Has your 996 or 997 engine had a major rebuild?

[HoHoHo]

mollytherocker said:

HoHoHo said:

To also suggest 'most engines will fail at some indeterminate time in the future' is something that just can't be substantiated.

Its very easy to substantiate that statement actually.

Every engine ever manufactured by anybody will EVENTUALLY have a major failure. I am sure we can agree that no engine lasts forever.

The point with these engines is that they have well documented weaknesses that cause a high chance of an earlier than 'average engine life' failure. We could argue all day what that is! Maybe 150,000 miles? It doesnt really matter.

The question is not how many will fail, they all will, its WHEN wll they fail. The answer has to be 'sooner than they should'.

MTR

We could split hairs here, but I understand your sentiment.

In my case and in order to convince me, I need facts and currently there just aren't sufficient confirmed reports of failures to definitely conclude either way.

[HoHoHo]

Globs and Gary11

I have no axe to grind with you or anyone and I am not simply looking for a fight.

I agree there appears to be a problem, but a wider issue for me is the internet can make a problem for one seem like a problem for all (and just to clarify I'm not suggesting it's only one isolated case!). The poll I started shows that 20% of cars owned by PH contributors have had an issue. What the poll doesn't show us is the fact that there are x thousands of other 997's in the UK all with the 'suspect engine' and we don't know how many have had issues. For example, I don't go down to Mid-Sussex and see a line of 997's waiting for new engines. In fact, I can't remember the last time I did see many cars on ramps with their engine out, and if the problem was as widespread as we are to believe there would be queues of cars. We also don't see thread after thread with owners having problems, but we do see thread after thread of how to cure it and why it's such a problem!

Gary11 - if you've got hard and fast evidence which you are prepared to stand by then produce it - post it on the net for us all to see in black and white....why wouldn't you?

Globs - Hartech have a fix to a problem but that doesn't mean we're all going to suffer the same fate does it?

[HoHoHo]

Gary11 said:

I would suggest this my friend,take an area say 20 miles around any county perhaps where you live,pick 5 or 6 porsche indys,ring them and ask the question its not rocket science,what I mean is ask people who work on Porsches as a profession rather than merely spouting figures they have read rather than they know from factual personal experiance in the industry,so some one like myself saying out of 20 cars 5 had new engines could be construed by some as 25% failure rate which isnt the case Im merely making the point.I was in a small indy in kent,not high volume and he told me hes changed four engines recently so they are out there.
app typos BB keyboard.

I have not 'spouted figures' from anywhere other than this thread (regarding %). For the record I've made contact with a couple of well regarded Porsche Garages (as well as two OPC's) and do you know what - and they all said it's not as big a problem as might be thought - isn't the internet a wonderful thing!

Now I'm not going to say who they are because they may post on here and it's their decision if they want to get involved in this thread, not mine.

And as I have already asked - you are in a position of authority here, please post the evidence you have for us all to see.

Edited by HoHoHo on Monday 28th November 16:39

[HoHoHo]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I understood their comments to be more along the lines of it's not happening to as many cars as people might be led to believe. FWIW I think there's a possibility and to cover myself I have a warranty and all is well, I drive it hard, enjoy myself and sleep well

There's a new thread this afternoon written by a chap who has a Cayman and he's asking should he warrant the car, he knows the possible problems, but should he do it? The existing warranty on the car he purchased was through a third party, worth f-all, and he's asking what to do - but is worried about the engine and a possible large bill. My advice would be regardless of the complexity of these vehicles, it's like any insurance policy - but if you run a car like this without a warranty and you're asking for trouble IMO.

[HoHoHo]

ForzaWhitesGen2 said:

HoHoHo said:

I have not 'spouted figures' from anywhere other than this thread (regarding %). For the record I've made contact with a couple of well regarded Porsche Garages (as well as two OPC's) and do you know what - and they all said it's not as big a problem as might be thought - isn't the internet a wonderful thing!

Now I'm not going to say who they are because they may post on here and it's their decision if they want to get involved in this thread, not mine.

And as I have already asked - you are in a position of authority here, please post the evidence you have for us all to see.

Edited by HoHoHo on Monday 28th November 16:39

Why is 'he' in a position of authority??

Because of his claim earlier.....

Gary11 said:

If I gave you the ratio of replaced/failed/failing engines per cars inspected you wouldnt belive me. I have documentation to substantiate this and am aware cars changing ownership dont give a true picture as this is sometimes the point where the "potential or physical problem" gets disposed of hence distorting figures.

Seems to have the information to hand.

[HoHoHo]

Gary11 said:

HoHoHo said:

Seems to have the information to hand.

FWIW We discussed this on another thread,cars offered for sale are a small percentage of overall cars owned and enjoyed,however call it coincidence quite a lot of cars we inspect have had past present or potentially future faults,to be representative of the real world numbers is difficult IMO its like saying to someone like Baz@ Hartec every car you repair has a new engine thats his buisness!With regard to the OPC claim of not being a problem I saw a pile of engines earlier in the year(I counted 17 units) in an OPC,even when we had the nicasil failure (Jaguar BMW) issue in the mid 90s it was not as bad (and I have to say was better administered and rectified)and wasnt latent engine failure occuring randomly due to poor design and engineering.Thats the issue for every story I hear suggesting certain methods of driving or servicing,not over revving, ect ect the experts rebuilders will tell you the opposite can occour it just is too random to call with many failures at very low mileage.We are even getting reports of late 2.9 Boxsters with scored bores (a much simpler unit).
I cant think of any other quality manufacturer with an engine unit(s) displaying (quoted on a US website)16 possible modes of failure!
G

To try and make some sense of your post, you're saying it's only because you're inspecting cars that faults are being noted, the rest of us who never change them are running around with cars that have the fault, yet are still to be inspected and diagnosed and our engine is going to go bang?

I'll ask again - please post the 'information' you have, because you can chuck as many figures around in a post until you are blue in the face, but until you can substantiate your claim, it means nothing.

[HoHoHo]

Globs said:

HoHoHo said:

I'll ask again - please post the 'information' you have, because you can chuck as many figures around in a post until you are blue in the face, but until you can substantiate your claim, it means nothing.

What type of grade information are you seeking?
I think only Porsche would have the answers you seek, you could write to them - nothing to lose!

Gary11 has suggested as part of his argument he has written information that is very interesting, I've no idea what it's about but I'm interested in what 'it' has to say.

So can he please post said 'information'!

[HoHoHo]

Gary11 said:

Ok so the new rules are we cannot post on here without qualifying every addition or opinion without documentation,I am happy for you to view my postings as meaning nothing,hence its been a pleasure.

No, but if you're going to spout on about how you've got 'written evidence' and use that in a post to defend your position then simply put your money where your mouth is and post it. If you're not going to show us then don't quote it, simply because I could equally suggest I have evidence and written documentation that suggests 80,000 cars are absolutely fine, but I'm not going to share it with you . I'm sure you can scan and erase the private details of those concerned on the documents and we can then all see what's happening.

[HoHoHo]

Gary11 said:

I dont have to show you any thing and I can say I have evidence beacause I have. Any of these replies posted by the trade are ultimately to help retail user/buyers,I would rather not be pulled into your pedantic argument so this will be my last reply to you. I am happy with my experiance and knowledge though still learn every day, and am also happy to help with sharing knowledge to help porsche enthusiasts (which we all are in the end)
Perhaps then in your "proven" word the next engine rebuilder to post on here should be asked to provide documentary evidence before he is belived? To me your introverted cynisim is not based on from what I read any real trade experiance.
Thank you for your reply.

OK - let's agree to disagree, I'm not on a mission to have a bun fight

[HoHoHo]

hartech said:

Thanks for pointing that out - after writing that section I could do with a break (but not that long). Mind you - we know that Porsche owners from all over the UK and abroad - go to extraordinary lengths to reach us - but we wouldn't want them to hire the "back to the future car" to do so!

We actually do not manage our own web site - and anything like that is handled by sub-contractors (so not strictly our fault) but they didn't mess with the section 5 they uploaded for us - so anything on there you can blame me for - although I am sure it will be full of spelling and grammatical errors (so plenty to go at) - but please confine future criticisms to the serious technical issues it is trying to inform people about.

Unfortunately - among my many failings are that I am not a technical writer (well I guess you have worked that out already!) nor a marketing expert - just an engineer with the experience and ability to analyse problems, the resources to test and try things, the equipment to produce good solutions and the capacity to repair faulty engines very well indeed.

When I combine that with a natural disposition to inform and help unfortunate owners when they need good honest advice through a medium fraught with difficulties and full of miss-information - you end up with a massive effort to put it all down in writing - that - for me - was very difficult and time consuming.

At least your response has demonstrated exactly what I was referring to in the section about the difficulties of the Internet and how people cannot wait to criticise with irrelevant or inaccurate responses - which for me has justified the lengths I went to in trying to explain everything - and in so doing has made my Christmas.

In the true spirit of Yuletide - have a happy picky Christmas.

Baz

Hi Baz

Bit of light hearted wine fuelled banter (I deleted it pretty much immediately having realised it may not be as funny as I thought at the time, not quick enough obviously!).

I've read some of the information and it makes for nteresting reading - thanks for the effort (as you suggested it is a long piece and will be read over more than one session!).

No offence intended and Happy Christmas

[HoHoHo]

hartech said:

Hi Dumpy, sorry but despite seeing and repairing loads of cracked and "D" chunked cylinders

Baz

Can you please quantify 'loads' and over what period of time?

[HoHoHo]

Don't think we'll hear from Baz with confirmed figures - he's a businessman and the thought of people being frightened and spending money with him is far better than the truth that there isn't really a problem.

Why let the truth get in the way of making a few bob eh Baz

[HoHoHo]

Gary11 said:

If you based your post on any genuine research at all and posted what you know as fact rather than what you think it would be a help to you and other PHRs.
People who work on and around these cars know there are issues, ask some ring a few indys and specialists!I have inspected many with past and present failures and many with replaced engines,Ive spoken only recently to a small indy in Kent who has changed 3 engines this year (SORRY 2011),the facts are undeniable.
Its not nice to patronise Baz after all the work he puts in on here trying to educate people with his knowledge.
You actually have called him a liar in so many words "Why let the truth get in the way of making a few bob eh Baz" Which TBH is way out of line liar he isnt IMO.

However you look at it Gary, the figures don't stack up.

If he would be happy enough to provide actual confirmed figures I'd be happy enough to read his post (rather than simply writing a figure down on a forum). For the record I have spoken to a couple of respected Indi's who suggest this is over hyped bullst - happy now?

I'm simply after some facts and figures - I can't remember the last time anybody started a thread about their car blowing up, but certain people are happy to discuss the problem and fixes it as if it's a major problem effecting a huge number of cars - and it clearly isn't.

It's equally not good practice to scaremonger if the problem is limited to a very small percentage of cars - so rather than suggest I'm patronising, why doesn't Baz produce some firm figures to back up his claims?

If he were changing 5 engines a week every week of the year and had been for 4 years, I'd agree it's a problem, but I doubt that's the case (that equates to circa 1040 units). I think he's probably changed maybe 12, possibly slightly more, maybe even 20 at a push last year. How many 997's are there running about according to Wiki? 'The 997 is the most commercially successful 911 of all time, having sold 100,000 units between its introduction in 2005 and July 2007'... and that's only up to 2007.

So on the assumption 5% would be deemed a high figure, that's 5000 cars and that's a lot of work/engine failures which we would be hearing about all day, every day, and not only on PH, but on other forums and we're not.

I rest my case......

Oh, and I placed a smiley after my last comment to Baz......

Edited by HoHoHo on Friday 13th January 11:38

[HoHoHo]

hartech said:

Hohoho said "Don't think we'll hear from Baz with confirmed figures - he's a businessman and the thought of people being frightened and spending money with him is far better than the truth that there isn't really a problem.

Why let the truth get in the way of making a few bob eh Baz"

Look hohoho - I don't like the implication that we would not be truthful - we always have been (although many don't like to face it) and what gives you the right to state what my opinions are - you are treading on very dangerous ground and the Internet does not offer you protection to do so - there is a problem - small in number - large in cost!

It was tongue in cheek with a smiley - However, confirmed figures would be good.

hartech said:

I can tell you that we repair several engines/week. They are a mixture of mainly scored bores (mostly), cylinder cracks, "D" chunks, IMS bearing failures, worn tappets (variable valve lift engines) and cracked heads.

So not all from scored bores or D chunks and some for other dealers - thus you may be busy, but not every Indi is the same.

But yet again it appears the scored bore and D chunk isn't a major problem and Porsche engines suffer from similar problems that all manufacturers engines may suffer from, from time to time - tappets, rusted bolts for example

hartech said:

I am also - once again - confused about your logic - you suggest I frighten people to spend money with me rather than admit there is not a problem. People only spend money when they ACTUALLY HAVE A PROBLEM - and then - we become the solution.

A poster last week who's car had done over 100,000 miles mentioned even though he didn't yet have a problem he was curious when he should book his car in to be seen and have preventative measures taken against possible problems - so it does happen, people will spend money before they need to.

hartech said:

Finally - we also provide a very low cost "insurance" against the full cost of an engine repair through our Lifetime Maintenance Plan - in which we would pay for all the labour if an engine failed (hardly trying to exploit the situation - is it?).

A good insurance policy I know and it's priced as it is simply because you know it's not going to cost you a lot, and you are a business - there to make money, not lose it! If you were spending thousands every week on warranty claims, you'd put your policy cost up to cover your losses I'm sure.

hartech said:

When asked generally I always make the point that they are great cars and the failures are very small in number, but to suggest they don't actually occur is just a stupid head in the sand approach (or has other motivations).

So you agree the failures are very small in number, and those who write we should all be sitting at home terrified that our engines are about to implode are incorrect?

I've personally never suggested they don't occur, I simply believe this whole engine problem has been blown totally out of proportion, and in order to get understand the severity of the problem I would simply like to see figures.

Edited by HoHoHo on Friday 13th January 12:10

[HoHoHo]

Baz - you have again missed the tongue in cheek remark! I don't for one minute think you are doing anything other than a good job helping people when they need help and no doubt working very hard at it.

Of course it's your business to or not to divulge figures, however you claim I'm way off the numbers so I can only assume engine failures are in the tens or low hundreds? (that said, it would be really interesting to know the numbers so we can make an informed judgement).

So assuming it's hundreds and as we know Porsche have sold in excess of 100,000 cars even it it were say 1000 cars over the last 5 years (that equates to nearly 4 engines a week, every week by the way!), that would only be 1% of sales volume which is tiny - albeit I accept irritating if you are one of the 1%!

I have been on enough meets now and spoken with like minded Porsche owners who are fed up with scare stories about an engine that is probably 99% reliable and guess what........depreciation!

Sorry if I offended you, it was not my intention (hence the smiley).

[HoHoHo]

Terminator X said:

Poll currently showing 78% of cars have been fine ... 1 in 5 chance of a duff one then

Just out of interest, how would you lot feel about purchasing a 996 that hasn't needed any work doing - would you be less worried or more worried? Mine is 12 years old and seems fine ...

TX.

That's a percentage based on those owners who frequent this forum, the must be 1000's of others who don't and haven't had any problems.

If you are going to own a performance car, have the money to run it under normal everyday conditions. I'd say that's a bigger concern.

[HoHoHo]

Adam B said:

I have read this thread with much interest, including this mini debate. Purely one personal view of course but I couldn't give 2 hoots about production numbers v 933 (911s are two a penny where i live) but the reliability issue has put me off switching to a 911 from my RS4, so I agree with MTR. More specifically the £2k per year cost of the warranty which I see as a necessity because of the potential engine issues. Also increases the purchase price due to the 9 year limit so car would have to be 7 years old max for me. Hartech is a good option but they are in Bolton which is no good for me.

I can afford the 997/996TT I am considering and the much higher service costs but adding the £2k on top is making it hard to justify when I am considering other large outlays, and that I have beem so happy with the RS4.

The warranty isn't £2k btw.

Just over a thousand with breakdown, about £950 without (which I opted for as it was included in my insurance)

Compare that to a BMW M5 for example and it's bloody good value for money.

[HoHoHo]

I wasn't including the 'extras', simply quoting a 997 warranty cost which I think is much the same for a 996.

Tyres are no more expensive than any similar car - as it happens the tyres on my wife's 320D M Sport were more expensive than those on my 997.

When I bought my 997 I had a warranty placed on it and I later found out it had a non Porsche approved battery. I asked if that was a problem and the answer was no. Equally I couldn't have a better sat nav/Bluetooth fitted as that would void the warranty!

[HoHoHo]

hartech said:

For more information - they say a picture is worth a thousand words - so you might be able to understand more by looking at our video available from our web site www.hartech.org.

It is 10 minutes long (which is thought to be too long by video experts who think 2 minutes is the maximum) but we cut it as small as we could. We also had to shoot over 200 shots in 2 days and unfortunately to set all that up for the 100 or so actually used meant a few difficulties getting the right parts in the right place etc (like using parts that had not yet been fully cleaned etc), but we hope it is received as useful and helpful.

When I was involved in the Silver Dream Racer film it was 8 weeks for 90 minutes (and that was with experts and weeks to prepare) so believe me - for us to get all that in within 2 days was really complicated and difficult.

Any feedback would be useful (perhaps on a new posting about it?)

Hope it proves to add to the information we try to provide for owners to understand the problems and solutions available when they have engine problems.

Baz

Appreciate this is not a new thread Baz - however a very good video and very informative. Only comment is I couldn't read the ticker and watch the video at the same time!