porsche indys,ring them and ask the question its not rocket science,what I mean is ask people who work on Porsches as a profession rather than merely spouting figures they have read rather than they know from factual personal experiance in the industry,so some one like myself saying out of 20 cars 5 had new engines could be construed by some as 25% failure rate which isnt the case Im merely making the point.I was in a small indy in kent,not high volume and he told me hes changed four engines recently so they are out there.
app typos BB keyboard.
I have not 'spouted figures' from anywhere other than this thread (regarding %). For the record I've made contact with a couple of well regarded Porsche Garages (as well as two OPC's) and do you know what - and they all said it's not as big a problem as might be thought - isn't the internet a wonderful thing!app typos BB keyboard.
Now I'm not going to say who they are because they may post on here and it's their decision if they want to get involved in this thread, not mine.
And as I have already asked - you are in a position of authority here, please post the evidence you have for us all to see.
Edited by HoHoHo on Monday 28th November 16:39
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I understood their comments to be more along the lines of it's not happening to as many cars as people might be led to believe. FWIW I think there's a possibility and to cover myself I have a warranty and all is well, I drive it hard, enjoy myself and sleep well 
There's a new thread this afternoon written by a chap who has a Cayman and he's asking should he warrant the car, he knows the possible problems, but should he do it? The existing warranty on the car he purchased was through a third party, worth f-all, and he's asking what to do - but is worried about the engine and a possible large bill. My advice would be regardless of the complexity of these vehicles, it's like any insurance policy - but if you run a car like this without a warranty and you're asking for trouble IMO.
Gary11 said:
Another urban myth.
Full of factual inaccuracy based on rumours!
What is an urban myth? Full of factual inaccuracy based on rumours!
I thought, a fact is only a fact if it can proved to be so?
I don't know how many 997's you've owned, (unless of course you're in the trade... then that figures) but my own 'facts' are based on ownership and my own experiences..... infact of the nine (9) Porsches I've owned and over the 500,000 miles or so driven in said 9 cars, the only failures I've encountered are on a 993 and a 968.........
They're my (MY) facts.
Edited by ForzaWhitesGen2 on Monday 28th November 17:19
HoHoHo said:
I have not 'spouted figures' from anywhere other than this thread (regarding %). For the record I've made contact with a couple of well regarded Porsche Garages (as well as two OPC's) and do you know what - and they all said it's not as big a problem as might be thought - isn't the internet a wonderful thing!
Now I'm not going to say who they are because they may post on here and it's their decision if they want to get involved in this thread, not mine.
And as I have already asked - you are in a position of authority here, please post the evidence you have for us all to see.
Why is 'he' in a position of authority?? Now I'm not going to say who they are because they may post on here and it's their decision if they want to get involved in this thread, not mine.
And as I have already asked - you are in a position of authority here, please post the evidence you have for us all to see.
Edited by HoHoHo on Monday 28th November 16:39
Because poster is in the 'trade'?? Doesn't make him or his organisation an authority.....
I agree that its not a big problem v numbers produced/sold (as I've harped on about before) ...
IF IT WAS..... and with a brand like Porsche..... it would have been extremely well publicised & dragged
through the numerous motoring press & wider media...
ForzaWhitesGen2 said:
HoHoHo said:
I have not 'spouted figures' from anywhere other than this thread (regarding %). For the record I've made contact with a couple of well regarded Porsche Garages (as well as two OPC's) and do you know what - and they all said it's not as big a problem as might be thought - isn't the internet a wonderful thing!
Now I'm not going to say who they are because they may post on here and it's their decision if they want to get involved in this thread, not mine.
And as I have already asked - you are in a position of authority here, please post the evidence you have for us all to see.
Why is 'he' in a position of authority?? Now I'm not going to say who they are because they may post on here and it's their decision if they want to get involved in this thread, not mine.
And as I have already asked - you are in a position of authority here, please post the evidence you have for us all to see.
Edited by HoHoHo on Monday 28th November 16:39
Gary11 said:
If I gave you the ratio of replaced/failed/failing engines per cars inspected you wouldnt belive me. I have documentation to substantiate this and am aware cars changing ownership dont give a true picture as this is sometimes the point where the "potential or physical problem" gets disposed of hence distorting figures.
Seems to have the information to hand.anonymous said:
[redacted]
Re: your postFirst Line = YES as documented by the PH'er with the blown Cayman engine in the circumstance you illustrate.
Third Line = They have kept schtum, yet a few posts prior we have one guy saying a number of OPC's he's spoken to admit to being problems?
Agree it is hard to know how 'big' or comprehensive the problem is, my point exactly.
A 'premium' brand such as Porsche would certainly attract attention from all media corners if it was selling 'faulty' goods.
Not exactly sure what you were saying with your response to my post?
Thanks.
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