Has your 996 or 997 engine had a major rebuild?
Poll: Has your 996 or 997 engine had a major rebuild?
Total Members Polled: 867
Discussion
hungymc - while your confidence in manufacturer’s intentions is admirable - I am afraid it is naive.
They can only exist if they make profit in a competitive market and cannot do so unless they match their product to their competitors.
You have to ask yourself - did you get rid of your old mobile phone because it stopped working or did your wife lobby for a new kitchen with soft close doors or a massive cooker with central island base etc because the old ones were failing? etc - or was it because you/she simply wanted the latest thing? Unlike our parents we all replace products because we feel they are out of date and we want to own and be seen with (and can afford) the "LATEST THING".
Modern production methods mean it is cheaper to make something in such a way that a small number may fail (even if you replace those that do free of charge) than try and make each and every one perfect and this has influenced prices so much that a washing machine costs less than the first one I bought 50 years ago - but if it goes wrong after 6 years I would simply buy another one now. Who now would pay 10 times as much for a washing machine that would last 30 years? almost no one!
Sports cars are amongst the most evocative products that successful people can own and those that can afford to buy a new Porsche will not keep driving around in a 10 year old one just because it still runs OK – even if at 10 years old it is not as long lasting as they used to be.
Manufacturers sell to buyers of new cars and as long ownership generates the image and satisfaction that most would associate with a new car – they have done their job.
Manufacturers do not make profit from spare parts for older cars that are so reliable they keep going without them. It is no coincidence that those replacement spares products that do need replacing in high quantities (like Ims shafts for example) have cynically gone up in price at a higher rate than lower sales volume parts as manufacturers simply try to exploit their own failings for profit.
All we are seeing in the Porsche products is that they now generate enough profit to continue to bring out newer more desirable products that buyers of new prestigious cars want to be seen with – and they cannot do that and sell the volumes they do – if they instead build in extra costs just to enable owners buying 10 year old cars from independent businesses to make them a profit because they have a reputation for longevity – that new cars owners couldn’t care less about.
It is true that 20 or 30 years ago – how long a car would run reliably was a part of the mystique surrounding it that created a good image for a new example – but these days – that has diminished and it is looks, performance, modern features and association with sporting success that drives new sales more.
This is common with all products and manufacturers and fortunately provides scope for some capable independent businesses to exploit to still make ownership of them viable as they age.
Baz
They can only exist if they make profit in a competitive market and cannot do so unless they match their product to their competitors.
You have to ask yourself - did you get rid of your old mobile phone because it stopped working or did your wife lobby for a new kitchen with soft close doors or a massive cooker with central island base etc because the old ones were failing? etc - or was it because you/she simply wanted the latest thing? Unlike our parents we all replace products because we feel they are out of date and we want to own and be seen with (and can afford) the "LATEST THING".
Modern production methods mean it is cheaper to make something in such a way that a small number may fail (even if you replace those that do free of charge) than try and make each and every one perfect and this has influenced prices so much that a washing machine costs less than the first one I bought 50 years ago - but if it goes wrong after 6 years I would simply buy another one now. Who now would pay 10 times as much for a washing machine that would last 30 years? almost no one!
Sports cars are amongst the most evocative products that successful people can own and those that can afford to buy a new Porsche will not keep driving around in a 10 year old one just because it still runs OK – even if at 10 years old it is not as long lasting as they used to be.
Manufacturers sell to buyers of new cars and as long ownership generates the image and satisfaction that most would associate with a new car – they have done their job.
Manufacturers do not make profit from spare parts for older cars that are so reliable they keep going without them. It is no coincidence that those replacement spares products that do need replacing in high quantities (like Ims shafts for example) have cynically gone up in price at a higher rate than lower sales volume parts as manufacturers simply try to exploit their own failings for profit.
All we are seeing in the Porsche products is that they now generate enough profit to continue to bring out newer more desirable products that buyers of new prestigious cars want to be seen with – and they cannot do that and sell the volumes they do – if they instead build in extra costs just to enable owners buying 10 year old cars from independent businesses to make them a profit because they have a reputation for longevity – that new cars owners couldn’t care less about.
It is true that 20 or 30 years ago – how long a car would run reliably was a part of the mystique surrounding it that created a good image for a new example – but these days – that has diminished and it is looks, performance, modern features and association with sporting success that drives new sales more.
This is common with all products and manufacturers and fortunately provides scope for some capable independent businesses to exploit to still make ownership of them viable as they age.
Baz
Which supports what I said earlier, the benefits of all this, to many, outweigh the costs.
There is an innocence / naivety about the whole engineering thing being paramount but ultimately Porsche is a company and not a bunch of enthusiasts, so their product needs to remain viable.
My 911 996 was faultless today on a 150 mile drive in the rain. The only thing that stood it up was a 997 turbo S.
There is an innocence / naivety about the whole engineering thing being paramount but ultimately Porsche is a company and not a bunch of enthusiasts, so their product needs to remain viable.
My 911 996 was faultless today on a 150 mile drive in the rain. The only thing that stood it up was a 997 turbo S.
hartech said:
hungymc - while your confidence in manufacturer’s intentions is admirable - I am afraid it is naive.
They can only exist if they make profit in a competitive market and cannot do so unless they match their product to their competitors.
You have to ask yourself - did you get rid of your old mobile phone because it stopped working or did your wife lobby for a new kitchen with soft close doors or a massive cooker with central island base etc because the old ones were failing? etc - or was it because you/she simply wanted the latest thing? Unlike our parents we all replace products because we feel they are out of date and we want to own and be seen with (and can afford) the "LATEST THING".
Modern production methods mean it is cheaper to make something in such a way that a small number may fail (even if you replace those that do free of charge) than try and make each and every one perfect and this has influenced prices so much that a washing machine costs less than the first one I bought 50 years ago - but if it goes wrong after 6 years I would simply buy another one now. Who now would pay 10 times as much for a washing machine that would last 30 years? almost no one!
Sports cars are amongst the most evocative products that successful people can own and those that can afford to buy a new Porsche will not keep driving around in a 10 year old one just because it still runs OK – even if at 10 years old it is not as long lasting as they used to be.
Manufacturers sell to buyers of new cars and as long ownership generates the image and satisfaction that most would associate with a new car – they have done their job.
Manufacturers do not make profit from spare parts for older cars that are so reliable they keep going without them. It is no coincidence that those replacement spares products that do need replacing in high quantities (like Ims shafts for example) have cynically gone up in price at a higher rate than lower sales volume parts as manufacturers simply try to exploit their own failings for profit.
All we are seeing in the Porsche products is that they now generate enough profit to continue to bring out newer more desirable products that buyers of new prestigious cars want to be seen with – and they cannot do that and sell the volumes they do – if they instead build in extra costs just to enable owners buying 10 year old cars from independent businesses to make them a profit because they have a reputation for longevity – that new cars owners couldn’t care less about.
It is true that 20 or 30 years ago – how long a car would run reliably was a part of the mystique surrounding it that created a good image for a new example – but these days – that has diminished and it is looks, performance, modern features and association with sporting success that drives new sales more.
This is common with all products and manufacturers and fortunately provides scope for some capable independent businesses to exploit to still make ownership of them viable as they age.
Baz
Great post. Thanks.They can only exist if they make profit in a competitive market and cannot do so unless they match their product to their competitors.
You have to ask yourself - did you get rid of your old mobile phone because it stopped working or did your wife lobby for a new kitchen with soft close doors or a massive cooker with central island base etc because the old ones were failing? etc - or was it because you/she simply wanted the latest thing? Unlike our parents we all replace products because we feel they are out of date and we want to own and be seen with (and can afford) the "LATEST THING".
Modern production methods mean it is cheaper to make something in such a way that a small number may fail (even if you replace those that do free of charge) than try and make each and every one perfect and this has influenced prices so much that a washing machine costs less than the first one I bought 50 years ago - but if it goes wrong after 6 years I would simply buy another one now. Who now would pay 10 times as much for a washing machine that would last 30 years? almost no one!
Sports cars are amongst the most evocative products that successful people can own and those that can afford to buy a new Porsche will not keep driving around in a 10 year old one just because it still runs OK – even if at 10 years old it is not as long lasting as they used to be.
Manufacturers sell to buyers of new cars and as long ownership generates the image and satisfaction that most would associate with a new car – they have done their job.
Manufacturers do not make profit from spare parts for older cars that are so reliable they keep going without them. It is no coincidence that those replacement spares products that do need replacing in high quantities (like Ims shafts for example) have cynically gone up in price at a higher rate than lower sales volume parts as manufacturers simply try to exploit their own failings for profit.
All we are seeing in the Porsche products is that they now generate enough profit to continue to bring out newer more desirable products that buyers of new prestigious cars want to be seen with – and they cannot do that and sell the volumes they do – if they instead build in extra costs just to enable owners buying 10 year old cars from independent businesses to make them a profit because they have a reputation for longevity – that new cars owners couldn’t care less about.
It is true that 20 or 30 years ago – how long a car would run reliably was a part of the mystique surrounding it that created a good image for a new example – but these days – that has diminished and it is looks, performance, modern features and association with sporting success that drives new sales more.
This is common with all products and manufacturers and fortunately provides scope for some capable independent businesses to exploit to still make ownership of them viable as they age.
Baz
Not sure if I have posted but I had my 996.2 with 85k miles delivered (with a broken waterpump!) in December and then took it for the Pelican Parts IMS bearing to be fitted and transpired that it needed an engine rebuild...
3 timing chains
6 conrod bolts
3 piston clips
2 head gaskets
24 head bolts
2 camshaft bolts
various washers/seals/fasteners
brake pipes
IMS bearing replace (already supplied by me from Pelican Parts USA)
full service
brake fluid change
+
labour
=
£3.5k (ish)
3 timing chains
6 conrod bolts
3 piston clips
2 head gaskets
24 head bolts
2 camshaft bolts
various washers/seals/fasteners
brake pipes
IMS bearing replace (already supplied by me from Pelican Parts USA)
full service
brake fluid change
+
labour
=
£3.5k (ish)
p4cks said:
Not sure if I have posted but I had my 996.2 with 85k miles delivered (with a broken waterpump!) in December and then took it for the Pelican Parts IMS bearing to be fitted and transpired that it needed an engine rebuild...
3 timing chains
6 conrod bolts
3 piston clips
2 head gaskets
24 head bolts
2 camshaft bolts
various washers/seals/fasteners
brake pipes
IMS bearing replace (already supplied by me from Pelican Parts USA)
full service
brake fluid change
+
labour
=
£3.5k (ish)
Sorry, so I see the head gasket and ancilary parts listing,and IMS upgrade which parts of the engine were rebuilt/failed?3 timing chains
6 conrod bolts
3 piston clips
2 head gaskets
24 head bolts
2 camshaft bolts
various washers/seals/fasteners
brake pipes
IMS bearing replace (already supplied by me from Pelican Parts USA)
full service
brake fluid change
+
labour
=
£3.5k (ish)
seems a strange bill really, put £1200 to it and a Baz and co proper rebuild and modification would have been much better value IMO!
G
mollytherocker said:
So he's warranting it?
So what went wrong with the engine according to your mechanic? ie "what transpired to require a rebuild" the list of parts are not a rebuild why was it stripped ?what had failed? and why did the job escalate over and above the intermediate shaft upgrade?Please confirm if any noises were emenating from the unit prior to works and indeed after repair and any other symtoms leading to this discovery of rebuild neccesity.
Im not being pedantic just curious?
We see many of these where "problems" are chased around the engine copious amounts of money later the noise or defect is stil present.
p4cks said:
No noises at all, no failure of any part. The problems were identified when fitting the new IMS bearing (which I bought as a precaution).
Having the work done will hopefully prevent engine failure in the future.
Hi I am none the wiser! will try it this way apart from the IMS upgrade which part of the engine has been upgraded or replaced to prevent what exactly IE what necessitated the fitting of that list of parts?Having the work done will hopefully prevent engine failure in the future.
3 timing chains
6 conrod bolts
3 piston clips
2 head gaskets
24 head bolts
2 camshaft bolts
various washers/seals/fasteners
brake pipes
Sorry but I assure you the fitting of all those parts will have NO bearing on the strength and future reliability of your engine,I am also fairly sure it wasnt money well spent..if your chains were not noisy aand your head gasket hadnt gone,and also obviously the brake pipes...very odd indeed!
I would get your mechanics Guarantee in writing!
Edited by Gary11 on Sunday 3rd March 10:19
Hi,
Just wanted to add my recent experience in case it may help anyone.
My '56 plate 997 C2S Cabrio had to go into OPC Reading as the engine warning light came on and it sounded like a VW Beetle. It wasn't long before I was told that I may have a major fault with my engine. With only 50K miles on the clock and having let my extended warranty lapse 10 months previously I was none too pleased. Adding insult to injury I was told that an engine investigation would cost in the region of £3K, a rebuild would be £13K so I was best opting for a new engine at £13K with a two year warranty (all excl VAT). It became very clear, very quickly that the OPC's official line is "You didn't protect your investment, we don't want to rebuild it, we know there's an issue with Gen1, 3.8, 997 engines but won't admit it, tough luck".
After speaking to an independent Porsche specialist and trawling through this forum one name kept coming up, Ray Northway. After having a few chats with Ray I had my car collected from the OPC and taken to his workshop where he was already working on a number of engines with the same fault. Cutting a long story short, he re-lined the faulty cylinder (no. 4) and replaced the piston and also re-lined cylinders 5 & 6 to prevent any further issues. All of this was done for a fraction of what OPC Reading were asking. He didn't need to investigate, he knew straight away it was scored bores and even if he was in doubt a bore scope would have told him without some excessive investigative fee. Even the RAC man who helped me roadside diagnosed the fault.
Ray is offering a courteous, knowledgeable and sensibly priced service to Porsche owners and I highly recommend you use him if you have similar issues or even just for servicing etc. I will not be using an OPC services ever again. They are just profit driven, hand-tied workshops and almost arrogant in their approach. Ray will be looking after my car from now on.
Just wanted to add my recent experience in case it may help anyone.
My '56 plate 997 C2S Cabrio had to go into OPC Reading as the engine warning light came on and it sounded like a VW Beetle. It wasn't long before I was told that I may have a major fault with my engine. With only 50K miles on the clock and having let my extended warranty lapse 10 months previously I was none too pleased. Adding insult to injury I was told that an engine investigation would cost in the region of £3K, a rebuild would be £13K so I was best opting for a new engine at £13K with a two year warranty (all excl VAT). It became very clear, very quickly that the OPC's official line is "You didn't protect your investment, we don't want to rebuild it, we know there's an issue with Gen1, 3.8, 997 engines but won't admit it, tough luck".
After speaking to an independent Porsche specialist and trawling through this forum one name kept coming up, Ray Northway. After having a few chats with Ray I had my car collected from the OPC and taken to his workshop where he was already working on a number of engines with the same fault. Cutting a long story short, he re-lined the faulty cylinder (no. 4) and replaced the piston and also re-lined cylinders 5 & 6 to prevent any further issues. All of this was done for a fraction of what OPC Reading were asking. He didn't need to investigate, he knew straight away it was scored bores and even if he was in doubt a bore scope would have told him without some excessive investigative fee. Even the RAC man who helped me roadside diagnosed the fault.
Ray is offering a courteous, knowledgeable and sensibly priced service to Porsche owners and I highly recommend you use him if you have similar issues or even just for servicing etc. I will not be using an OPC services ever again. They are just profit driven, hand-tied workshops and almost arrogant in their approach. Ray will be looking after my car from now on.
Thanks for sharing that - can you tell us how much it cost to fix? Just in case I end up buying one and having the same problem!
cheers
PTN said:
Hi,
Just wanted to add my recent experience in case it may help anyone.
My '56 plate 997 C2S Cabrio had to go into OPC Reading as the engine warning light came on and it sounded like a VW Beetle. It wasn't long before I was told that I may have a major fault with my engine. With only 50K miles on the clock and having let my extended warranty lapse 10 months previously I was none too pleased. Adding insult to injury I was told that an engine investigation would cost in the region of £3K, a rebuild would be £13K so I was best opting for a new engine at £13K with a two year warranty (all excl VAT). It became very clear, very quickly that the OPC's official line is "You didn't protect your investment, we don't want to rebuild it, we know there's an issue with Gen1, 3.8, 997 engines but won't admit it, tough luck".
After speaking to an independent Porsche specialist and trawling through this forum one name kept coming up, Ray Northway. After having a few chats with Ray I had my car collected from the OPC and taken to his workshop where he was already working on a number of engines with the same fault. Cutting a long story short, he re-lined the faulty cylinder (no. 4) and replaced the piston and also re-lined cylinders 5 & 6 to prevent any further issues. All of this was done for a fraction of what OPC Reading were asking. He didn't need to investigate, he knew straight away it was scored bores and even if he was in doubt a bore scope would have told him without some excessive investigative fee. Even the RAC man who helped me roadside diagnosed the fault.
Ray is offering a courteous, knowledgeable and sensibly priced service to Porsche owners and I highly recommend you use him if you have similar issues or even just for servicing etc. I will not be using an OPC services ever again. They are just profit driven, hand-tied workshops and almost arrogant in their approach. Ray will be looking after my car from now on.
Just wanted to add my recent experience in case it may help anyone.
My '56 plate 997 C2S Cabrio had to go into OPC Reading as the engine warning light came on and it sounded like a VW Beetle. It wasn't long before I was told that I may have a major fault with my engine. With only 50K miles on the clock and having let my extended warranty lapse 10 months previously I was none too pleased. Adding insult to injury I was told that an engine investigation would cost in the region of £3K, a rebuild would be £13K so I was best opting for a new engine at £13K with a two year warranty (all excl VAT). It became very clear, very quickly that the OPC's official line is "You didn't protect your investment, we don't want to rebuild it, we know there's an issue with Gen1, 3.8, 997 engines but won't admit it, tough luck".
After speaking to an independent Porsche specialist and trawling through this forum one name kept coming up, Ray Northway. After having a few chats with Ray I had my car collected from the OPC and taken to his workshop where he was already working on a number of engines with the same fault. Cutting a long story short, he re-lined the faulty cylinder (no. 4) and replaced the piston and also re-lined cylinders 5 & 6 to prevent any further issues. All of this was done for a fraction of what OPC Reading were asking. He didn't need to investigate, he knew straight away it was scored bores and even if he was in doubt a bore scope would have told him without some excessive investigative fee. Even the RAC man who helped me roadside diagnosed the fault.
Ray is offering a courteous, knowledgeable and sensibly priced service to Porsche owners and I highly recommend you use him if you have similar issues or even just for servicing etc. I will not be using an OPC services ever again. They are just profit driven, hand-tied workshops and almost arrogant in their approach. Ray will be looking after my car from now on.
The total cost was £4700 plus VAT.
Northway Cars do all the work. Ray actually worked on the car as well as Lee. He has four workshop bays active at any given time all full with Porsches of varying ages and models. I even recognised some of the faces he has working for him from my visits to Reading OPC. When I came to pick the car up my power steering line sprung a leak and dropped the fluid all over the car park. Lee took an olive ring from a stock engine and replaced it free of charge (would have been £85 for a tiny little rubber grommet). I'm glad it happened there and not 30 miles down the road.
Also, the valet chap he uses was excellent.
I now have the scored piston head that he removed as a trophy on my desk.
Northway Cars do all the work. Ray actually worked on the car as well as Lee. He has four workshop bays active at any given time all full with Porsches of varying ages and models. I even recognised some of the faces he has working for him from my visits to Reading OPC. When I came to pick the car up my power steering line sprung a leak and dropped the fluid all over the car park. Lee took an olive ring from a stock engine and replaced it free of charge (would have been £85 for a tiny little rubber grommet). I'm glad it happened there and not 30 miles down the road.
Also, the valet chap he uses was excellent.
I now have the scored piston head that he removed as a trophy on my desk.
A bit of further information, Ray said this fault is most likely caused by one side of the engine getting hotter than the other (cylinders 4 to 6) and a coating placed on either side of the piston head coming away. In the Gen2 997 there is a larger cooling system which may account for no issues with that engine.
If I was in the market for a Used 997 I would either go for a Gen1 which has already had this work done or the Gen2 for peace of mind (and PDK gearbox and touchscreen PSM)
If I was in the market for a Used 997 I would either go for a Gen1 which has already had this work done or the Gen2 for peace of mind (and PDK gearbox and touchscreen PSM)
I must admit, even before all of this happened I was considering a move to the Gen2 for that gearbox etc but now I feel i need to get more mileage out of this car to warrant the cost of the engine rebuild. Ray said he would gladly take my car in part ex against a Gen2 if or when i want to make the change. OPC Reading on the other hand were not interested in the car and offered to take it to a Porsche Auction and charge me £150 plus VAT for the privilege. Another example of their absolutely awful aftersales customer service. Be warned !
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